What's the word on the WWI's?

[elijdub]

I'm wondering if anyone has heard if Colt is going to continue the run of WWI repro's past the #5000 (or 4000 pistols)? Someone posted last week that they had just purchased number 4999, which means they're close to the end, if they are ending the run.
Just curious.
Thanks

[k217sc]

According to this fellow on another forum, he's got one serialed in the 5000s

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=177584

[elijdub]

Well that confirms it if it's true. I might just have to place a call to Colt tomorrow and see what the folks over there have to say.

[azreloader]

Guess I'll hold off going back to buy that second one. :(

[elijdub]

I'm really curious to know what Colt has to say!

[azreloader]

I've noticed COLT doesn't say much anout anything.

[cajunfj40]

AJC Sports in Clute TX has at least two last week for under $1000..but taxes drive the price up.
Saw some on the online shops as well.
Whatever the count there are a lot less of them than other Colts and still a lot less in numbers than Kimber. :nono:

[azreloader]

Buds has one NIB for $892 right now.

[LoadedColt45]

I'm really curious to know what Colt has to say!


Why do you want to hear what has to say. We already know it's true. Colt is extending the run past 4000 units.

I think that was a good decision on Colt's part. I really believe they need to extend the production run indeffinatly. As long as they are selling, Colt needs to continue to produce them.

I know some people have purchased them as an investment piece in hopes the value will sky-rocket as soon as production has ceased, but that is not going to happen for a very long time.

[clughog]

I just spoke to Paul at Colt Customer Service. He was extremely helpful, as usual. Anyway, he said that Colt is increasing the run of WWI Replicas to 5,000 units but does not plan to extend it beyond that number. He also confirmed that Colt started production at 1,000 (would that be 1000WMK or 1001WMK for the first one?).

He also confirmed that the production run for the WWII Reproductions started with WMK0001 and said that fewer than 2,800 were actually produced.

[Tedfs]

So the WWII's would be the ones to invest in if anyone was looking to do that. I just don't see the point in buying a newly made gun if I'm not going to shoot it though. The manager at Gander Mountain asked me if I planed on shooting my WWI, all I could say was why wouldn't I ?

[Barry in IN]

Real estate and education is an investment.
Guns are for shooting.

[Joni Lynn]

I agree, investing in most firearms isn't the best investment idea.

[azreloader]

I agree, investing in most firearms isn't the best investment idea.

Not when compared with other, more lucrative investment options, but it's:

1) More fun
2) If you buy wisely, you should show a return over the long run
3) Think how much fun it will be looking down from the ever after when your heirs start discovering what you have hiding in your gun safe!

When I was out of work a few years ago, selling my guns was what kept us from going under and losing our house. The last couple of years have been a re-acquisition phase and I'm having a blast. I'm generally being more picky this time around and only buying quality firearms that have a chance to at the very least hold their value, if not gain.

I buy some to shoot and some to keep untouched. That's my personal approach and I don't profess it to be right, wrong or indifferent. Just me having fun and that's what collecting anything should be all about.

I think I'll go find something else to buy now! :D

[Joni Lynn]

I whole heartedly agree with you. I buy them, I use them, I take good care of most of them and one day they'll be adopted by someone else. No one to inherit, so they'll probably supplement my retirement someday.

[Mick_In_Texas]

NEW guns, I've NEVER when I've had to sell one (hopefully never again!) "earned" anything: they've been sold at a large loss to original price I paid.

I don't think folks who say, "You'll always be able to get your money back" know what they're talking about on MOST new/relatively new guns, fired or unfired. I've had some sad experiences there.

Now, I have an ORIGINAL Colt's M1911, and I mean all original, from mid- to late-1918 mfgr, and it MIGHT end up being worth more than I paid, since it's in really great shape. Thing is, that would be LAST one of my guns I'd ever sell, and though I've fired it, and it is 100%, it'll NEVER be fired much.

I also have the WWI Repro. It's been fired and carried. Reason I got one, barely, thanks to folks HERE, was so I could have a "real" M1911 to carry and shoot, NOT for investment purposes. I have, and I have: carried and shot. It's an EXCELLENT firearm. Because I love the platform, it would be the SECOND last one of mine I'd ever sell in a bind. Hopefully not.

While they're BEAUTIFUL pistols... mine is just amazing... whether Colt's continues beyond the originally stated 4000 or not... It's a NEW gun. I just from experience, don't think they're going to skyrocket in value once the run is completed... I'd like to be able to afford a second one, if I could; doubt that will happen either. But as far as the O1911 Model being an "investment" as far as financial gain... I disagree, in general. In certain limited situations, maybe: example, if after Colt's stops producing these (and PERSONALLY, I wish they would NEVER stop!), there might be individual buyers who would personally place a premium on one in great shape... but in general, I don't think "regular" firearms are any good as "investments" for the future. My experience has been, even on "name" brands, the seller gets ripped off. Big time.

I've had offers for my Rock Island and my Colt's O1991; but, nothing compared to what I paid for them. They're not for sale, anyway... I don't mean to pop anyone's balloon, but, I just don't think "normal" guns, including the O1911 Repro, are good FINANCIAL investments. Like Joni Lynn, and others, I buy 99.9% of mine for WORKING guns: plinking, carry, defense, targets, to have, whatever. I bought First Lady, my "real" M1911, because I LOVE the platform, and she is an original one.

Sorry. Just my thinking from experience. Perhaps the WWI Repros will do better than my somewhat gloomy predicition, here; but since like Joni and the majority of us, I CARE for my weapons, guns and knives, I'll just sit on 'em and enjoy 'em.

Y'all take care.
Mick

[cliff731]

That if you just happen to "think" your pretty gun is worth "somethin"... wait till you go try to trade her in!!! :p

[elijdub]

Why do you want to hear what has to say. We already know it's true. Colt is extending the run past 4000 units..
I know now that i've heard it directly "from the horses mouth" that they are extending the run (which is a good thing, IMHO). I didn't know that until i just read it in Clughog's post. Personally, i don't like to get my info from the "other" forum. That's just me though...

Thanks for doing the homework Creighton! Good post!

[azreloader]

I know now that i've heard it directly "from the horses mouth"

That's right. Until we hear it from Mr Ed, it's just heresay!
:lh:

[Bluey]

*whews* And to think I was going to order a O1911 sometime soon! The only trouble I've found is its price. The way Frontier Arms (the Colt wholesaler down here) does business, to order a Colt, I have to pay 50% of its price up front as a deposit. Which means I have to fork out $1025 AUS for the WWI repro (total price is 2050 AUS). This means, I'll have to work much OT as possible but to pay for the deposit, it'll take me at least 6-7 weeks to earn just enough.

I'm wondering, if all this is worth the hassle of getting the WWI repro? I mean, well, after putting the deposit in, I'll have to wait 3 months for it tocome in as it is a special order.

Oh, that reminds me, my Dad has finally received his Bright Stainless Colt .38 Super at the gunshop and he's like a excited kid at Christmas, almost tripping over himself at the sight of his hard-won pistol. I had a good look over it and jeez, my heart skipped a beat because on the slide's side, there it said "Colt Custom". My first time handling a true Colt, the real deal. Just something *special* about a Colt :D

[azreloader]

Glad that other deal came through for your Dad and yes, it's worth it to get the WW1. You'll kick yourself later if you don't! :D

[Bluey]

Azreloader: That's what I thought if I didn't have a crack at it. The WWI is really what I like for my next 1911, no extra bells and whistles. I looked at the Springfield GI but there's troubles between my gun-shop and the Springfield wholesaler here, so Colt is worth having a look despite its high price.

The price alone drawn comments from the guys at my gun-shop. They tell me I should buy 4 Norks for the one Colt and they sure are looking to discourage me away from Colt. Look, don't get me wrong here, I admire Norks for its toughness and its cheap price but still, its features isn't what I'm quite after. I mean, the Nork is 500 AUS and can take quite a beating but to get it to the standard that is a Colt, I would have to pay more down the track.

[azreloader]

I just gotta ask. What's a Nork? Are you talking about Norinco's? Probably a few guys here would trade you a WW1 for 2 Norinco's

[Bluey]

Azreloader: Yeah, sorry, I meant Norincos. Let's say that I'm not a fan of Norinco but admire them for their cheapness and toughness (made out of tool steel). They don't quite appeal to me for some reason, can't find the right words though.

[JustinTime]

Now, I have an ORIGINAL Colt's M1911, and I mean all original, from mid- to late-1918 mfgr

Mick, I thought you had an arsenal rebuild. Did you get another USGI?

[elijdub]

That's right. Until we hear it from Mr Ed, it's just heresay!
:lh:
Good one!
:lm:

[Mick_In_Texas]

Mick, I thought you had an arsenal rebuild. Did you get another USGI?
My M1911 has the Augusta Armory stamp on it, indicating that yes, at some point in time... it went through a "rebuild" or at least, an inspection. However, the hammer, barrel, and frame, and thumb safety, seem to be authentic to the mid- to late-1918 mfgr date, from several sources I've consulted. Don't know her whole history... she'd been rode hard and put up wet, when I acquired her, but was and is in great shape. I don't know when someone "acquisitioned" her, to get her out in the civilian realm. Even her stocks seem authentic, as they have the "heart shaped" stain marks on them on the back.

I paid slightly less for my O1911 Repro than I did for my USGI. I was lucky on my USGI, seeming pretty OEM from the govt contracts to Colt's in the late 19-teens; I was lucky to acquire an O1911. Although I've contacted Mr. Bill Adair in re: refinishing First Lady, I've now declined to do so: Her finish is worn, but with proper maintenance, doesn't and won't have any rust. She's well-lubed, well-cleaned, and well-kept and stored. I want to preserve her, just like she is.

My O1911 Repro, though... I don't know. I've carried her a couple of times, I KNOW the Carbona Blue is not the most wear-resistant finish Colt's has contracted or made; but, these Repros are SO CLOSE to their sisters from almost a hundred years ago... or their grandmothers... mine, is well-finished and well-machined, and is as reliable as time, and as accurate as any purely defensive handgun can be. I wish I could get another for what I can afford now. Reckon I can't, I'm working on a long gun right now... but, the O1911 Colt's is a beautiful gun. I SO wish Colt's would continue to make them as regular production in the Colt's blued, which is BEAUTIFUL on my O1991. I reckon they're not going to. Some folks have gotten duds, I know. But Colt's in every case has made those good. Mine is close to perfect, and I love it. I may eventually have it refinished, NOT First Lady... because I LOVE the original M1911 design, and for me, and my purposes, it works FINE. My O1911 rode with me to San Antonio for this year's state purchasing conference, and I found fellow TxDOT empolyees who are firearms enthusiasts, especially for the 1911 pistol platform. But, I just don't know what the chances are for a Repro model--and the O1911 is VERY well-done, for an early 1918 contract M1911--increasing significantly in value are. I'm gun-shy on firearms as investments, due to limited experience in being taken advantage of on my Berettas and my Smith & Wesson. Not so much my Parked SA Mil-Spec, say, but still... Ohio Ordinance makes a repro or replica of JMB's Browning Automatic Rifle, and if I had the funds, I'd have one, 'cause you can't find an original nowadays; but, not for investment purposes: just to HAVE.

I didn't buy First Lady as an investment: I bought her because she was affordable and she was a DREAM and I LOVE the M1911 as it was originally made. Whether she's been through an arsenal inspection or "rebuild"--which I don't think she was subjected to, with the original mfg run hammer and finish--she's authentic. I love that. I love having acquired her. I was tempted at one time, briefly, to carry her and shoot her more. Folks here talked sense into me, and also on her refinishing. They also helped me deal with my O1911. There are folks who are trying to acquire one, which they'll never shoot or carry; and I UNDERSTAND that. Mine's certainly not on my carry list, usually, or my range list. I have others for that. But, she has been shot, and she has been carried. Like the Colt's Series 70 Repro, I wish Colt's would make the WWI Repro a regular production pistol, NOT to decrease the model's value, but rather to enable folks who want to acquire the design in the original platform.

