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View Full Version : Cocked and locked or israeli draw?



Sharrieff
3rd August 2007, 04:19
Those are the two most popular conditions, which one would you pregfer if you had to draw and shoot? C&L is fast but not as appealing, but the israeli draw is a little slower if you don't have slide racking experience, but it sounds cool when you rack the slide if you can. So, which one would you prefer?

ranburr
3rd August 2007, 04:31
The Israeli draw is not popular anywhere but Israel. The only reason it is popular there is because instead of training people on the correct useage of a SA pistol, the Israelis invented this method. How are you going to rack a slide if you are trying to keep somebody off of you with one arm? Cocked & Locked is far more appealing. It sounds like you might prefer a DA pistol or a revolver.

ranburr

dcunited
3rd August 2007, 09:23
If it is on me or in my close control, it is C&L. That is the fastest way to use it and it sounds cooler to get the first shot in. (Well maybe not cooler but it is definitely healthier, if you want a scary racking sound, buy a shot gun. Even that, though, I would probably keep a round in the chamber with the safety on to have one more round and not give away my position should the attacker not be scared off.)

If it is hidden in the room, it is ready for Israeli carry. I have a 10 month old and, even though the gun is well out of his reach, I like having a second precaution against him getting to it. He could not work the slide. It also, in my opinion, is a tad safer should the gun fall from its perch. I plan to get a safe soon and it will be C&L in there for easy use. Racking the slide requires two hands, if you do not want to mess up your sights, and you may only be able to use one to get your gun in service.

wichaka
3rd August 2007, 09:54
The "more than one above" area, is for comparing more than one maker of 1911, not comparing more than one idea of how to do something.

This thread will be moved to the general discussion area.

Frank
3rd August 2007, 10:08
There are a number of reasons why neither condition 2 (round chambered but hammer down) nor 3 (magazine loaded but chamber empty) is a preferred method of carrying a 1911 for self defense.

[1] You can't make an appointment for an emergency.

[2] In an emergency, you may need to deploy your weapon quickly.

[3] If you draw a 1911 in condition 2 or 3, until you can get it cocked, or cocked with a round chambered, you are holding a club (a small one at that).

[4] Condition 2 carry requires lowering the hammer manually on a live round. Also at least in my experience, cocking a 1911 with one hand on the draw stroke is not a particularly quick, graceful or efficient action. And in a high stress situation, your fine motor skills go south.

[5] From condition 2, you may be able to cock a 1911 quickly on presentation using the weak hand -- if you (1) practice and (2) have two hands available. From condition 3, you can quickly rack the slide Israeli fashion on presentation -- if you (1) practice and (2) have two hands available.

[6] Since when and how an emergency may happen are, by definition, unpredictable, you can't assume that you will have two hands available.

For these reasons condition 1 is generally regarded as the preferred way to carry a 1911 for defensive purposes.

I've trained at hot ranges where everyone wearing a 1911 carried in it that way. And indeed those with whom I've trained who routinely go about in public armed with a 1911 would not consider carrying a 1911 in any other way. I've not heard of mishaps arising from that mode of carry.

The 1911 is at heart a fighting gun. When carried about in the course of one's normal business, it is carried as a tool for fighting if necessary. As such it is appropriate to carry it in the manner in which it can most efficiently serve that role. And that manner is condition 1, if for no other reason than that is the only method of carry from which the 1911 can quickly, effectively, efficiently and safely be deployed with only one hand.

When the shoe drops circumstances may require that one's weapon be deployed quickly with one hand. Perhaps the other is needed to ward off an attack, to displace an obstacle or to assist someone to safety; or perhaps you're carrying your groceries at the time.

There are other weapons that can be carried in ways that might appear safer than cocked and locked yet still be effectively and swiftly deployed if necessary -- a double action revolver for example. But IMHO the way to carry a 1911 is condition 1.


