NP3 vs. Hard Chrome (daily carry)

[Tech420]

I have been trying to decide between these two finishes for my stainless S&W, so far I have found out the following.

NP3

Pros:
Extreme Corrosion Resistance
Self Lubricating Properties

Cons:
Can be scratched rather easily compared to hard chrome
Some say the finish is to "slippery" and hard to hold
Finish will wear off over time in high contact areas

Hard Chrome

Pros:
Extremely Hard / Durable

Cons:
Rust may form underneath of the hard chrome



I am refinishing for added corrosion resistance and durability as well as aesthetics for my everyday CCW. I prefer the looks of the hard chrome but being that I live in S. FL I am also concerned about rust. Has anyone had rust form on a stainless gun that was hard chromed? If so was it regularly maintained (wiped down daily with a weekly or bi-weekly cleaning)? I regularly maintain my stainless S&W and still have had to deal with small amount of rust mostly under the grips (Crimson Trace) on occasion. I work outdoors in a pretty humid salty environment and carry IWB which comes in contact with lots of sweat.

Please voice your opinions on which finish you think is best for my situation.

Thanks!

[kel]

Hard chrome without a doubt. A proven durable finish.

[pdoppenheim]

If you wipe your stainless down every day it won't rust. (Even if it's not every day it still won't rust) If you hard chrome it will look the same as bead blasted stainless. Get your frame and slide bead blasted to the texture/look that you like and go with that. Then you don't have to worry about rust under the hard chrome.

You don't need to coat a stainless gun for reasons other than to make the gun dark for tactical purposes. As far as that goes, having used a stainless firearm over 30 years in numerous tactical situations (that sounds better than just being plain scared of getting hurt, doesn't it) as an LEO I found that when the gun came into sight for whatever reason I was happy to have people be able to see it more clearly.

[Tech420]

pdoppenheim-

I wipe down my gun everyday but still have had some minor rust spotting under the grips on a couple of occasions. I think it is because of the Crimson Trace grips and there dust covers trapping my sweat underneath of the grip. I used to only take off the grips once a week and clean behind them but now that I have learned they are problematic area for me I try and do it twice a week and I leave a good coat of CLR under the panels and do not wipe it off until the grips are installed. I have not had any rust return since I have started this practice.

Do you think the hard chrome will require the same amount of maintenance? I have read conflicting accounts on the corrosion resistance of hard chrome, everything from it being the same, more and less resistant as compared to stainless steel?

Have you had any experience with the NP3 product from Robar?

[Joni Lynn]

On a stainless gun I'd probably do the hard crome. I just prefer the look.

[pdoppenheim]

Tech,

I have had no experience w/NP3 although it has a good reputation. I have had experience with other proprietary coatings of a similar nature including the Wilson armortuff and Sig's coating. They both work very well, but they do scratch and wear. My gun works for a living so durablity is prime over looks. I never minded the nicks in the stainless or the Sig. The armortuff nicks and scratches seemed to be a bit more obvious. I think (but have no real knowledge other than other user reports) that NP3 will be harder than armortuff. Nothing is harder (including stainless) than hard chrome, but hardness isn't what we're talking about.

Rust resistance is. I'm aware that the grips need to be removed occasionally to allow the metal underneath to be cleaned and oiled. Frequently, people will wipe down the gun and replace the grips unwiped with the same salty sweat still on them. When you pull your grips, wipe the inside of them down with whatever lube you're using to wipe down the gun. Also, clean the area under the grips very thoroughly. The grips hold moisture and bear down on the metal creating a more opportune climate for rust to form. With microscopic pitting occuring, just a wipe will not remove the salty residue.

I spent weeks at a time on a boat without air conditioning. I carried a blue steel firearm at that time. The gun was wiped daily and the grips were removed and wiped about every three weeks. Also, in Michigan for long drives the gun would come out of the holster and go under the driver's floormat. In MI we salt our roads and we do get snow. Not a good climate for a handgun. In all events with blue steel or Teflon I never had a rust problem. With the stainless and the same regimen I also never had a rust problem.