You and yours, and all y'all, take care, sir.
Mick

[Mick_In_Texas]

Azreloader: Yeah, sorry, I meant Norincos. Let's say that I'm not a fan of Norinco but admire them for their cheapness and toughness (made out of tool steel). They don't quite appeal to me for some reason, can't find the right words though.

Many of us here know that "Norks" are Norincos. They're Chinese 1911s. That's something that I personally have a prob with; but, my dad had a Chinese SKS rifle in 6mm that I so wish he'd have given me a chance at, when he traded it off or sold it or whatever he did. That thing was built like a TANK. After accuritation, it was dead-on out to 250 yards, and reliable as time. It was ugly, yes; but with iron sights, my old man took a number of deer with that ol' thing, and it WORKED. I prefer my Armscor RIA over a Nork, but there are MANY afficiandoes of Norks here on John's forum... I love my Rock, but I can see the appeal of a Norinco. Seems they're good pistols... and I'm not adverse to foreign manufacture, having a Taurus from Brasil which is a FINE pistol, and two Springfields which are also Brazillian, and my Rock and my dad having a Rock I gave him. Folks who are law-abiding, can't always afford "higher end" guns, even though I'm angling for a Bushmaster M4 (yeah, I KNOW, I'm a fan of .30 cal, but what can I say?), and Star and Norinco and Armscor/Rock Island, allow these folks access to quality, reasonably-priced products. I doubt I'll ever be able to afford a Kimber, Wilson Combat, or Ed Brown... and really, since I'm meat and potatoes, and like a working gun, like the ones I have, maybe wouldn't really want a "tight" 1911 since I'm not a competition shooter... But, there's a niche for everything. I don't agree with a "One World Order"; but the global economy, fortunately or unfortunately, is a reality. This as a loyal American and professional purchaser.
There you go. Bluey, I AM SUPREMELY HAPPY THAT YOUR DAD NOW HAS THAT 38!!!! Sir, I LOVE my Colt's Super 38 Govt Model... it's a viable round, and one I prefer over the 9mm, for shooting and carry on the road. Shame that in Queensland and New Zealand, they stick you so bad on prices. Thankfully, your dad got HIS. Good luck on an O1911 Colt's WWI Repro: they're VERY GOOD pistols.
Mick

[Canuck-IL]

What's the word on the WWI's?
Overpriced!

/Bryan

[elijdub]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but i whole-heartedly disagree. Sure, those yahoo's on gunbroker selling for $1400 are out of control, but for the $900-1000 range price, you cannot beat the quality! Made in the custom shop, polished flats, Carbonia finish, walnut grips....they are fine, fine specimens of the m1911 platform. Heck, they're the original m1911 platform!!
IMHO, the are priced accordingly, relative to the cost of other m1911's on the market.

[Captain America]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but i whole-heartedly disagree. Sure, those yahoo's on gunbroker selling for $1400 are out of control, but for the $900-1000 range price, you cannot beat the quality! Made in the custom shop, polished flats, Carbonia finish, walnut grips....they are fine, fine specimens of the m1911 platform. Heck, they're the original m1911 platform!!
IMHO, the are priced accordingly, relative to the cost of other m1911's on the market.



THAT'S RIGHT! :D

[clughog]

Overpriced!

/BryanI think not! Bryan, what someone is willing to pay for one is not necessarily what they're priced at. I'd have to agree with elijdub on this one. Sure it's about $100 more than a Series 70 Reproduciton, but it has a lot more "history" with it as a limited edition replica and a unique subcontracted finish. Cost is somewhere just over $800 and good ones are to be found at a variety of prices...and I've seen a boo-koodle of them offered under $900, so I don't think they're overpriced at all. Just my opinion!

[azreloader]

...and I've seen a boo-koodle of them offered under $900, so I don't think they're overpriced at all. Just my opinion!

Ditto!!!!!!

[Tedfs]

Just a heads up for anyone still looking for one of these, Buds currently has one in stock 7:49 PM EST.

[Joni Lynn]

I think given the fit & finish it's priced about in line with a lot of other guns of similar quality and some of lesser quality. I consider my WW1 to be one of my better purchases this year.

[Mick_In_Texas]

... well, I have to agree with those who say this is a reasonably-priced arm for what it IS, and what it represents. I also agree that some of the auction sellers ARE asking incredibly inflated prices for them; I reckon if they sell one, BOTH parties are happy... I could not have paid $1400.00 for one. I believe I saw one months ago, that the asking price was more around $2000.00. Remeber: that is not COLT'S price, that is an individual's price, what that individual thinks that thing is worth. If they get that... well, caveat emptore.

I got mine for $899.00, not including tax, shipping, and FFL transfer. I've many a gun in my life, and that is my record, except for the USGI M1911 Colt's from 1918. (I was exceedingly lucky on it... for what one in its shape goes for usually. That is a reverse case of the above: the seller was happy with what I paid, and I was DANG SURE happy!) But, as others have pointed out... this is a custom-shop pistol, the Carbona Blue is contracted out, not done in-house at Colt's, it is made from an early 1918 M1911 that was originally manufactured by Colt's, and it is a BEAUTIFUL piece of work. I have laid mine side by side with First Lady, and they are almost twins, other than the wear on First Lady's finish, and her numerous rollmarks from having actually BEEN in the U.S. Government arsenal. They even FEEL the same (I have this crazy belief, that my Colt's all "feel" different than my other two brands of 1911s)... And as someone said, it IS an M1911 in every way--other than the date of manufacture and the newer finish. And THAT is the reason I lusted for one: an M1911 from Colt's that I could actually carry and shoot some, as First Lady's 100% but she ain't gonna be carried and she ain't gonna be shot except rarely (although I HAVE shot her, too, that's the reason I know she's still as reliable and functional as she was 89 years ago).

If I had money to burn... and I don't and we're running out of time, now... I'd buy another WWI Repro for up to $1000.00 in a heartbeat. THAT one might be "preserved"; the first, maybe refinished for a carry and shooting pistol. The only safe queen I've got is First Lady... but, my O1911 is the LEAST carried and shot of my others. Not because she's a perfectly functional defensive firearm, but because... I just can't bear it, as much as I'd like to have a real M1911 in my holster or in my truck. Her value to me, like ALL my good guns, is not so much what I had to give for them... but what they mean to me, in form, function, design, serviceability. I've been in the "seller's shoes" on my Ruger P90--a very good, reliable, polymer refinished .45--and no one wanted to pay what I asked. That's fine. I'll keep her. Don't carry or shoot her much, I LOVE the 1911. But, her value to me remains firm. If buyers don't agree, there you go.

I've also had a NUMBER of folks offer to buy several of my 1911s, not just but including my new Colt's, my WWI Repro included. Problem for them was, from my RIA to my WWI Repro, there IS no selling price: they're NOT for sale. It ain't the money, it's the guns. My value for them is PRICELESS. Hard to meet that price!

MSRP, from Colt's, I don't think is unreasonable for the gun you get with the O1911. But, I never thought I'd be able to afford one if I could find it. I managed, and it hurt my finances. But I real glad I got that thing. It's a reliable, functional, beautiful piece; so is my Rock Island for roughly a third of the price. But, the O1911 has character, and a real history... and personality. To loosely quote "Pulp Fiction": "Personality goes a long way."

Just my 50 cents's worth. Y'all take care.
Mick

[dakota1911]

Have not seen anything on the "gun rags".

[azreloader]

Thought it was time to kick this one up again. I saw one at my local shop numbered in the 52XX range. Wonder how close they are getting to the end of the run, if indeed they intend to stop at 5000 copies.

[mbinky]

I just picked up mine from Kittery Trading Post last week (ordered 8 aug.) serial number 5043WMK.

[elijdub]

I keep hearing that 5000 is the "magic" number. It seems like they're having so much success with this gun (at least in my "circles") that they'd be silly not to continue the run! I mean, why stop a good thing! ...Who knows though... I'm no gun-marketer ;). Other people have agendas and such... I wonder if anything has changed at Colt since Creighton spoke with them in July.
I wish they'd keep making them, at least for a time. I think it was "Mick in Texas" (and forgive me if i'm misquoting) that said that everyone should have a chance to own one. I thought this was a great philosophy....they're such nice guns that it'd be a shame if everyone couldn't have one to shoot.
Anyone have any news (that's not from the "other" forum ;)?

[dakota1911]

Anybody live near there? You missed your chance to go "trick or treat" at the place they make them.

[auto45]

I think the WWI model is Colt's best value...and I'm "cheap"? ;)

If I was "flush", I'd buy two. One to keep and "hold" and the other I'd "carve up" so I could really shoot it!!

[elijdub]

I think the WWI model is Colt's best value...and I'm "cheap"? ;)

If I was "flush", I'd buy two. One to keep and "hold" and the other I'd "carve up" so I could really shoot it!!
I agree! ..best value...

I'd like to do the same thing....one to shoot, one to safe.

[Captain America]

... If I was "flush", I'd buy two. One to keep and "hold" and the other I'd "carve up" so I could really shoot it!!


I bought two.

One to shoot, and one to shoot some more. :D

[Mick_In_Texas]

I wish I could have a second. Looks like that's not going to happen.

They are GOOD guns, and they are faithful to the early 1918 production models on the M1911.

As Joni Lynn says, I have NEVER found guns to be a good "investment" as far as reselling. Once they're shot, you'll rarely ever get what you paid for a modern arm trying to sell it. I do have a USGI M1911 from WWI; it's not for sale, and it's in great shape. I didn't buy it for investment, I bought it because I LOVE JMB's ORIGINAL design as it rolled off the contract assembly line in Hartford, CN. I didn't buy my O1911 for "investment" either: it's been shot, and it's been carried. Not much, but some on both: It was in San Antonio, Tx, in June, with me as the motel gun, and I did have it on the street one day as a Texas CHL holder.

I buy mine, because I'm a law-abiding citizen and firearms lover. I'm also a 1911 platform lover.

But: even though I paid nearly $900 from AJC Sports in Texas for my O1911 WWI Repro, as a "limited production" Colt's, I am one who wished Colt's would make THIS one a regular production gun, even with the Carbona Blue finish. I mean that. It is a faithful reissue of the production M1911s from WWI, and it is a good gun, reliable, accurate defensively, it IS the modern version of the M1911, and THAT is the version I love. I'd have NO problem if Colt's put the O1911 in regular, not limited, production! I would even like to see it in regular with standard Colt's blued finish, or in a stainless steel version... If they did this, maybe the pricing would drop some.

I LOVE both my REAL USGI and my WWI Repro. I'd LOVE to be able to acquire at least one more O1911 in various finish... Colt's did a heckuva job on this reissue, they're very accurate reproductions, and they WORK. They WORK like JMB designed them to. Personally, I wish every one of us 1911 platform fans could have at least ONE. They are as close to the "original" as you are going to get in a modern 1911 pistol. Period.

Y'all take care.
Mick

[TattooPaul]

I wish I could have a second. Looks like that's not going to happen.

They are GOOD guns, and they are faithful to the early 1918 production models on the M1911.

