Need help with a Colt

[XBT]

I have a 1991 A1 that runs good, the fired brass is mostly all ejected in the three o-clock position. On the last shot however, the brass sometimes hits me in the face. Sometimes a jam occurs as shown in picture

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/retiredBT/gun1.jpg

On these jams the base of the brass is jammed down in the magazine lips and the slide is always locked open. Using different magazines has no effect.

I have tensioned the extractor three times, until now it is so tight that I sometimes have trouble chambering the first round from the magazine, although the gun always functions fine while firing. This tensioning of the extractor has helped the problem a lot, but the gun still jams or throws brass in my face two or three times per hundred rounds, always on the last shot.

Any help will be appreciated.

[twin oaks]

YIKES!!! First off, the extractor is too tight if set the way you describe it. Follow the instructions for tensioning the extractor over in technical issues. It should hold a live round securely, but still be able to drop the round if shaken. In the pic, as the round is not in contact with the breach face, I can only presume that the extractor is dropping the round and the slide is crunching it. You need to look at the extractor claw's engagement depth on the rim. Is it seating correctly? Is it rotating so that only the corner of the extractor claw is grabbing the case rim ( aka 'Clocking') Also, are these factory loads, or reloads, and if they are reloads, are you mic-ing the rim diameter and thickness to insure the correct dimensions? You say that you're using different mags- what kind, and specifically, what kind of follower? And, how many rounds does this extractor have on it? I'd check extractor engagement on the last round on RTB first. If you need to fire the pistol to recreate the problem, only load two rounds. If the problem is not present with all your mags, note which ones work, and mark them, then compare them to your other mags. Look at things like follower design, follower angle, and the all important feed lips ( length, shape, point at which the mag releases the round, etc.) Don't tension it anymore, but check the tension it has right after the pistol jams. It might be time to replace it. Good pic, it will help with the diagnosis.

Mike

P.S. Can you get a pic that shows a top view of the jam?

[BigJon]

I think twinoaks is onto something here. Based on everything that was written (already tried different mags, only happens on last shot, extractor way too tight, etc.), I wonder if a combination of clocking and too much extractor tension are combining to cause this. Bear with me here . . .

Let's assume that the extractor is clocking. We already know that extractor tension is too tight. Let's assume that it's clocking to the left (so that the hook is turning down in the port). With excessive tension and incorrect orientation, the extractor could actually pushing down on the rim of the case as it is withdrawn, and push down harder the tighter the extractor tension is. Without the upward pressure of another round in the chamber, it pushes the rim completely out of its own grasp before the ejector has time to do its job.

Have you checked to see if the extractor is loose in its slot - if it can turn?

[twin oaks]

Sumpthin' else . . . is it just the lighting in the pic, or is that a brass coating on the inboard top edge of the ejector ( where it shouldn't be)?

[XBT]

When I acquired this gun the problem was much worse. My thinking was that the extractor was dropping the last fired case before it hit the ejector because there was no more loaded rounds in the magazine help to hold it up in position.

Each time I tensioned the extractor the gun preformed a little better, but the problem never disappeared completely.

The extractor is not worn or broken and is held tight and not clocking. The ejector is not broken and looks normal. I have tried Colt factory, Wilson Combat, and Springfield armory magazines.

I tried ejecting a loaded round and the front of the cartridge clears the ejection port by about 1/16th of an inch, so the ejector couldn’t be much longer.

The ammo is re-loads with my own cast bullets; I have used both 230 grn. RN and 200 grn. SWC. I have miked the rims of the brass and it is in spec. and consistent at about .475.

Twin oaks, it is the lighting; there is no brass on the side of the ejector.

The gun is a full size Colt 1991 A1 series 80.

Thank for your help.

[Hawkmoon]

Is the length of the fired cases in spec?

Actually, I know that's a poor way to phrase it, since there is no spec for fired cases. I guess I'm asking if you trim the cases for length when you reload, or if they might be stretching beyond specified length.

[XBT]

The cases are mixed range pick-ups so the length varies a bit, but I have checked them and none are over length.