DVC

Captain America
3rd August 2007, 14:30
The Israeli draw is not popular anywhere but Israel. The only reason it is popular there is because instead of training people on the correct useage of a SA pistol, the Israelis invented this method....
ranburr


Not True! The Israelis have one of the best trained militaries in the world.
The Israeli Method of Carry is far more popular than you might think.

twin oaks
3rd August 2007, 15:00
Okay, so it's popular. It's paramount to heading into a 'hot zone' with your weapon unloaded, and your ammo in a pouch on the other hip.
[ pretend I just re posted all of Frank's comments here]
Consider that many people who carry a 1911 do so as a CCW. It just doesn't make sense to have the extra steps involved to deploy the weapon if you have 2.34532 seconds to save your (or someone else's) life. For the Israeli military, WHO USUALLY CARRY OPENLY, it might work. Also consider that that type of carry is mandated to them, by the government. I feel that cond.3 is absolutley safer than cond. 1 for everyone- including the bad guy (s).

1911Tuner
3rd August 2007, 17:02
The Israeli practice of carrying in Condition 3 stems from the same reasons that our own military required it. They're afraid that somebody will shoot themselves in the foot or some poor innocent bystander while handling the gun.

While Condition 1 carry is the way I prefer it 99.9% of the time...sometimes I carry in Condition 3. (Occasionally, I even carry in C-2. GASP!)The way to charge the gun with one hand from 3 is to avoid stickin' a smooth ramped rear sight on it...Hook it on the side of your pantleg, and push briskly. Works better with heavy denim, and yes...it'll probably tear your jeans and maybe even a little skin...but in a situation like that, those issues will be the least of your problems.

Pappy
3rd August 2007, 20:01
While Condition 1 carry is the way I prefer it 99.9% of the time...sometimes I carry in Condition 3. (Occasionally, I even carry in C-2. GASP!)

I'm curious Johnny. Under what conditions would you even consider anything other than Condition 1 ???

twin oaks
3rd August 2007, 20:06
Safe Queens?

Norton
3rd August 2007, 20:22
I think that part of the military logic is that you will never be alone. Meaning, someone is going to have time to rack the slide back and return fire; whether it's from a side arm or rifle. The problem is someone may just be sacrificed in the name of safety.
Not the Norton approved way. If you have reason to fear,you better be in condition 1
or better have DA sumpin'. Other wise it's giving someone a free shot.
If I'm turning my cheek it's to locate all the targets 'cause I'm going home.
Just my 2 shekels,
Norton

Frank
3rd August 2007, 20:52
With regard to Israeli carry, it's my opinion that procedures required by any military aren't necessarily based on what is best/most effective/most useful. A lot of PR and political factors go into making decisions about such things.

Also, as far as I know, the standard Israeli sidearm is not a single action auto-loader. I'm not sure what it is, but I suspect that it's one of the popular DA/SA pistols -- probably a version made by IMI.

DVC

Hawkmoon
4th August 2007, 00:23
The Israeli draw is not popular anywhere but Israel. The only reason it is popular there is because instead of training people on the correct useage of a SA pistol, the Israelis invented this method. How are you going to rack a slide if you are trying to keep somebody off of you with one arm? Cocked & Locked is far more appealing. It sounds like you might prefer a DA pistol or a revolver.

ranburr
Perhaps you should do some research before posting off-the-cuff responses.

What we call "Israeli draw" is taught primarily to Israeli Defense Force operatives for the reason that they use several different types of handguns. Some have manual safeties and others do not. Therefore, in order to ensure that all operatives can work with whatever pistol they happen to have, they are all taught to carry in what we call Condition 3 so that the same motion -- drawing and racking the slide while bringing the pistol on target -- works with all pistols.

For them this IS the correct usage, because it responds to their needs. Israeli Defense Forces operatives can execute an "Israeli draw" and bring a loaded and cocked pistol to bear faster than most 1911 mavins can draw a 1911 in Condition 1, release the thumb safety, and bring the pistol on target.

Captain America
4th August 2007, 13:39
... Israeli Defense Forces operatives can execute an "Israeli draw" and bring a loaded and cocked pistol to bear faster than most 1911 mavins can draw a 1911 in Condition 1, release the thumb safety, and bring the pistol on target.


Thank You Sir!

MedSpec65
4th August 2007, 13:49
Condition one is the way to go. Three safeties (slide, grip and brain) should be enough protection from negligent discharges.

Frank
4th August 2007, 14:51
...Israeli Defense Forces operatives can execute an "Israeli draw" and bring a loaded and cocked pistol to bear faster than most 1911 mavins can draw a 1911 in Condition 1, release the thumb safety, and bring the pistol on target.
Very true. But they still need two hands to do it.