As Joni Lynn says, I have NEVER found guns to be a good "investment" as far as reselling. Once they're shot, you'll rarely ever get what you paid for a modern arm trying to sell it. I do have a USGI M1911 from WWI; it's not for sale, and it's in great shape. I didn't buy it for investment, I bought it because I LOVE JMB's ORIGINAL design as it rolled off the contract assembly line in Hartford, CN. I didn't buy my O1911 for "investment" either: it's been shot, and it's been carried. Not much, but some on both: It was in San Antonio, Tx, in June, with me as the motel gun, and I did have it on the street one day as a Texas CHL holder.

I buy mine, because I'm a law-abiding citizen and firearms lover. I'm also a 1911 platform lover.

But: even though I paid nearly $900 from AJC Sports in Texas for my O1911 WWI Repro, as a "limited production" Colt's, I am one who wished Colt's would make THIS one a regular production gun, even with the Carbona Blue finish. I mean that. It is a faithful reissue of the production M1911s from WWI, and it is a good gun, reliable, accurate defensively, it IS the modern version of the M1911, and THAT is the version I love. I'd have NO problem if Colt's put the O1911 in regular, not limited, production! I would even like to see it in regular with standard Colt's blued finish, or in a stainless steel version... If they did this, maybe the pricing would drop some.

I LOVE both my REAL USGI and my WWI Repro. I'd LOVE to be able to acquire at least one more O1911 in various finish... Colt's did a heckuva job on this reissue, they're very accurate reproductions, and they WORK. They WORK like JMB designed them to. Personally, I wish every one of us 1911 platform fans could have at least ONE. They are as close to the "original" as you are going to get in a modern 1911 pistol. Period.

Y'all take care.
Mick

I'm glad to hear that. I get really irritated with a bait and switch when something in advertised as a limited run and then switched to regular production. i tend to avoid prducrion

[Mick_In_Texas]

I'm glad to hear that. I get really irritated with a bait and switch when something in advertised as a limited run and then switched to regular production. i tend to avoid prducrion

I understand the feelings of folks who paid out, for a "limited production" firearm. That said...

Maybe regular production of the O1911 in a standard Colt's blued finish, versus the outsourced Carbona Blue; that might assuage some of the "collectors's" feelings on a production 1911 "Repro". My WWI Repro is one of the most beautiful guns I've ever managed to get; at the same time, I didn't buy it as an "investment", but, rather, as a good, functional basic M1911 pistol. While that makes me a little different than some folks who've managed to acquire these, I do NOT intend to carry it or shoot it much, good as it is.

My ORIGINAL USGI from 1918, is DIFFERENT. She's fully-functional, but, she IS an ORIGINAL.

The WWI Repros are very beautiful, and well-made, well-finished, and well-fitted. To each their own. In DreamLand, I'd like to be able to afford another, and have it hardchromed or TBlack finished, as a primary carry gun. Ain't gonna happen. Don't have the money.

YES: the original run in the Carbona Blue finish, I think should be held at Colt's original parameters. But, gosh, the gun itself... shame to me for M1911 afficiandos world-wide, for Colt's to only produce 4000 of the WWI Repros, in SOME form or fashion. I'd love to have one in ss, or blued, or hardchrome... they're just BEAUTIFUL. I love my own.

Y'all take care and be safe.
Mick

[Hawkmoon]

YES: the original run in the Carbona Blue finish, I think should be held at Colt's original parameters. But, gosh, the gun itself... shame to me for M1911 afficiandos world-wide, for Colt's to only produce 4000 of the WWI Repros, in SOME form or fashion. I'd love to have one in ss, or blued, or hardchrome... they're just BEAUTIFUL.
Yes, they are beautiful. And I would hope for Colt to sell as many of them as they can make while still maintaining the quality of the first 4,000 ... except for the fact that Colt sold at least 3,500 or so of them to people who had been promised they were buying one of only 4,000 to be manufactured. By continuing to make the exact same pistol, Colt has broken faith with each of those purchasers. They should have made some change, and then continued by making a replica of a different time slot for the M1911, or perhaps making a replica of the original civilian Government model. But to simply sit back and say (in effect), "Oh, we can sell more than we originally planned. Okay, we were only kidding when we said we'd make only 4,000 of them. Thanks, suckers." is simply wrong.

My problem is that I grew up just down the road from Colt, I went to college just a few blocks from the big blue onion dome, and I really like Colt as a company. So it hurts me all the more to see them pulling the same kind of tactics that lesser companies resort to. I would have hoped that Colt's would have higher ethics than this. It's sad.

[Soonenough]

Yes, they are beautiful. And I would hope for Colt to sell as many of them as they can make while still maintaining the quality of the first 4,000 ... except for the fact that Colt sold at least 3,500 or so of them to people who had been promised they were buying one of only 4,000 to be manufactured. By continuing to make the exact same pistol, Colt has broken faith with each of those purchasers. They should have made some change, and then continued by making a replica of a different time slot for the M1911, or perhaps making a replica of the original civilian Government model. But to simply sit back and say (in effect), "Oh, we can sell more than we originally planned. Okay, we were only kidding when we said we'd make only 4,000 of them. Thanks, suckers." is simply wrong.

My problem is that I grew up just down the road from Colt, I went to college just a few blocks from the big blue onion dome, and I really like Colt as a company. So it hurts me all the more to see them pulling the same kind of tactics that lesser companies resort to. I would have hoped that Colt's would have higher ethics than this. It's sad.




Very well put, and my sentiments exactly. Apparently it is profit over one's word

[elijdub]

Yes, they are beautiful. And I would hope for Colt to sell as many of them as they can make while still maintaining the quality of the first 4,000 ... except for the fact that Colt sold at least 3,500 or so of them to people who had been promised they were buying one of only 4,000 to be manufactured. By continuing to make the exact same pistol, Colt has broken faith with each of those purchasers. They should have made some change, and then continued by making a replica of a different time slot for the M1911, or perhaps making a replica of the original civilian Government model. But to simply sit back and say (in effect), "Oh, we can sell more than we originally planned. Okay, we were only kidding when we said we'd make only 4,000 of them. Thanks, suckers." is simply wrong.

My problem is that I grew up just down the road from Colt, I went to college just a few blocks from the big blue onion dome, and I really like Colt as a company. So it hurts me all the more to see them pulling the same kind of tactics that lesser companies resort to. I would have hoped that Colt's would have higher ethics than this. It's sad.
Very well put indeed. I thought the very same thing! People thought they were getting a "collector's item" (in a sense). Frankly, and i'll never stop buying Colts (i think they're the best guns the world over!), i think it was deceitful. I know that's a strong word, but AFAIK they didn't offer those 3500 people their money back, or give them a discount for NOT getting a "1 of 4000" gun.
Don't get me wrong...I think every shooter in the world should get the opportunity to own a WWI repro. It's just kinda' lame for those who bought under false pretenses from an otherwise wonderful company which we all love.

[Mick_In_Texas]

I think that the "original" O1911 SHOULD be limited in production, for exactly the reasons all of you state!

But, as Hawkmoon states, I DO think that Colt's should continue to produce a regular production model of some sort of M1911 "repro". Agree on the finish: standard blued, not Carbona Blue, or stainless. Something "modern". Maybe as Hawk says, choose a different M1911 date, to do so; I have NOTHING against those folks buying/who bought an O1911 WWI Repro as a collector's item. As I've stated, I'd LOVE to have been able to afford ANOTHER one, but I wasn't.

My whole point is this: that many, many afficiandos of JMB's original M1911, will never have a USGI original, as I and many others here have; and those of us who DO, generally it seems rarely if ever shoot them, even if they're perfectly functional, like my First Lady. I am EXTREMELY blessed to have BOTH the USGI from 1918 AND the WWI Repro. I just wish that ALL Colt's and M1911 fans, could have the opportunity to get a Colt's that is made to the 1911 specification. NOT necessarily the current and ending O1911 WWI Repro; but something very similar. A "regular" production pistol, like the Series 70 Reproduction. NOT necessarily identical to the O1911!

I have other brands and Colt's that are variants of the original M1911. Mine are all pretty basic models. But my TRUE love is the M1911, just like it was rolling off the contract assembly line at Colt's from 1911 through 1919. I don't think I'm alone in this. I'd LOVE to see Colt's come out with a REGULAR production "M1911 repro"... not necessarily the O1911 as it currently exists.

Y'all take care.
Mick

[Hawkmoon]

But, as Hawkmoon states, I DO think that Colt's should continue to produce a regular production model of some sort of M1911 "repro". Agree on the finish: standard blued, not Carbona Blue, or stainless. Something "modern". Maybe as Hawk says, choose a different M1911 date, to do so;
Mick, for a pistol to be a replica of an historic firearm, the finish should NOT be modern. But I think you're missing the point. The Carbonia blue finish on the WW1 replicas is an authentic reproduction of the way the M1911 pistols were finshed at one perior during their manufacture. Earlier than when they had that "brushed" finish, the flats were highly polished and then blued. The early commercial Government models received a similar high polish, blued finish. The "black armies," as I understand it, were even later than the period after which the WW1 replicas are copied, and the finish on those is called "black" because the lack of final polishing led to a finish that is more black than blue.

So an M1911 replica could be authentic and yet be different from the current versions (earlier or later), or they could use the same basic pistols to reproduce the original 1911 Government model commercial pistols.

[OD*]

Only one problem, Colt never used Carbonia blue. :p

[Hawkmoon]

I thought the whole point of subcontracting the Carbonia blue finish was to replicate the original blued finish. Did I misunderstand that?

The other recent thread discussing the WW1 replicas identified Ron's Gun Shop as the provider/subcontractor for the Carbonia blue finish. His web site says the following:

We are pleased to announce that Colt's Mfg. Inc. has chosen us to be the supplier of our Carbonia finish on their new, current production 1911 WWI Repro. Our Carbonia finish is the result of years of research into every aspect of how the metal finishers of the day had originally applied this finish to the guns. What we can offer to you, is a finish that is absolutely correct in every detail. Period! If you want the real Carbonia finish on your gun, all you have to do is make the same decision as Colt, and we have it for you!

[OD*]

Nope, you understood it correctly Hawk and it is Ron's doing the bluing on the M1911 (Colt received a batch of slides and frames when me and Hunter were there).

According to Bill Adair;
CARBONIA Heat/Chemical

Now here's one of the most mis-used, least-understood words in the entire bluing lexicon. 'Carbonia' Blue was a S&W proprietary method used in the period from before WWI thru the 1960's. It was also known as 'Smith & Wesson blue'. It was ONLY done by Smith. Never by Colt or any other manufacturer. Carbonia bluing resulted in that deep-black/glossy high-polish finish that Smith was noted for during the years they used it. It's similar to 'DuLite' and Charcoal bluing as far as the process goes, but certainly not the same.

The Carbonia oil (a product of American Gas Furnace Co.) was used by many gun manufacturers in their own versions of 'DuLite' bluing, but the use of Carbonia oil does not make it 'Carbonia Blue' as only S&W did it. DuLite bluing, such as Colt did on their 1918/1919 military model 1911's is an industrial/utility finish. It was generally done over a fairly coarse-polished and/or sandblasted surface, and is a dullish, dark-grey or near-black color when used in that way. It was also far less durable than the S&W Carbonia Blue.

And there's a funny story to go with the S&W Carbonia Blue. I'm telling it like I heard it, and I have no idea if it's true.

The basis of S&W Carbonia Blue was an oil mixture (pine-tar based) made by the American Gas Furnace Company, and they supplied the oil in bulk to S&W, who mixed it with bone charcoal and other 'stuff' to make their own Carbonia product. Years ago, by the way, I contacted the American Gas company for info on the process, and they were kind enough to give me a list of the chemicals/ingredients used by Smith for the process, but it was just a list of chemicals, not a formula.