One thing that will rust blue and stainless is storage in a pistol rug or holster. After wiping the gun down at night (or in the morning depending on your shift) place it on a shelf where the air can circulate around it. A particularly good place is on top of the fridge or TV where the warm air can help dry any residual moisture. Obviously precautions re:kids are necessary. My wife stopped me from keeping my gun on the fridge when I used to go into the kitchen and "check" it during every commercial on TV. (I think she heard the door opening.)

Lastly, there are different grades of stainless. Some will rust more easily than others. I'm not familiar with the metalurgy in your firearm so I can't comment on it specifically. But for S&W and Ed Brown there's never been a problem. We had about 50 Ruger GP100s in the agency to try. They were poorly designed and we got rid of them, but they also never rusted.

You might also think about trying a different lube, although, frankly, I've never had a problem with any of the name brands.

[Tech420]

pdoppenheim,

NP3 is actually a electroless nickel plating system, not a paint and bake system like the armortuff. They also claim to be almost impervious to rust with a lifetime warranty on the finish. Also they have I believe it is teflon (not sure) or some other property in the plating system that is supposed to be self lubricating. It claims to be able to dry fire after break-in for long periods of time and smooothing of the over all action of the gun. I would obviously still clean and lube though. The downsize is that it is not as hard as chrome which I think has a value of RC 70-75, I believe NP3 is about RC 50, and the normal heat treated pistol frame is about RC 30.

Im looking for first hand preferably long term experience on this product to see how it wares over time. Because the claims they make sound extremely enticeing to me. If it has proven to be durable for people over time I just may get it. Though its finish is not as pretty as hard chrome, it is a darker battle ship grey finish with a matte appearance.

Also, so do you think that putting the hard chrome on the stainless will make my corrosion resistance better or worse?

[Timothy]

pdoppenheim,
Also, so do you think that putting the hard chrome on the stainless will make my corrosion resistance better or worse?

I've been looking into plating recently and found this out.

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/chrome.htm

Chrome plating can be used for two purposes:

A. Hard Chrome Plate
Usually used to build up shafts or areas on steel that are subject to severe wear. The hard chrome plating process can take several hours to build up. The procedure is discussed extensively in The Complete Plating Manual, paying particular attention to the hard tipping of cutting tools.

B. Decorative Chrome Plate
Most chrome plate is considered 'decorative'. It is a very thin layer, approx. 1/100th the thickness of a human hair, which is applied over a NICKEL plate. Chrome offers NO corrosion resistance, as it is porous, so the nickel does all the protection. The chrome merely gives the nickel a 'blue' look, and stops it tarnishing. Decorative chrome plate can be considered a 'clear coat' over the nickel 'paint job'. This chrome plating kit is NOT capable of decorative chrome plating. If you are interested in decorative chroming, you'll likely want to purchase our Triple Chrome Plating Kit.

[Tech420]

Timothy,

As I understand it only hard chrome can be used on firearms because of the extreme amounts of stress it will be under. I have seen people discuss plating the guns with nickel and then plating the nickel with hard chrome. That process would not only be very expensive but I think the amount of thickness it would take to plate a gun with both may start interfering with the clearance tolerances of the gun. Though if I knew a plater that was willing and confident in plating the gun with both I would be very happy to be able to speak with them. Do you know of any plating companies that have done this? Or have you heard of anyone using both nickel and chrome on the same gun?

[Ping Ping]

Tech,
I havent read that youre set on a silver coating for aesthetic reasons, so why not consider Black-T. This process is used by the Navy for deck guns on submarines. The War Dept specifies 3500hrs in constant salt water as a minimum proving test. When testing Black-T, the manufacturer removed it from the salt water tanks after 7000hrs, because the stainless steel tanks were beginning to pit. No signs of rust, or pitting on the Black-T.
Submarines tend to tool around in salt water, at tremendous depth for 50000+ hrs. When maintaining the Black-T'd guns, they simply hose them down with fresh water and run a greasy patch through the bore.
Black-T is required by the FBI on all it's handguns. Black-T is about as hard and durable a finish as there is. If you drag it accross a concrete sidewalk, you can grind it off, sure, but the same thing goes for NP-3 and Hard Chrome. Since Black-T penetrates the metal surfaces, you run no risk of altering tolerances of any internals, therefore you can treat the entire pistol. Even if you wear the finish on bearing surfaces, you wont see silver metal, rather charcoal metal, meaning that the treatment is still there and still preventing corrosion.