DVC

Pappy
4th August 2007, 16:03
Frank, I would think that even 1911, con 1, many have to sweep away the clothing with the second hand. Esp, when CCW...

Frank
4th August 2007, 16:51
Frank, I would think that even 1911, con 1, many have to sweep away the clothing with the second hand. Esp, when CCW...
Yes, if they organize themselves in that way. When I carry, I'm careful to dress so that I can effective dislodge my covering garment and gain access to my weapon with one hand. That's why I wear, when I carry, a jacket, light vest or loose, un-tucked shirt that I can move out of the way with my shooting hand as I move my shooting hand to my gun. I avoid "tuckable" holsters, belly bands and the like.

I'm a firm believer in the proposition that I must be able to deploy my weapon with one hand. There's no way I can rely on having two hand available in an exigent situation.

Ankle holsters and other "deep concealment" arrangements may be fine for a back up gun, but I don't see them being very useful for a primary weapon. Sure, it may be better to have a gun than not having a gun. But if you can't get to your gun when you need it, it's like not having a gun. And it actually may be worse, because now the guy beating you with a brick might find your buried gun and use it on you or someone else.

And sure, a finely tuned sense of situational awareness may, in theory alert you to possible danger so that you can make your weapon more accessible. That is of course unless your sixth sense fails you or the BG's skills of stealth, surprise or luck this one time overcomes your situational awareness.

The less I leave to chance, the more comfortable I am. And remember P6 -- Proper Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance. I'm not going to rely 100% on having two hands available, and I'm not going to rely 100% on my situational awareness always being able to give me enough warning of a "bad thing happening" to be able make a less than ready pistol ready.

DVC

Pappy
4th August 2007, 17:05
Well put Frank.

Personally, I prefer to drop a revolver in the front pants pocket.
If I am in a bad place, then a hand in the pocket is not a give-away.
Or, if approached by BG for money, then reaching into pocket for 'money' would give me the advantage.

Frank
4th August 2007, 17:35
Good thinking Pappy. When the threat is right there in front of you, snubbie in the pocket (especially with your hand on it), is better than a .44 mag buried somewhere under a tucked in shirt.

DVC

Agent 006 &7/8
5th August 2007, 08:52
What we call "Israeli draw" is taught primarily to Israeli Defense Force operatives for the reason that they use several different types of handguns. Some have manual safeties and others do not. Therefore, in order to ensure that all operatives can work with whatever pistol they happen to have, they are all taught to carry in what we call Condition 3 so that the same motion -- drawing and racking the slide while bringing the pistol on target -- works with all pistols.

This is the best arguement for "Israeli Draw" or Cond 3 carry that I have heard. Whether or not Israeli draw is "faster" than a Cond 1 draw is debateable... which is what is occuring here. Having tried the "horse stance" and "face level" cock proposed in the IDF trainig video I'll stick with the old "American 1911" carry/draw.

Frank
5th August 2007, 09:59
I'm not really sure it's a good argument for the Israeli draw. Or perhaps it's a good explanation for the doctrine. But the doctrine has an essential flaw insofar as it assumes that both hands will be available. I'd be curious to know what, if anything, Israeli Defense Force operatives are trained to do if they need their sidearms and don't have the use of both hands.

DVC

doc45
7th August 2007, 22:48
Having spent some time in the company of various Israeli military and security services guys I can assure you that not all of them carry in the "condition 3" mode. All those involved in personal security details I've met carried their Glock 19s & Sig 228s with a round chambered. Back in the early 80s I met a few that carried Hi-Powers c&l. All the guys I met that carried the Jericho pistol would carry chamber empty until they were about to head out to take care of business.

Now for the at-large IDF and armed civilians (fewer than most Americans think) the empty chamber method is used for the exact reason posted earlier-it works with whatever weapon is carried (pistol or long arm).

The 1911 was designed pure and simple to function fine in "condition 1", for those not comfortable with that, there are plenty of other options. Just make sure you practice, practice and practice some more with your chosen method and understand they all have some limitations or specific requirements.

Immortal_Ben
7th August 2007, 23:40
My experience in the service taught me that such moronic policies as weapons carried in condition 3 go right out the window during combat ops. When our policy in Iraq changed to "no round in the chamber on vehicle-mounted crew served weapons while on patrol" it was ignored by everyone I knew.