So, here's the story:

Apparently, only one old-timer at Smith knew the exact formula and he had it in a notebook which he kept. He eventually retired from Smith, and later died. His widow, so the story goes, contacted Smith and offered to sell them the formula in the notebook for $50k. I guess she knew that her husband had the only written copy of the secret formula. Well, Smith had gone into hot-bluing by then, and wasn't really interested in shelling out $50k to her for the Carbonia formula. So, she burned the notebook. And that was the end of Carbonia.

The moral of the story is that all of these companies who now say they do 'Carbonia' bluing, or worse yet 'Colt Carbonia blue', are just you-know-what. Maybe they can do something that looks similar to S&W Carbonia Blue, but it ain't. And Carbonia blue is not Charcoal blue. It's very black the way Smith did it, not blue, and please, Colt never did it.

Carbonia, when applied to a surface that is not expertly high-polished, results in just a so-so utility kind of blue. Time and temperature controls were critical in obtaining the exact color Smith desired.

I've still got the list of ingredients, but there are numerous items on the list, and you'd need to combine them in the correct measures to get the actual S&W formula. I've combined most of the ingredients (or similar ones) in various percentages and at one time did quite a bit of R&D with it, but I never got too interested in pursuing it much further. It was hard enough to find any whale, let alone a sperm whale, so I never had any sperm-whale oil. That was just one ingredient I couldn't locate. American Gas Furnace Company doesn't make the stuff they supplied to Smith any more, so it's a futile pursuit as well as further proof that true Carbonia bluing no longer exists. However, the Carbonia look can be simulated or duplicated by other means.

http://www.restoration-gunsmith.com/artblue.html

[TattooPaul]

I couldn't resist breaking out Mr.Clawson's book, which I have read numerous times and just rechecked before this post. The term "Carbonia" has never been mentioned when discussing their bluing methods.I wonder if this is the oven bluing method mentioned in the coverage of that time period. On page 84 of the '93 edition it is described as a mixture of charcoal and animal bone brought to smolder. Perhaps this is "Carbonia"?

In 1917 they changed to "Colt's Brushed Blue" to address the military's concern about a reflective surface. In 1918 the gas-fired oven method appeared and added petroleum to the method.

As OD had mentioned, I have not come across the term "Carbonia" anywhere in the Clawson, or other books. Perhaps this term refers to the methods that used mixtures of charcoal, animal bone (the sources for carbon) and a heat source - be it gas or coal. Just speculating with my previous ramblings but I find it interesting that this phrase/name is not to be found.

OD, or others, if you find error in what I have posted please post the correct info. I have tried my best to accurate but do not consider myself an expert and there are many other much more well-versed Colt's experts out there.

[TattooPaul]

Wish that previous post would have made it before I started typing my last post… :o

[Mick_In_Texas]

Y'all...

I think Carbona Blue is a modern finish, in that it was developed after the end of the late 1900s, but was close to what my USGI "Black Army" is. I'm like Paul, I don't think that was a "term" in 1918, when First Lady was rolled off the assembly line for the military. Frankly, I can't see much difference between Colt's regular bluing on my O1991. and the Carbona Blue on my O1911. There IS a difference; it's just real subtle. I have heard, again, that the Carbona Blue is not as durable as Colt's regular production bluing.

That said, my WWI Repro is holding up, just like my other 6 1911 platforms. Like I say, I don't carry my Repro, or First Lady, that much, in First Lady's case, NEVER, in my Repro's case, RARELY.

I still maintain, that I wish Colt's would produce a gun similar to the WWI Repro, in regular production: it is a very, very accurate repro/copy/reissue of the M1911, as JMB designed the testing prototype, and as Colt produced them in WWI. Even Carbona Blue; but I wouldn't think that that would be profitable to Colt in a "mass-produced" gun, versus a "collector's gun".

But, having Springer's GI45 and Mil-Spec, and Colt's M1911 USGI and WWI Repro, I'd LOVE to have a Colt's M1911 modern in ss or nickel or "regular blue" or hard chrome. I think sometimes about having my O1911 hard-chromed so I could carry it and shoot it more; yet, that Carbona finish is SO beautiful, and the original finish...

There you go. Doubt I'll ever change the O1911.

Y'all take care.
Mick

[mtngunr]

As laudable as the "keep making them until everyone has one" sentiment is, the ugly truth is that not everyone can afford one, nor does everyone want one....current sales figures for brands/models will show what everyone wants, and currently that would be a more "enhanced/improved/whiter/brighter/fresher smelling" version....and Colt certainly can't afford to continue making a gun until the market is over-saturated and their inventory sits unsold, an inventory they spent a lot of time/money/materials to make......neither do folk who own Colts want a saturated market, which will only drive down prices on used guns.....Colt is trying to walk a fine line here, sell enough to remain solvent, but not sell too many and drive prices down while alienating all the folks who bought hoping for better resale value........I constantly see HD mentioned here in comparison, and they make a good object lesson.....8-9yrs ago, demand was high enough with waits to match, you could ride your HD for a year and still get your money back....now, with increased production, no waits, and a saturated market, they depreciate like anything else.....

[Mick_In_Texas]

As laudable as the "keep making them until everyone has one" sentiment is, the ugly truth is that not everyone can afford one, nor does everyone want one....current sales figures for brands/models will show what everyone wants, and currently that would be a more "enhanced/improved/whiter/brighter/fresher smelling" version....and Colt certainly can't afford to continue making a gun until the market is over-saturated and their inventory sits unsold, an inventory they spent a lot of time/money/materials to make......neither do folk who own Colts want a saturated market, which will only drive down prices on used guns.....Colt is trying to walk a fine line here, sell enough to remain solvent, but not sell too many and drive prices down while alienating all the folks who bought hoping for better resale value........I constantly see HD mentioned here in comparison, and they make a good object lesson.....8-9yrs ago, demand was high enough with waits to match, you could ride your HD for a year and still get your money back....now, with increased production, no waits, and a saturated market, they depreciate like anything else.....

My point is, I just wish Colt's, after the run on the O1911 WWI Repro, would add something similar to their "regular" lineup. NOT necessary the WWI Repro. Yes, there are many folks who want lots of "bells and whistles" on a 1911/A1; but, there are indeed many of us who like 'em basic: witness the success of Springer's GI45 lineup, which are pretty basic.

It's true that not everyone can afford the WWI Repro: I barely got mine, myself. I have four Colts, one an original USGI from late 1918; I also have the Rock Island Armory basic 1911A1 w/flat msh. In a free economy where there is competition, regardles of the product, a company has to make money on its investment; production costs, raw materials, advertising, salaries, utilities for the facility/ies, unsold inventory, are all costs. I do think Colt's, like HD, has had its ups and downs... I still remember when HD was briefly owned by AMF, and the quality just... was not good. I don't really have anything against Colt's sticking to their "run" on the O1911. But, I DO wish, as stated, that they'd come out with something similar in a very basic 1911/A1. I do think there'd be a market for it.

Have no prob with folks who buy guns for investment purposes; I don't. I buy them to shoot and carry. Have no prob with folks who like the high-ends, with various modifications and bells and whistles; just not my preference. Kimber, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, make good guns for what they are designed for; at the same time, so does Colt's, Springfield Armory, and Rock Island Armory. And Star and Charles Daniels. That's the BEAUTY of this wonderful platform: SO MUCH variety!!! At the root, they're "all the same" (platform); but, prices, features, modifications, all that, INFINITE variety! There's just no other pistol like Ol' Slabsides. And that's why there are SO many afficiandoes around the world... from our El Jefe in Greece, to Europe, to South America, to Canada, to Canada, to England, wherever... We all have our preferences, but as you say, we gotta go with what is available. Everyone's entitled to their preferences and wants... and just 'cause I personally would "like to see something" doesn't mean it's PROFITABLE. Nothin' wrong with dreamin'; whatever... I'm real happy with the 7 I've got already, and I reckon I ain't through with them YET.

You, and all y'all, take care.
Mick

[Joni Lynn]

Well, maybe after the WW1 has been put to bed they'll consider making a 1930's National Match complete with the Stevens style adjustable rear sight.

[Hawkmoon]

the ugly truth is that not everyone can afford one, nor does everyone want one....current sales figures for brands/models will show what everyone wants, and currently that would be a more "enhanced/improved/whiter/brighter/fresher smelling" version....
One should never generalize. The fact that Kimber sells so many gussied up 1911s is certainly proof that a great many people are impressed by cosmetic "features," but "a great many" is not "everyone." I don't want that stuff. What I want is a clean, plain vanilla Combat Commander, complete with vertical cocking serrations at the rear of the slide only, and without any firing pin safeties or other nonsense. The nearest I can find on the market for less than $1,000 is the Colt 1991 Commander in blue, or the Para-Ordnance LTC. Both fine pistols, selling for a fair/reasonable price ... but both equipped with firing pin safeties.

I suspect if you were to take a poll here on this forum site, you would find a high percentage (maybe even a majority) would prefer an original, basic M1911 over one of your "enhanced/improved/whiter/brighter/fresher smelling" versions.

[mtngunr]

One should never generalize. The fact that Kimber sells so many gussied up 1911s is certainly proof that a great many people are impressed by cosmetic "features," but "a great many" is not "everyone." I don't want that stuff. What I want is a clean, plain vanilla Combat Commander, complete with vertical cocking serrations at the rear of the slide only, and without any firing pin safeties or other nonsense. The nearest I can find on the market for less than $1,000 is the Colt 1991 Commander in blue, or the Para-Ordnance LTC. Both fine pistols, selling for a fair/reasonable price ... but both equipped with firing pin safeties.

I suspect if you were to take a poll here on this forum site, you would find a high percentage (maybe even a majority) would prefer an original, basic M1911 over one of your "enhanced/improved/whiter/brighter/fresher smelling" versions.

Well,....if you want to quibble over my choice of words on a 1911-for-everyone vs. everyone-don't-want-one (and the "don't" is intentional), that's fine, but "everyone" and "everyman" are phrases often used to suggest Joe Average, and not to be taken literally....but the companies make most of what sells most, and I'm pretty sure if you tallied up the sales figures, fancied up guns from all makers would vastly outnumber the plainer guns....revenues would definitely be higher, as most plainer guns don't have the profit margins.....I'm inclined to agree with you on your poll results, but admit such a generalization is invalid except for me....the "over one of YOUR 'enhanced/improved/whiter/brighter/fresher smelling' versions" remark is also off the mark, as I only own one 1911 and it's as plain as they come....plainer, actually.....

[elijdub]

....and Colt certainly can't afford to continue making a gun until the market is over-saturated and their inventory sits unsold, an inventory they spent a lot of time/money/materials to make......neither do folk who own Colts want a saturated market, which will only drive down prices on used guns.
What's wrong with lower prices on used guns? I'd sure like to see that.

IMO, Colt could continue making the repro (a few thousand more of 'em) and still remain solvent. I don't think they'd have inventory sitting on shelves by, say, doubling their current production numbers (or even more).
The only problem i see, as was previously mentioned, is that certain people (the "3500"?) bought them thinking they'd be a "1 of 4000" run. It's wrong of Colt, therefore, IMO, to continue production of the same gun.
As Mick brought up....Why not stop making the "repro", and start making an m1911 remake of another kind (as we all know there were many variations of the m1911, prior to the A1)? I think what we're seeing is that many folks want a gun based on the original design. Colt could still limit the (now) 5000 gun run, while making another "period true" remake that would satisfy the market craving.
Of course, all pure speculation...and i'm not Colt ;).

[Mick_In_Texas]

What's wrong with lower prices on used guns? I'd sure like to see that.