[twin oaks]

AAHHHAAAA! A used pistol???? - There's a clew! Of course if this was a new pistol, you'd have already sent it to Colt. Next thing to check- Magazine height in relation to the barrel. Check the barrel bed to see if it looks like it's been lowered. I think what might be happening is that the bottom of the case is hitting the magazine and jerking the rim out of the extractor's grasp. I'll rely on some of the more experienced members for input on the barrel bed. You might look at the numerous mags to see if there's any impact indicators on the front of the follower, and the feed lips. Since this only happens on the last round, I'd think that the extracting brass seriously rides over the next round on it's way to the ejector.
Last thing for now- Is it the correct extractor in the pistol? Sorry if that sounds insulting, but if it's a used pistol, there is the possibility that some things were done and not disclosed . . .or that the pistol was sold because of the problem.

[Ken Grant]

I had exactly the same problem with one of my 1911s. It didn't happen often but just enough to be of concern.
I went through all the steps of checking everything out and really didn't find anything wrong.
Then after a range trip, I stripped it down to clean everything. While cleaning the extractor I noticed just a slight twist in the extractor.
Looking from the rear,it had a slight twist to the left . I didn't have a spare on hand so I gave it a little twist back to the right to get everything back as it should be.
This cured my problem. I fired it several hundred times before the new extractor came in and it never failed again. In fact, the new extractor is still in the package it came in.

[Ken Grant]

I had exactly the same problem with one of my 1911s. It didn't happen often but just enough to be of concern.
I went through all the steps of checking everything out and really didn't find anything wrong.
Then after a range trip, I stripped it down to clean everything. While cleaning the extractor I noticed just a slight twist in the extractor.
Looking from the rear,it had a slight twist to the left . I didn't have a spare on hand so I gave it a little twist back to the right to get everything back as it should be.
This cured my problem. I fired it several hundred times before the new extractor came in and it never failed again. In fact, the new extractor is still in the package it came in.
When I say twist to the left, I mean slight counter clockwise. I gave it a little clockwise to get it working

[Bud White]

isnt the ejector to short for a 1991 a1? looks like the tip is chipped to me

and yeah the extractor set as in the first post is way to tight

[twin oaks]

Hey Bud,
I just checked mine ( same model) and the ejector looks pretty much identical. Cleaner, but identical :)

[XBT]

I can’t see any signs of impact on the magazines, but will investigate that more in the morning.

As to the extractor not being correct, I have no idea and would not recognize an incorrect one unless it did not fit properly. This one seems to fit OK. Here’s a picture of the little devil.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/retiredBT/extractor.jpg

If I can’t figure this all out, I may just buy a new extractor and see if that helps.

[Bud White]

hum maybe ill go look at mine

[XBT]

Ken, I can’t see any twist in the extractor, but before buying a new one I will give this one a twist clockwise and try it. I’m in desperation mode here…..

[twin oaks]

Worry not, XBT, Worry not. I'm trying to help with what I've learned here, and by fiddlin' with my own, but I'm far from the expert. With the length of this thread so far, and the fact that it mentions a Colt, I'm pretty sure Wichaka, John, or maybe even Tuner will chime in and offer some more experienced input. ( No offense to anyone I've missed-)


Turbo coffee served at 0500 . . ... ( <------ Bait ;))

[BigJon]

I went through all the steps of checking everything out and really didn't find anything wrong. Then after a range trip, I stripped it down to clean everything. While cleaning the extractor I noticed just a slight twist in the extractor. Looking from the rear,it had a slight twist to the left.

Yep. That's what I was trying to say. You said it better.


The extractor is not worn or broken . . .

You checked the status of the hook? Correct angle's there? Correct depth? etc?

. . .and is held tight and not clocking.

Is the extractor fitted tightly to the FP stop? Is the FP stop fitted tightly to the slide?

If multiple things in that list are just a hair off, they could combine to cause you trouble, even though each by itself looks like it's probably okay on cursory inspection.