Just a thought.

[Timothy]

Timothy,

As I understand it only hard chrome can be used on firearms because of the extreme amounts of stress it will be under. I have seen people discuss plating the guns with nickel and then plating the nickel with hard chrome. That process would not only be very expensive but I think the amount of thickness it would take to plate a gun with both may start interfering with the clearance tolerances of the gun. Though if I knew a plater that was willing and confident in plating the gun with both I would be very happy to be able to speak with them. Do you know of any plating companies that have done this? Or have you heard of anyone using both nickel and chrome on the same gun?

I have no first hand experience with plating, but I believe decorative chrome as well as hard chrome has been used on firearms and nickle under chrome (hard or decorative) is a standard proccess for some plating companies. Copper is often used first to fill in nicks, pitting and scratches.

I'm still learning about all the options, but I'm leaning towards getting a kit from Caswell and trying it myself. They have a plating forum that runs on the same sofware as this one, you could try asking there.

http://forum.caswellplating.com/

Here's a few links to some of the better firearms refinishers that I've been considering. I'm sure they could answer any questions you might have over the phone.

http://www.apwcogan.com/Refinishing.htm

http://www.trippresearch.com/tech/electroless.htm

http://www.mahovskysmetalife.com/Metalife%20Finish%20Page%202.htm

http://www.coalcreekarmory.com/finishing.php?osCsid=262dac7fe34bbda29d632407edb81f1e

[Tech420]

Ping Ping,

That sounds like a great product but I am looking to stay as close to the look of my bead blasted stainless S&W as possible. It just looks good :D

Thanks for the info

[Tech420]

Timothy,

Thanks for the links I am going to give some of them a call. I hope you are right that a lot of companies do this as standard practice. The corrosion resistance of nickel plus the durability and beauty of chrome sounds like the perfect combination to me.

[Ping Ping]

Ping Ping,

That sounds like a great product but I am looking to stay as close to the look of my bead blasted stainless S&W as possible. It just looks good :D

Thanks for the info

Then I would go with NP-3, for the same reasons as Black-T. Better lubricity, process, rather than a coating, therefore you can have the internals done with no ill effect. Plus, I really like the loo... for silver, that is ;)

Take a look at Dogdollar's Custom Ares Python, which is totally NP-3. MMmmmm, yummy.

[SWAT I]

Noticed this thread.

Robbie Barkman worked on a carry piece for me in the mid-late '80's.

It has an NP 3 finish on the frame. It remains flawless, almost 20 years later. And I wore it driving inflatable boats, small.

[chip p]

Tech420

NP3 Is the way to go hands down , I have a Colt 1991 that I had done in NP3 the entire gun,this stuff is great !!!
very slippery ,so slick that its hard to press check the gun. its been one year that this gun has been done.
I carry this gun every day .I live in Phoenix and I'm a big guy and sweat big time. I wear it in a IWB holster.
I let this gun ride right on my skin,just to test this NP3........NOT A BIT OF RUST in over a year !!!!!
Now as far a wear its been in & out of the holster I don't know how many times, AND NO WEAR it just
shines up.
I have put about 700 rounds on it now and no wear .the barrel hood has shined up but not worn off .after you shoot
all you need to do is wipe her down ,cleans up very nicely.Now the only bad thing I can say is I don't like the color.
They say it looks like duct tape gray , but its more like matte gold or nickel.I would highly recommend NP3

[Coastie Doc]