IMO, Colt could continue making the repro (a few thousand more of 'em) and still remain solvent. I don't think they'd have inventory sitting on shelves by, say, doubling their current production numbers (or even more).
The only problem i see, as was previously mentioned, is that certain people (the "3500"?) bought them thinking they'd be a "1 of 4000" run. It's wrong of Colt, therefore, IMO, to continue production of the same gun.
As Mick brought up....Why not stop making the "repro", and start making an m1911 remake of another kind (as we all know there were many variations of the m1911, prior to the A1)? I think what we're seeing is that many folks want a gun based on the original design. Colt could still limit the (now) 5000 gun run, while making another "period true" remake that would satisfy the market craving.
Of course, all pure speculation...and i'm not Colt ;).

I'm not Colt's either. I do understand that emotions run high on the O1911 WWI Repro. I agree with Hawkmoon and Paul and OD*, that there was never a "Cabona Blue" contract finish in WWI; I have a 1918, and she's Black Army. Colt's by farming it out, tried to "duplicate" that finish. While the Carbona Blue is a lovely finish on my O1911, it is definitely very different from First Lady's Black Army. Yet, my O1991 Govt Series 80, has one of the most beautiful and solid blues I've seen in my life. Very solid, very consistent, very good gun, just like my Govt Super 38 in stainless steel.

I believe that there are many 1911 afficiandos who'd like to have a very close approximation of JMB's and Colt's original M1911. I agree with you, eli, that there are many "options" besides the early contract 1918 that Colt's based their O1911 on... hammers, for sure, changed, from 1911 to 1919. Magwell cutouts also changed: First Lady has the "heart-shaped" magwell cutouts, not fully-machined rectangulars, like my O1911 Repro. There were also two finishes used; Black Army was the first, there was a second one later in production. You got it, eli: I'd just like to see Colt's, IF it was profitable, come up with that close approximation of an M1911 for regular production. Mine are pretty basic, and that is the way I like them: the 1911 was designed as a defensive/survival pistol, and it is THE best "point and shoot" pistol I've ever handled. That doesn't work for everybody. It works for me. So maybe I'm tunnel-visioning here... to qualify for a Texas CHL, we've got to be able to hit a bull's eye out to 25 yds, consistently, and a solid basic quality 1911 will do that. That's defensive, not target-shooting or competition.

I have nothing against folks who like "higher level", "bells and whistles" 1911s! Heck, I have a Mil-Spec Springer, which like my Colt's Govt Super 38 and O1991, have three-dot combat sights; they're not "mil-spec" anymore than a Tricon or adjustable. That said, I understand several folks's desire for other "historical repros" from Colt's. But as mntgunr states, companies must make profits on their wares.

The O1911 WWI Repro caused a lot of excitement in our world... and it is VERY CLOSE to First Lady, which is a later 1918 production contract Colt's, the O1911 based on an early 1918 production model. While I generally buy guns to shoot and carry, these two--especially First Lady--won't be shot or carried much, and First Lady RARELY. The O1911s, though, are really beautiful pieces of machinery, from a still-great U.S. firearms manufacturer.

Y'all all take care and be safe.
Mick

[Hawkmoon]

There were also two finishes used; Black Army was the first, there was a second one later in production.
Actually, Mick, it's my understanding that the so-called "black Army" represents either the third or fourth finish variation on the M1911, the first being a high-polish charcoal blue, and the brushed (actually coarse polished) blue replicated by the WW1 replicas being either the second or third variation -- before the "black Army."

[Mick_In_Texas]

Actually, Mick, it's my understanding that the so-called "black Army" represents either the third or fourth finish variation on the M1911, the first being a high-polish charcoal blue, and the brushed (actually coarse polished) blue replicated by the WW1 replicas being either the second or third variation -- before the "black Army."

I know there were different finishes on the original M1911s as production went along. I'd have to check my abbreviated Clawson's, I reckon... or my JMB biography.

Do know that "Carbona Blue" is an attempt by Colt's to "replicate" one of the WWI contract finishes. Being blessed to own a O1911, it's a beautiful finish... I've just heard that unlike the original mil-spec finishes from the mid- to late-1900s, it's not that durable for carry and frequent use. That's okay. My First Lady is NEVER carried, and rarely shot; my O1911 is right under her, as far as being RARELY carried and infrequently shot. I have carried it. And yes, I have shot it a couple of times.

Personally, I like the original M1911 design and pistol. I wish I could afford a second O1911 to have re-finished to carry regularly. I'd prob have it hard-chromed or TBlacked, and keep my first one OEM as it came off the line. I doubt I'll be able to have a second. One of the reasons I personally would like to see Colt's introduce an M1911 to their "regular" production, that's a little different from the O1911 "collector's model". I've got several other 1911A1s that I carry, including Colt's; but, dang, I'd sure like to have a re-issue/reproduction of an M1911 I felt I could USE a LOT. Including carry.

Thanks for this Hawkmoon. Love you folks here!
Mick

[mtngunr]

Prior to Mauser hot-salts in the mid-30's, pretty much all blueing was some form of heat blue, and generally thin and delicate....the WWI repro finish duplicates that part as well as appearance.....modern steels don't heat-blue well at all, so old-style finishes on new guns are all replicant.....my O1911 gets carried and shot and looked at all the time....the latter even more so since it was parkerized....the original 1911 brushed finish was more unidirectional than on the repro, I think...sorry for the disjointed post, but this thread's covered a lot of ground......

[Mick_In_Texas]

Prior to Mauser hot-salts in the mid-30's, pretty much all blueing was some form of heat blue, and generally thin and delicate....the WWI repro finish duplicates that part as well as appearance.....modern steels don't heat-blue well at all, so old-style finishes on new guns are all replicant.....my O1911 gets carried and shot and looked at all the time....the latter even more so since it was parkerized....the original 1911 brushed finish was more unidirectional than on the repro, I think...sorry for the disjointed post, but this thread's covered a lot of ground......

Makes perfect sense, and thank you for this! So, you've had your O1911 refinished, in Parkerizing? Who did your refinish?

Yes, they're a fascinating pistol for 1911 lovers... very authentically-done. I love mine.

Mick

[OD*]

Makes perfect sense, and thank you for this! So, you've had your O1911 refinished, in Parkerizing? Who did your refinish?

Yes, they're a fascinating pistol for 1911 lovers... very authentically-done. I love mine.

Mick
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=38385

[Mick_In_Texas]

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=38385

I went to the thread, OD*, and see why and how mtngunr had his O1911 refinished. It's a good, defensive carry pistol, and he wanted to shoot it and carry it. He's a lot like me: I respect a real historic gun, like my First Lady; but the O1911 Repro IS a modern gun.

Mr. Adair to his financial loss talked me out of refinishing my USGI from 1918. As did some of you folks here. But, on my O1911 Repro... it's SUCH a good pistol... it is reliable, functional, whatever, accurate out to 25 yds minimum... I may just start enjoying it more, and carrying it, and if it develops wear, later on have it refinished. It's not a collector's piece like my First Lady, who's all original from 1918; it's rare, as far as production goes.

I carried it in June when I went to a conference. I have a Rock Parked 1911A1 which is holding up well, modern Park, even being finer grained that the orginal mil-spec, holds up if conditioned. I also carry my RIA a lot, and it has NO wear on it. As much as I love the beautiful Carbona Blue on my O1911, though... maybe eventually a good hard-chroming or TBlack would be appropriate. I think about that for my RIA, too, IF it ever gets to the point of wearing through...

I LOVE my O1911. It's a great, basic, functional, American classic. It's every bit as accurate and functional as my Colt's Govt in Super 38 in ss, which is amazingly dead-on out of the box! It's my "road gun".

I see what mtngunr is getting at. He's like me: he shoots his moderns. My guns are working guns, except for First Lady, which is a historical gun, functional though she is. She will remain as she rolled off the assembly line in late 1918.

My others, including my beloved O1911, are modern guns. They are subject to uuse, carry, handling. Even my Chinese SKS rifle, in 7.62X39 MM NATO: it's built like a tank, but I'm tempted to replace the beautiful wood stock, and original magazine, with aftermarkets. Not for a while, though. Same with my O1911 WWI Repro. BUT: I may start re-thinking my primary carry pistols. Truth be known, the reason I lusted after the WWI Repro, was to be able to have a MODERN version of the M1911 to USE and CARRY. Maybe I should stick to that dream, since I actually have one...

Thank all you folks for the help, the information, the history. This is why I LOVE John's Forum. I just cherish you folks here. I mean that. Thank you.

Mick

[mtngunr]

Indeed, Mick, I wanted an old-fashioned looking minimalist 1911 to shoot as much as I wanted....could have bought an original, but would have been self-limited to softball/lead loads in deference to the relatively primitive metallurgy/heat-treat of the early 1900's.......

[elijdub]

You got it, eli: I'd just like to see Colt's, IF it was profitable, come up with that close approximation of an M1911 for regular production.
Thanks Mick ;)...That's exactly what i was trying to say.
A few (four or five) months ago i needed some quick cash and had to part with my beloved O1911, much to my dismay. While i'd like to replace it i have some more immediate needs as far as guns go (and otherwise...it's hunting season ya' know ;)), and am concerned that if "they" stop at 5000 the price will go through the roof (well, maybe not that high). I'd like to get another one, though i'd gladly settle for the "imaginary" gun of which we speak. Point being, if i can't buy a repro soon, and they stop making 'em, the price is sure to go up; too bad Colt doesn't make a production model 1911 repro of another sort. Ah well.... Maybe they'll read these posts and realize there might be a market for it ;).
Mine are pretty basic, and that is the way I like them: the 1911 was designed as a defensive/survival pistol, and it is THE best "point and shoot" pistol I've ever handled. That doesn't work for everybody. It works for me. So maybe I'm tunnel-visioning here... to qualify for a Texas CHL, we've got to be able to hit a bull's eye out to 25 yds, consistently, and a solid basic quality 1911 will do that. That's defensive, not target-shooting or competition.
I don't think you're "tunnel-visioning" at all Mick! I've owned several production variations of the 1911 (past and present), "high-end" bells-and- whistly-types included, and found my "plain jane" stock 5-inch GI models to be the most accurate (...of course, maybe i'm tunnel-visioning too :o...:D!). I sure would like to shoot some "custom" guns though to put my "theory" to the test ;) (...i think i just found an excuse to buy a NHC :D). While i love my Kimber CDP (4 inch), it's nightsights are only good for some applications, IMO...which, i suppose, is what they're there for. Great for "nightstand" or general defensive use, but i can't target shoot AT ALL with those giant white dots staring me in the eyes. I find i'm much more accuarate with low-pro GI sights.


Now with regards to the TX CHL....WOW!! ..."bull at 25 yards"...!!! In New Mexico, i'm embarrased to say (though this test wasn't my idea), we had to put something like 75% of the bullets ON THE PAPER! at 3 and 5 yards! ..And it wasn't 75% at each place, it was that percentage overall (which means in theory you could put most of your bullets on paper at 3, instead of 5, yards)! I mean really...can it get any easier???!!!!

[Hawkmoon]

too bad Colt doesn't make a production model 1911 repro of another sort. Ah well.... Maybe they'll read these posts and realize there might be a market for it
Well, don't forget the Series 70 pistols. Physically and mechanically they are essentially the same as an M1911A1, except for the rollmarks, the grip panels, and the fact they are blued rather than Parkerized. They cost a bit less than a WW1, there is no production run limitation, and they are reported to be excellent pistols.

[clughog]

Hawkmoon, you are absolutely right! They're fine pistols, and very affordable.