Since this is a used gun, I'd sorta expect some looseness in these tolerances. If you don't have them, then that makes me scratch my head too - could be both good AND bad news - good in that someone may have fitted up some nice tight aftermarket parts, but bad because you don't know what else they did.

[twin oaks]

Ummmm I don't think that's the stock extractor- unless you've polished the blueing right off of it. In the pic, it appears to be stainless. If you have a blued ( or parked) '91a1 your extractor should match if it's stock. At least, mine does.

It also looks WAY bent at the nose- overtensioning?

[Ken Grant]

Sorry for the double post.
With the slightly left twist(counter clockwise), it is the same as if the extractor was clocking to the left and dropping the last round because there was not another rd. under it.
Check and see if the flat area for the firing pin stop and the flat area behind the hook are in alinement with each other.
If they are, you might still try a little twist to the right. It can't hurt and might even help. When I say a little twist, I mean just barely.

[Ken Grant]

Looking at the pic of your extractor,it looks like the bend is close to the hook.
It should be a sweeping bend from the knot to the hook end.

[XBT]

This morning I went over the extractor very carefully. To my inexperienced eye everything looks as it should. I de-tensioned (un-tensioned?) the extractor to spec. as shown on this site.

Then I reassembled the gun without the spring. Opening the slide with an empty in the chamber and an empty magazine in place the brass sometimes “droops” at the front as it clears the chamber. Of course this droop can’t happen if there is another round in the magazine to hold it up.

Measuring from the slide face to the hook on the extractor I get about .075. This is the gap that the rim of the brass fits into. My brass rims are measuring about .045, so there is about .025-.030 slop in this area. I also measured by holding a fired case tight against the slide face and measuring the distance from the hook to the rim of the brass, again I got about .025 excess gap. All measurements were taken by sliding a pin of the correct size into the area and then miking the pin.

What is happening is that when the fired case clears the chamber, the front of the case is dropping down until the hook of the extractor stops the movement. When I initially over-tensioned the extractor the side pressure on the case helped hold it in place and the problem was reduced, but not entirely cured.

Do you guys think the excess gap between the slide face and the hook of the extractor is the problem? Do I need a new extractor?

Should I throw it away and buy another revolver? ( I can honestly report that none of my revolvers spit brass in my face!)

[twin oaks]

Yes, you should just ship it to me, freight included and get another wheelie- PM me for the shipping address :D

[niemi24s]

XBT: Got no experience with Series 80 stuff, but the front part of your extractor looks goofy to me. Get a new Colt extractor - one made by Colt - and IMHO you'll be on your way to a cure.

You'll probably need to adjust the tension on the new one, and may still need to fit an oversize firing pin stop to keep it from clocking (if it does), but the nose geometry ought to be correct. Colt's been making them for almost a century. Anything else is, well, not a Colt! Cheers.

P.S.: And you don't need a new extractor because of the 0.075 inch gap between the extractor claw and breechface - that's about what it should be.

[XBT]

Success---Considering all the good advice offered here and on one other forum the problem is solved.

As a last resort I twisted the hook end of the extractor very slightly counter-clockwise as suggested by Ken Grant. The extractor still looks straight to the eye, so the amount moved was very little. This provided a slightly different “bite” on the rim of the case and as a result the front of the fired case no longer drops as it clears the chamber.

I just returned from test firing and am happy to report that I had no more jams and was not hit by any brass. It still sometimes throws the last round of each magazine out of the pattern, but I think that is the nature of the design. I will buy another extractor and store it away in case the problem returns.

Many thanks to all who offered advice, Jim

P.S. Twin Oaks, Don’t watch your mailbox, I’m gonna keep ‘er.

[niemi24s]

Hi XBT: Glad to hear you fixed it. You are correct about last round ejection being different. It usually is because there's no round below under spring pressure in the magazine to stuff the last case back up under the breech face guide blocks - and the ejector hits it in a different place.

Hi Twin Oaks: Now that XBT's keeping it, you want I should send you a box of Kleenex? :D