While hard chrome is very nice it can still chip off and be scratched. I have a Kimber that wears NP3 inside and out. It is by far the best 'silver' type finish I have ever used. Yes, it does show wear, but only slightly on the hard contact points, those being; the barrel and slide/frame rails. The NP3 is not gone, it's still there just more shinney. NP3 is applied by an electrolysis process and it is not 'spray and bake'. It bonds with the metal at a molecular level. I'm in the Coast Guard and have been stationed in all 4-corners of the U.S. and some of the worst weather. NP3 works, no rust, no problems, life time warranty and it looks great. The only other finish I would ever use is Black-T, which is also a non-spray and bake finish and chemically bonded to the metal. But, you wanted info on hard chrome or NP3. I'll stay with NP3 and Robar has great Customer service to boot.

[dogdollar]

I have a beautiful hard chromed Colt and also a customized Colt Python done in NP3.
It's very near to being a wash, as far as I am concerned, but I would have to give a slight nod to hard chrome for all its years of being proven, and the fact that it's a little bit harder and more appealing to the eye.
On the other hand, if I knew the gun was going to have to be recoated again once or twice in it's lifetime, I would opt for NP3. The process is infinitely repeatable with no harm whatsoever to the base metal.
Tim

[dogdollar]

Here is my NP3'd Python. Don't get me wrong - the finish is NOT unattractive, it's actually very uniform and, what I like especially, non-reflective, which might be even better for "tactical" applications.If I had this gun to do over I would do it exactly the same way.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/6401glendale/Gun%20Stuff/Aresleftside.jpg

Here is a hard-chromed SCG for comparison:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/6401glendale/Gun%20Stuff/SCGMacEbnyLftSd.jpg

Hope this helps,
Tim

[Warrior1]

I didn't read all the post so i'm not sure if you've made a decision already but I have a couple guns that have NP-3 coated slides and I've put a couple thousand rounds through each and it still looks great and it truly does have great lubricity. I can personally speak for hard-chrome so I can't give you a good comparison but np3 has been good to me.... Roguard coating on the other hand hasn't been but thats not the issue.....

[johnuf78]

Being in South Florida also and being on the water, I've seen hard chrome guns rust. The problem with hard chrome is that it doesn't get 100% coverage. The main areas I've notice in a hard chrome gun that will rust on the inside part of the frame such as the trigger track. The most corrision resistant finish I've seen so far is a melonite type treatment on stainless. Melonite since it's a hot bath type process seems to get 100% coverage.

[deercop]

Our issue Beretta 96G's were sent from Beretta to Robar for the NP3 finish, before being delivered to us. I've been issued two different Berettas, and on both, the finish flaked off the alloy frame, within relatively short order (less than a year). I've seen quite a few others do the same thing.

On the other hand, I've never noticed an issue with the finish on the slides.

[Warrior1]

Just an fyi the np3 I had done were all on glocks so slide only......

[dogdollar]

Our issue Beretta 96G's were sent from Beretta to Robar for the NP3 finish, before being delivered to us. I've been issued two different Berettas, and on both, the finish flaked off the alloy frame, within relatively short order (less than a year). I've seen quite a few others do the same thing.

On the other hand, I've never noticed an issue with the finish on the slides.

"Issued" by whom?
Just to be clear, are you saying that you have seen NP3 just "flake off" of a firearm in less than a year?
DD

[deercop]

"Issued" by whom?
Just to be clear, are you saying that you have seen NP3 just "flake off" of a firearm in less than a year?
DD

Issued by my State LE agency. And yes, the NP3 has flaked off or pitted off of two of my issue weapons, and I've seen it on many others.

The NP3 was applied before my agency took possession of the weapons. Supposedly they were sent directly from Beretta to Robar and then to us.

[deercop]

This is my second Beretta. It spends it's life in my safe, except to go to tri-annual qualifications (I carry a personally owned Glock). My first Beretta had the finish issues on the entire frame.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa311/gunslinger902/Berettaflaking.jpg

[awmp]

I have 3 glocks that were hard chromed by Tripp and just got back an XD45 that robar did with there NP3 finish. I can tell you the NP3 finish is so slick I have trouble racking the slide now, but is does make for very smooth cycle when shooting.
I'm thinking about getting my Les Baer Slide hard chromed, we will see.