[elijdub]

Well, don't forget the Series 70 pistols. Physically and mechanically they are essentially the same as an M1911A1, except for the rollmarks, the grip panels, and the fact they are blued rather than Parkerized. They cost a bit less than a WW1, there is no production run limitation, and they are reported to be excellent pistols.
Good point! I always forget about the series 70 replica's....:o

When you say "physically and mechanically the same as the A1", besides missing the arched MSH (and the cosmetics you mentioned), are there literally any other differences? ...types of metal? ...hammer? ...trigger? ...etc.?

As a side-note, as much as i like the A1's i do still wish they made a production version of the "original".

[clughog]

Eli, they do have the arched MSH, although the one on mine is plastic. And the sights are a little more modern. I ALMOST gave mine up a while back, then came to my senses!

[Mick_In_Texas]

Indeed, Mick, I wanted an old-fashioned looking minimalist 1911 to shoot as much as I wanted....could have bought an original, but would have been self-limited to softball/lead loads in deference to the relatively primitive metallurgy/heat-treat of the early 1900's.......

Actually, in another thread, I've referred to your thinking: truth be told, this is the very reason I craved an O1911. I have a fully-functional, very great shape, M1911 Colt's from late 1918, and that one will NEVER be shot much and NEVER carried at all. But, I LOVE it. The one time I've shot it, YES, factory loading, roundnose lead, like it was designed to shoot. 100%. Kicked the slide back, and wanted some more; just didn't give her more (this after two gunsmiths and my own thorough inspection of her). She's my ONE "safe queen".

But, as much as I love my O1911, I'm going to start enjoying it more. Even minor holster wear doesn't hurt a gun, if it's well-maintained. Eventually, maybe a refinish from a quality refinisher; but I think she'll go a ways before that's required.

They ARE beauties. While my experience with Colt's has been excellent, they SURE did a good job on these. Whether folks wish to get one and never shoot it, or get one to "use" an "M1911" in modern life, and anything in between, it's one FINE pistol.

Mick

[Mick_In_Texas]

Thanks Mick ;)...That's exactly what i was trying to say.
A few (four or five) months ago i needed some quick cash and had to part with my beloved O1911, much to my dismay. While i'd like to replace it i have some more immediate needs as far as guns go (and otherwise...it's hunting season ya' know ;)), and am concerned that if "they" stop at 5000 the price will go through the roof (well, maybe not that high). I'd like to get another one, though i'd gladly settle for the "imaginary" gun of which we speak. Point being, if i can't buy a repro soon, and they stop making 'em, the price is sure to go up; too bad Colt doesn't make a production model 1911 repro of another sort. Ah well.... Maybe they'll read these posts and realize there might be a market for it ;).

I don't think you're "tunnel-visioning" at all Mick! I've owned several production variations of the 1911 (past and present), "high-end" bells-and- whistly-types included, and found my "plain jane" stock 5-inch GI models to be the most accurate (...of course, maybe i'm tunnel-visioning too :o...:D!). I sure would like to shoot some "custom" guns though to put my "theory" to the test ;) (...i think i just found an excuse to buy a NHC :D). While i love my Kimber CDP (4 inch), it's nightsights are only good for some applications, IMO...which, i suppose, is what they're there for. Great for "nightstand" or general defensive use, but i can't target shoot AT ALL with those giant white dots staring me in the eyes. I find i'm much more accuarate with low-pro GI sights.


Now with regards to the TX CHL....WOW!! ..."bull at 25 yards"...!!! In New Mexico, i'm embarrased to say (though this test wasn't my idea), we had to put something like 75% of the bullets ON THE PAPER! at 3 and 5 yards! ..And it wasn't 75% at each place, it was that percentage overall (which means in theory you could put most of your bullets on paper at 3, instead of 5, yards)! I mean really...can it get any easier???!!!!

Except for the part about you having to sell your O1911. That's sad.

But see, that's why I wish Colt's would come up with a "Series M1911 Repro"--like the "Series 70 Repro" (which I've kinda got my "sights" on as well)--for the afficiandos who "missed" getting an O1911.

Far as tunnel vision... well, I like mine pretty close to how JMB designed 'em. That doesn't work for everyone who loves the platform. For me, they WORK.

Texas is allegedly the hardest state to get, and maintain, a CHL/CCW license in. We have to qualify out to 25 yds, timed shooting strings, various numbers of rounds. Minimum score, I believe, is 175 points out of a maximum of 250. Both times, mine was 240. You get three chances, with a 30-day waiting period; you botch the third run, you used to have to wait four years to re-try, although the Legislature changed the "period" effective 2007 to five years. 7 yds is the minimum; 15, the mid, 25 the max. Most all of us with valid CHLs can function accurately at least to 25 yds, if not a little further.

Funny story: renewal, one of my instructors (they're a husband and wife team, who own Champion Firearms in College Station), the wife, before we went to the indoor range to try to qualify, said, "If you shoot the instructor, you fail." She explained that a recent shooting qualification person, had a misfire on a semi-automatic (Texas has two CHLs: SA, which is semi and revolver, you have to pass the test with a pistol; NSA, no semi, if you pass the test using a revolver) pistol. Instead of lying the weapon, muzzle down-range, down, he whipped around and pointed at her. We all know that on a misfire round, it could go off any second, up to two minutes. Instant failure, 30-day wait. "If you shoot the instructor, you fail." INDEED, sir!!!

Funny in a sense, but, NOT REALLY. There you go.

eli, you and yours and all y'all take care.
Mick

[elijdub]

Eli, they do have the arched MSH, although the one on mine is plastic. And the sights are a little more modern.
I'll be!!! Of all the time i've spent studying the "Colt catalogue" i've never noticed that before! They just got even more appealing to me! Of course a MSH isn't a difficult thing to add....it's just that i now appreciate it's "period correctness" a little more. ...Just got added to my "list" ;).
BTW, what type of sights do they have? Not the low-pro's i take it?

I ALMOST gave mine up a while back, then came to my senses!

I'm glad you came to your senses Creighton ;)!

[elijdub]

Except for the part about you having to sell your O1911. That's sad.
Thanks Mick! You and i are "on the same page" here i think.
I was sad to see it go, but it went to a good home, a fellow forum member, and i'll get another eventually. He generously offered to re-sell it to me AT COST once my "problems" dissipated; unfortunately i was on a "Commander kick" at the time ;). Oh well....

But see, that's why I wish Colt's would come up with a "Series M1911 Repro"--like the "Series 70 Repro" (which I've kinda got my "sights" on as well)--for the afficiandos who "missed" getting an O1911.

Far as tunnel vision... well, I like mine pretty close to how JMB designed 'em. That doesn't work for everyone who loves the platform. For me, they WORK.
1) I'm starting to take notice of the series 70 repro too. I'm hoping Creighton (or someone) posts some pics of this beauty so i/we can have a look at it (specifically the sights...i really want to see a close-up!)!!

2) The deeper i get into 1911's, the more i appreciate JMB design. It is my personal opinion that the "improvements" that can be made to it are few, indeed, if any. Sure we can "hybridize" feed lips, bevel heavier FPS's, etc. (all very good ideas!!!), but i think a lot of companies take it way too far....IMVHO!! This is based on my very limited understanding of "timing" and "tolerances", but from what i've read, and heard said specifically by Tuner, JMB had it right (of course).

Texas is allegedly the hardest state to get, and maintain, a CHL/CCW license in. We have to qualify out to 25 yds, timed shooting strings, various numbers of rounds. Minimum score, I believe, is 175 points out of a maximum of 250. Both times, mine was 240. You get three chances, with a 30-day waiting period; you botch the third run, you used to have to wait four years to re-try, although the Legislature changed the "period" effective 2007 to five years. 7 yds is the minimum; 15, the mid, 25 the max. Most all of us with valid CHLs can function accurately at least to 25 yds, if not a little further.
I'm just dumbfounded! 5 years to re-apply!!!! It would take me several months of serious practice to be able to pass that test. I'm impressed.....though i must say, i'm not so sure that it should be a requirement of carrying a firearm that you must be able to hit a target at 25 yards...but this is not an issue that should be discussed here.

Funny story: renewal, one of my instructors (they're a husband and wife team, who own Champion Firearms in College Station), the wife, before we went to the indoor range to try to qualify, said, "If you shoot the instructor, you fail." She explained that a recent shooting qualification person, had a misfire on a semi-automatic (Texas has two CHLs: SA, which is semi and revolver, you have to pass the test with a pistol; NSA, no semi, if you pass the test using a revolver) pistol. Instead of lying the weapon, muzzle down-range, down, he whipped around and pointed at her. We all know that on a misfire round, it could go off any second, up to two minutes. Instant failure, 30-day wait. "If you shoot the instructor, you fail." INDEED, sir!!!

Funny in a sense, but, NOT REALLY. There you go.
That's a good one Mick!
eli, you and yours and all y'all take care.
Mick
You to my friend.

[clughog]

Eli, I don't have a decent picture of my Series 70 Reproduction, but my friend Rio Vista Slim has a great picture of his in both Stainless and Blue. Here's a link to one of his posts: http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?p=354787&postcount=12 (hope you don't mind my showing off your pistols, Steve!). It shows the sights pretty good. Mine is a blued version and has the plastic MSH...Steve was lucky and got steel MSH on both of his!

[elijdub]

Thanks Creighton! (and i think RVS won't mind a bit ;))
The sights maintain a fairly low-profile, which i like. This gun is really becoming appealling! It's always been in the back of my mind, but with recent conversations about the need for a "near-original spec'd" 1911, this has come to the forefront.

[clughog]

And you'll note that my Avatar is the Colt Series 70 Reproduction, too. It's sure a versatile pistol--great base for doing just about anything you want to it (but I've kept mine bone stock).

[jeff1124]

2) The deeper i get into 1911's, the more i appreciate JMB design. It is my personal opinion that the "improvements" that can be made to it are few, indeed, if any. Sure we can "hybridize" feed lips, bevel heavier FPS's, etc. (all very good ideas!!!), but i think a lot of companies take it way too far....IMVHO!! This is based on my very limited understanding of "timing" and "tolerances", but from what i've read, and heard said specifically by Tuner, JMB had it right (of course).





Actually Eli, the FPS's bevel was originally designed to be very small by JMB, other tweakers got involved somewhere along the line and changed to the "large" angle. If you're lucky enough to examine a real WWI GI that has not been "rebuilt", you'll see that the small bevel was original. Tuner does state this in his FPS sticky, IIRC

[elijdub]

Thank you Jeff. Interesting...i didn't know this, nor have i ever had the chance to really examine a WWI. Those i've seen as gun shows, etc., are usually behind glass or are in the situation where the can't be handled too much. ...Something i'd really like to do though!
I wonder...do the WWI Repro's have the "correct" bevel? VERY curious..!

[OD*]

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/FPS2.jpg
(Charles W. Clawson photo)

[mtngunr]

Thank you Jeff. Interesting...i didn't know this, nor have i ever had the chance to really examine a WWI. Those i've seen as gun shows, etc., are usually behind glass or are in the situation where the can't be handled too much. ...Something i'd really like to do though!
I wonder...do the WWI Repro's have the "correct" bevel? VERY curious..!

No sir, they don't....and despite Colt going to the trouble of putting correct inspector marks on frame, slide, and barrel, they stuck a FPS in the gun with the modern size stamp on it which almost overpowers the inspector's mark just above it on the slide rear face.....on my faux refurb, I had the FPS swapped out, but had to settle for a flat-bottom unit as the run of correct radius FPS was exhausted and I didn't want to wait....

[texagun]

This has been a great thread.
Here are a pair of Ponys.
On Top: 70 Series Repro
On Bottom: WWI Repro




http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/w5lx/APairofPonysreduced.jpg

[TattooPaul]

Beautiful pair of ponies there Tex. I have and love the WWI and very much want the 70 Series next. As soon as some situations improve I plan on the 70 Series. That slide by itself speaks volumes about how nice this brand and this particular model look in person. The pictures never seem to do the real Colt's justice. I can imagine what this pair looked like "live". Thanks for posting the pic… _Paul

[OD*]

No sir, they don't....and despite Colt going to the trouble of putting correct inspector marks on frame, slide, and barrel, they stuck a FPS in the gun with the modern size stamp on it which almost overpowers the inspector's mark just above it on the slide rear face.....on my faux refurb, I had the FPS swapped out, but had to settle for a flat-bottom unit as the run of correct radius FPS was exhausted and I didn't want to wait....
Actually, the WWI repros do have the correct FPS (with the exception of the #1 size stamping). The WWI reproductions are patterned after the type 3 transitional variation, with the Rampant Colt behind the serrations but with the new shape recoil spring housing used between serials 275,000 and 290,000. The new FPS were intro' around serial 240,000 in January of 1918.

1917 125,587-127,998 Springfield 2,412
137401-151186 Colt 13,786
151187-151986 Colt USMC 800
151987-185800 Colt 33,814
185801-186200 Colt USMC 400
186201-209586 Colt 23,386
209587-210386 Colt USMC 800
210387-215386 Colt Reserved for receivers 5000
215387-216186 Colt USMC 800
216187-216586 Colt 400
216587-216986 Colt USMC 400

1918 216987-217386 Colt USMC 400
217387-223952 Colt 6566
223953-223990 Colt USN 38
223991-232000 Colt 8010
232001-233600 Colt USN 1600
233601-580600 Colt 347,000
1-13381 Remington Arms - UMC 13,381

1919 13381-21676 Remington Arms - UMC 8,295
580601-629500 Colt 48900
629501-717386 Colt Suspended

[elijdub]

Actually, the WWI repros do have the correct FPS (with the exception of the #1 size stamping).
Hey OD,
So because they're a "copy" of the serials after 240000 that makes them "correct"? And as such, they have the additional radius? (just wanting to clarify...thanks).
Can you elaborate on what you mean by the "#1 stamping"? What is "stamping"?
Thanks.

[OD*]

Hey OD,
So because they're a "copy" of the serials after 240000 that makes them "correct"?.
And as such, they have the additional radius? (just wanting to clarify...thanks)..
Well, it's not just the serial numbers, but the style of slide Colt chose to replicate, the type 3 slide was not used until 1918, the original FPS radius was changed in January of 1918.


Can you elaborate on what you mean by the "#1 stamping"? What is "stamping"?.
Some Colts FPS have a 1, or 2 etc., stamped on them, it is their size, 1 being standard, 2 being a little larger and so on.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/YostR.jpg

[elijdub]

Well, it's not just the serial numbers, but the style of slide Colt chose to replicate, the type 3 slide was not used until 1918, the original FPS radius was change in January of 1918.
Got it, thanks ;). But, when you say "style of slide", what differentiates one slide (type) from the next?....rollmarks? Just trying to absorb as much info as possible! I didn't realize Colt used different slides (unless we're refering to rollmarks) throughout the WWI models. I mean, i know there were Gov't and Commercial models, etc., but there weren't any actual "spec"/tolerance changes were there??
Thanks!

Some Colts FPS have a 1, or 2 etc., stamped on them, it is their size, 1 being standard, 2 being a little larger and so on.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/YostR.jpg
Thanks OD...a pic is worth 1000 words ;)!
So, is this only on WWI era models? AFAIK my two early series 80's don't have "numbers"/stamps on the FPS's (though now i'm going to go look to make sure :o).

[OD*]

Got it, thanks ;). but there weren't any actual "spec"/tolerance changes were there??Yes there were, look at the recoil spring housing (lower front part of the slide) on these pistols, the top one is a 1913 mfg. and the bottom one's a 1918, you will see they are cut different.

http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/1913l.jpg

http://coolgunsite.com/images/1911/1918N3/wpe10.jpg


So, is this only on WWI era models? AFAIK my two early series 80's don't have "numbers"/stamps on the FPS's (though now i'm going to go look to make sure :o).

No Sir, the older pistols did not have the stamping on the FPS, only the modern guns do. I believe (?) this type marking started with the Series 80 pistols, I have not seen an original pre-'70 nor a Series '70 with this stamping. The very early stainless pistols have an S stamped where the 1 is found now.

[cliff731]

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w266/pentaxuser01/Colt70_SAMSSS.jpg

The Springer just sort of sneaked in on the photo session... ;)

I've noticed that Colt is calling this one a "Custom Replica" on their website...

And as always... http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/Images/colt_logo_s.jpg

[elijdub]

Yes there were, look at the recoil spring housing (lower front part of the slide) on these pistols, the top one is a 1913 mfg. and the bottom one's a 1918, you will see they are cut different.

http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/1913l.jpg

http://coolgunsite.com/images/1911/1918N3/wpe10.jpg
I see...the "cuts" (ball?) are longer on the '18.
I had no idea! I've always thought that the "original" design had ZERO modifications until the "WWII pistol changes".
Thanks.



No Sir, the older pistols did not have the stamping on the FPS, only the modern guns do. I believe this type marking started with the Series 80 pistols, I have not seen an original pre-'70 nor a Series '70 with this stamping. The very early stainless pistols have an S stamped where the 1 is found now.
Thanks for clearing this up OD. I still haven't gone and looked at my series-80's.... I'll get around to it ;).

[elijdub]

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w266/pentaxuser01/Colt70_SAMSSS.jpg

The Springer just sort of sneaked in on the photo session... ;)

I've noticed that Colt is calling this one a "Custom Replica" on their website...

And as always... http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/Images/colt_logo_s.jpg
Beautiful 1911's Cliff!!!
With regards to the Series 70 replica, i noticed the same thing. I'd speculate that this model is being made in the Custom shop as the WWI is....(?)

[texagun]

There is so much good information in this thread, I'd sure like to see it as a sticky. Thanks to OD* for all the factual information he has offered.

[OD*]

I see...the "cuts" (ball?) are longer on the '18.
That's something else I get a kick out of, one "custom" smith likes to have folks believe the "ball" cut is his invention, it isn't. The original Springfield Armory used it on their M1911s (illustration #3).
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/RecoilSpringHousing.jpg
(Charles W. Clawson photo)

I had no idea! I've always thought that the "original" design had ZERO modifications until the "WWII pistol changes".
Thanks.
I should have used this picture last night, explains it better than I did. There were a couple changes. (slides, hammers, sights, thumb safeties, magazine catches, recoil spring plugs, recoil spring guides, etc.)
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/Slides.jpg
(Charles W. Clawson photo)

Thanks for clearing this up OD. I still haven't gone and looked at my series-80's.... I'll get around to it ;).
You're welcome Sir. 5 of my Series 80s (and the repros & Gunsite) have the 1 stamping, the 1984 mfg. stainless has the S.

[OD*]

There is so much good information in this thread, I'd sure like to see it as a sticky. Thanks to OD* for all the factual information he has offered.
You're welcome Sir. Thank you for the kind words.

[Hawkmoon]

Beautiful 1911's Cliff!!!
With regards to the Series 70 replica, i noticed the same thing. I'd speculate that this model is being made in the Custom shop as the WWI is....(?)
That would be correct. The Series 70 replicas are from the Custom Shop.

[elijdub]

That's something else I get a kick out of, one "custom" smith likes to have folks believe the "ball" cut is his invention, it isn't. The original Springfield Armory used it on their M1911s (illustration #3).
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/RecoilSpringHousing.jpg
(Charles W. Clawson photo)


I should have used this picture last night, explains it better than I did. There were a couple changes. (slides, hammers, sights, thumb safeties, magazine catches, recoil spring plugs, recoil spring guides, etc.)
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/Slides.jpg
(Charles W. Clawson photo)


You're welcome Sir. 5 of my Series 80s (and the repros & Gunsite) have the 1 stamping, the 1984 mfg. stainless has the S.
Thanks again OD. That's great info. I REALLY need to get Clawson's book ;)! Those photos do a great job of telling the story. ...And i know what you mean about "he" who thinks he invented the "ball cuts". Thanks for pointing out SA's use of 'em ;).
I finally checked...my early-series 80 Commander and OACP both have a 1 stamped on the FPS.
Now i just need to finally get around to calling Colt to figure out when these guns were made :o :D!

[elijdub]

That would be correct. The Series 70 replicas are from the Custom Shop.
Thanks for the clarification....that's what i thought.

[jeff1124]

Thanks again OD. That's great info. I REALLY need to get Clawson's book ;)! Those photos do a great job of telling the story. ...And i know what you mean about "he" who thinks he invented the "ball cuts". Thanks for pointing out SA's use of 'em ;).
I finally checked...my early-series 80 Commander and OACP both have a 1 stamped on the FPS.
Now i just need to finally get around to calling Colt to figure out when these guns were made :o :D!

Your OACP was made in 1985..... :)

[elijdub]

Your OACP was made in 1985..... :)
Well i shoulda' just asked you to begin with ;)...!
...Now on to the Commander :)

[Mick_In_Texas]

Well, y'all got me to "drag" First Lady, my original USGI M1911 from 1918 out, to look at her slide and FPS. I've also got my WWI Repro out with her.

First Lady is S/N 497XXX, which according to sources is mid- to late-1918 production from Colt's (she has the "heart-shaped" [not fully machined to rectangular] magwell cutouts), whereas as I understand it, the WWI Repro was based on an earlier 1918 production M1911.

The slide cuts on First Lady are like OD*'s Clawson 3 or 4, best I can tell from the post thread. There seems to be a slight difference in the WWI Repro's. Not much, but seems a little difference.

First Lady has NO stampings on her firing pin stop plate. Hers is different than my WWI Repro model. It's hard to explain... First Lady's is the same thickness all the way down to the bevel part, whereas the Repro has "cutouts" let's say on the sides, above the bevel at the bottom. ABOVE the FPS on the back of the slide in the hammer well, First Lady has a tiny little stamp, it looks like an "H" but I don't think it is. The Repro has an "H"; if the orig is an "H", it's smaller than the Repro's.

This mostly for eli, since he doesn't have an M1911 from 1918 to compare a Repro to, and several of us do, my First Lady being a 1918 (doubly-blessed here!).

I hope this is of some value to you folks. Some beauties being shown here, and a WEALTH of information! Outside of the out-source Carbona Blue on the Repro's, my O1991 has one of the most beautiful factory bluing jobs on it I've EVER seen! With all due respect to my current Ruger and Taurus and former Berettas, that O1991 just has BEAUTIFUL bluing on it... Similar to these Series 70 Repros here. Colt's really does a good job there, for sure.

Y'all take care.
Mick

That's something else I get a kick out of, one "custom" smith likes to have folks believe the "ball" cut is his invention, it isn't. The original Springfield Armory used it on their M1911s (illustration #3).
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/RecoilSpringHousing.jpg
(Charles W. Clawson photo)


I should have used this picture last night, explains it better than I did. There were a couple changes. (slides, hammers, sights, thumb safeties, magazine catches, recoil spring plugs, recoil spring guides, etc.)
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/Slides.jpg
(Charles W. Clawson photo)


You're welcome Sir. 5 of my Series 80s (and the repros & Gunsite) have the 1 stamping, the 1984 mfg. stainless has the S.

[elijdub]

This mostly for eli, since he doesn't have an M1911 from 1918 to compare a Repro to, and several of us do, my First Lady being a 1918 (doubly-blessed here!).
Y'all take care.
Mick
Thanks for the additional info Mick! Some day soon i'll have an "original" or five ;). Gotta' get my ducks in a row. Still hunting season for me. In NM we have to do a lot of traveling to hunt, depending on what "Unit" we draw in the lottery.... So my money is going towards that just now.
...Back to gun-buying directly, soon as i fill my Elk tag for the year ;)!