[dogdollar]

Issued by my State LE agency. And yes, the NP3 has flaked off or pitted off of two of my issue weapons, and I've seen it on many others.

The NP3 was applied before my agency took possession of the weapons. Supposedly they were sent directly from Beretta to Robar and then to us.

I intend to investigate this; it is quite contrary to what the public at large has been led to believe about NP3. Here is an opportunity for you to open all of our eyes about how ineffective this (very expensive) treatment is, after all.
What you are saying is that your department orders Beretta's from the factory or your distributor, but before they are issued to the officers, they are sent to Robar and done in NP3 in what I assume is large batches, and that they are then sent to your department by Robar and the finish just flakes and falls off. Is your department still doing this? Hasn't anyone said anything? This sounds like a HUGE waste of your state's taxpayer money.
Can you tell me what state agency you work for, and in what capacity?
I understand if you are reluctant to do so, in case you are doing undercover or expert witness work.
Please send me a PM with contact info, I would like to confront Robar with this info and see what their response is.
We are all looking forward to your response.
Thanks, and thanks also for your service,
DD

[ranburr]

Deercop, I don't believe that the gun was NP3'd. It physically cannot flake. The external finish can wear, but it is really a metal treatment. Thus, even when the finish wears cosmetically, your gun is still protected. The only silver finishes that I know that can can flake and allow pitting are nickle, hard chrome, or one of the painted finishes.

ranburr

[dogdollar]

Give the guy a break, Randy.
After all, he is a LEO who is going out on a limb, even at the risk of civil liability, to tell us all about the REAL DEAL with NP3.
I have eight weeks of use-it-or-lose-it vacation time I've put in for, and I have nothing better to do between now and New Year than to get to the bottom of all of this. I have already emailed Steve and Richard at Robar....this should be quite interesting.
DD

[deercop]

I'm not trying to stir anything or "open" anyone's eyes. Just relaying my experience and observations. So sorry if they offend.

[Roland]

I've been looking into Hard Chrome, it seems like an interesting finish, the matte one anyway. A problem though is I don't know anyone in Finland that hard chromes guns, should I maybe try with some other industry where they hard chrome stuff and see if I can get them to do it? Or does chroming a gun require any special knowledge to get it right?

[Coastie Doc]

Maybe these will help?...Here are some pictures of my Kimber TLEII that has Robars NP3. While this gun has never been carried it has been shot quite a bit. Yes, there is some wear and this is on the barrel hood and slide rails. The NP3 is still there just shinier. I have not had any issues with the finish and Robars customer service was great. Originally, this gun was a two tone. The frame and all internals were NP3'd. The slide had Rogard applied. However, the Rogard began to wear and flake in some areas after the first outing. I called Robar and asked if they would just refinish everything in NP3 and they said, "No Problem". The finish carries a lifetime warranty so it did not cost me anything to send it back and there were no problems. Like I said before NP3 is great and my number one pick for a "silver" finish.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/J-byrd420/DSC01598.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/J-byrd420/DSC01590.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/J-byrd420/DSC01589.jpg

[Warrior1]

I'm not trying to stir anything or "open" anyone's eyes. Just relaying my experience and observations. So sorry if they offend.


No worries deercop I don't think you've offended anybody. You relayed your experience with np3 to us, I think most of us appreciate the real info. My experience with np3 has been good, yours was not.... that's the kind of info we all need.

Thanks for the info!

p.s. I have had over 4 guns sent into robar for custom work (all glocks, sorry guys, haha) and they have stood by everything. If that damage or wear is a result of their doing I would think they would be willing to work something out, I also understand that it is an issued gun and your hands may be tied....

[johnuf78]

I thought NP3 was nickle impregnated with teflon.

[Warrior1]

I'm too stupid to understand any of this stuff let alone explaining what it is... So heres a link with info on np3

http://www.coatingtechnologiesinc.com/services_plating_np3pf.html