[Mick_In_Texas]

Thanks for the additional info Mick! Some day soon i'll have an "original" or five ;). Gotta' get my ducks in a row. Still hunting season for me. In NM we have to do a lot of traveling to hunt, depending on what "Unit" we draw in the lottery.... So my money is going towards that just now.
...Back to gun-buying directly, soon as i fill my Elk tag for the year ;)!

We're in the middle of deer season (whitetails mostly in Texas, and totally in the Brazos Valley); several folks including one of mine, requesting paid time off yesterday for today because it was supposed to and did get in the high 30s last night, for deer hunting early this morning... ELK! Not native to Texas, but some over on a preserve in Sommerville near here... reckon they're native to NM! We don't have to go far at all in the Brazos River Valley to find good deer and turkey and quail areas; in west Texas, minimum 100-150 miles, except for quail...

There are still some reasonably-priced M1911s and M1911A1s out there, eli. I was just really blessed a couple or three years ago on First Lady: she came from New York State at auction. She's in excellent shape for an almost 100-year-old, USED BY THE MILITARY firearm. I wish she could "talk".

Also very blessed, and thanks to the folks here, that I got the WWI Repro last year! These people are the best... as if you didn't already know that! They helped me find one in Clute, Tx. I've got an excellent FFL here in Aggieland... While I wish I could get another WWI Repro, I am just so thankful I got this one. They're one of the most beautifully made, production (sort of) handguns I've ever had, seen or handled, and I've handled, seen and had/have many. I love the platform, and I especially love both my First Lady and my WWI Repro. BOTH excellent, reliable, functional firearms, just as they were made to be...

Mick

[OD*]

whereas the Repro has "cutouts" let's say on the sides, above the bevel at the bottom.
That's because it's a Series 80 FPS, the H on your 1918 in an inspectors stamp. The heart shaped cut was OK'd by the Ordnance Department on 29, April 1918. It began around serial # 375,000, but only 60-70 percent of the receivers had this time saving measure.

[Mick_In_Texas]

That's because it's a Series 80 FPS, the H on your 1918 in an inspectors stamp. The heart shaped cut was OK'd by the Ordnance Department on 29, April 1918. It began around serial # 375,000, but only 60-70 percent of the receivers had this time saving measure.

I knew it was a time-saving measure as the demand increased during the escalation of WWI. It really doesn't affect the function of the pistol at all. I think now the stamp on the slide is an "H", just different "font" than my Repro.

Both my M1911 and my Repro are solid, heavy, beautiful guns. They're just beautifully made, both of them. I know my USGI was being manufactured as a "tool" for defense; yet it's still one of the most solid firearms I've ever handled. So is the WWI Repro, and my others. I've been well-pleased with all my Colts, as well as my Springers, Rock Island, Rugers, Taurus, Berettas, and Smith and Wesson. I just love to sit and hold BOTH my Repro and First Lady, OD*... To learn all these details from you "pros"--you, Tuner1911, John, many others, is just fascinating.

But for me, it is particularly beautiful, to be able to lie my First Lady beside my WWI Repro, and see the very close similarities they share. Other than the wear on First Lady, she's almost identical to her "great granddaughter", my O1911 Repro. Colt's did an AWFULLY good job on these.

Y'all take care and be safe.
Mick

[DENDEN]

Well I sacrificed my bank account to keep this thread going. Going to pick up my 1911 repro tomorrow. Bought it at Gunbroker last week. Gunbroker is way more fun than ebay. Next day I had to buy several "fragrances" on ebay for Sig's birthday (significant other). Will post pics asap.

[jeff1124]

DenDen, you will like what you see in the Repro, I still haven't shot mine , but it's a beauty!! I like to cook up my own fragrances but I'm not so sure the little lady appreciates what I put into them! :D

[auto45]

I'm one that believes they should continue making them, but it's a valid argument to limit them if they "publically" sold them as a "limited" production.

I've lost track of what Colt's doing...are they going to keep producing or stop?
;)

And, would a different finish, blueing, etc satisfy both sides? Or do you need to change the roll marks in addition?

Just curious.

[elijdub]

DENDEN, Congrats on your purchase! Hope to see some pics soon ;)! GB is loads of fun! I've been hoping my "sig" would start to appreciate the fragrance of Hoppe's #9 :D!




I've lost track of what Colt's doing...are they going to keep producing or stop?.....
....And, would a different finish, blueing, etc satisfy both sides? Or do you need to change the roll marks in addition?
Producing until serial number 6000, since they started at 1000 (5000 total), is the last report from Colt (maybe a month ago). Maybe we should get another report. I'll call 'em.

The thing is (and i'm no "pro"), the repro was modeled after the 1918, so in order to satisfy everyone I think they would need to choose a different model year (with a different slide). I don't know if the 1918 was done in more than one finish, but as far as i'm concerned that would be "different" enough (personal opinion...and as i said, i have VERY limited collector knowledge).

HTH!

[TattooPaul]

DenDen - Congrats - you will not be disappointed in the least! Quite the opposite.

As far as the continued run I must admit the I see why it's being done but it does seem like a bit of a bait and switch being one who believed there'd be 4000 of 'em when I gave up my money for it. I don't hold anything against Colt for a business decision as if I had great success with something I made I'd keep making them being careful not to flood the market but I am disappointed that it's not as limited as I was led to believe at first.

Does anyone know if the 70 Series started the same way as a limited run?

[Soonenough]

"Does anyone know if the 70 Series started the same way as a limited run?"


When I had corresponded w/ Mark, I asked almost that question. His reply was the 70's are limited production, but not a limited run.

[TattooPaul]

Thanks, guess that means so many per month/year but no set run number. Much appreciated! Hope to add one in the future.

[Soonenough]

"yes these guns are still in production and we run approx. 100 units every other month, not a lot to go around but we build them based on order rate from our distributors."


Took me a minute to find this quote from Mark's email, dated January of this year. Works out to about 600 per year, with no break down of blued v. stainless.

Going back to topic on the original post, it was because the WWI was a limited edition that I had postponed a 70's model. Knowing it would be available indefinetly as current production, I sprung for the WWI first. As things turned out, the WWI is a MUCH better piece. The 70 went back twice for the same problem (slide off center, uneven cuts), each time it came back different but never fixed. Hard to believe both guns were made by the same people.
Had I gotten the 70 first, based on my experiences, I would not have bought the WWI. The WWI raised my expectations, which subsequently were not met with the 70. Go figure.

[TattooPaul]

I have read some posts here about the WWI having off-center and uneven complaints as well.

[Soonenough]

absolutely! I've also read of finish difficulties and mismatched colorations. In that respect, I am fortunate, since my WWI is exemplary. Colt falls down in remaining consistent. I've pretty much sworn off the new ones and try to stick w/ buying the older production pieces. Recently accquired an '89 ss combat commander that lives up to Colt's reputation

[russian]

absolutely! I've also read of finish difficulties and mismatched colorations. In that respect,

The only reason I bought two WWI repros is because I found a second one with a different finish colouring. More black than the carbonia blue of the first one.

[TattooPaul]

The vast majority of these seem to have "hit the mark", so to speak. They are beautiful and very well done.

[Paulinski]

I just got mine. Its simply beautiful.

[azreloader]

Congratulations. Mine is also. But last week I saw one in a gun shop here in Scottsdale that looked like it had been polished with a wire wheel....extreamly rough. I told the dealer he should send it back. He just shrugged his shoulders.

[DENDEN]

When I got to the dealer I ran across another little gem - HS .22lr derringer in original box and probably unfired. Since I also collect High Standards I had to get it. I'll post it in the proper place.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff16/dddenden/P1010007.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff16/dddenden/P1010008.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff16/dddenden/P1010009.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff16/dddenden/P1010022.jpg

[clughog]

DENDEN, that's a beauty! Wow! I absolutely love these pistols! I saw one at the gun show this past weekend and another at a local shop today. Both had serial numbers above 5,300. Interestingly, the finish on one was definitely not as good as on the other. Looks like you got a good one!

[elijdub]

VERY NICE DENDEN!!! Congrats on your new purchase :D! That's an examplary specimen of the WWI Repro!

[daveohno]

Denden, very nice!

[texagun]

Beautiful gun Denden. I picked one up at the last gun show. My serial number is 51XX so it looks like Colt will go to at least serial number 6000 for this series. This one has one of the finest out-of-the-box triggers I have ever seen on a Colt product. The Custom Shop really did a nice job on it.


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/w5lx/WWI1911ReproonBoxsmall-1.jpg

[elijdub]

Very nice Texagun! Before i regretably had to sell mine (i'll get another for sure) i noted the same thing about the trigger. They are very well executed Colt's!

[OD*]

Very nice, Texagun. http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

My M1911 Replica came with a crisp 5.25lbs.

[russian]

Beautiful gun Denden. I picked one up at the last gun show. My serial number is 51XX so it looks like Colt will go to at least serial number 6000 for this series. This one has one of the finest out-of-the-box triggers I have ever seen on a Colt product. The Custom Shop really did a nice job on it.

Nice 1911 Tex. Even though I have one, I still enjoy seeing everyone elses.

As far as trigger pull goes compared to my Colt 1917, its a dream. :p

[bophi]

remember colt started these gun 's with a 1001 sn. no. not at 0001, so 6000 would be 5,000 guns i got mine early and mine is 455x wmk (march 2007 )

[DENDEN]

Thanks guys. I'm pretty satisfied with the finish and overall purchase. I especially like the blue box everything came in and the black running through the stocks. Texagun yours looks great too. I guess this one sat around somewhere as the serial number is 2947. Dennis

[mbinky]

I just picked up my WWI Repro a few weeks ago, and I love it! Haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but hopefully soon.

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/7081/1000047anb6.jpg


http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1883/1000048aic3.jpg

[OD*]

Very nice Binky. http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

[elijdub]

Beautiful Repro mbinky!
If you don't mind my asking, what is the serial number range? ...Curious to know if we're still in the 5000's?

[mbinky]

Well thanks all! (blush...:))

The S/N is 5047WMK, ordered in August, arrived in Sept. up in Kittery Maine.

[mtngunr]

Overpriced!

/Bryan

Let's see....a really GOOD deal is a Springfield WWII made from imported/less-expensive frames/slides, equipped with MIM/cast small parts, and brazed two-piece barrel, but a BAD deal is a US-made gun using domestic production frames/slides, forged/machined critical parts, hand-fitted/finished, with Colt cache' that costs as much as two Springfields.....ok, I get it........wait!, no I don't!.....

[mtngunr]

Well thanks all! (blush...:))

The S/N is 5047WMK, ordered in August, arrived in Sept. up in Kittery Maine.

I love happy endings.....love my 1911 repro, too.....are those the original grips? Mine came equipped with what appeared to be stolen from a Chinese saw handle....

[mbinky]

Those grips came off of a 1947 Government Model I bought last summer. I put a set of C&S 1929 retro grips on it, and saved the removed ones for my repro.

The ones that came on it were ok, but just too light for me. These look more authentic :)

[mtngunr]

Same here on the grips.....I got some repro/retro grips through Bill Adair for my 1911, and they look like duplicates of yours.....there's a thread started a page or two back by OD* titled "I think this turned out well" where you can see the grips.....I'm amazed at the resemblance....

[elijdub]

But see, that's why I wish Colt's would come up with a "Series M1911 Repro"--like the "Series 70 Repro" (which I've kinda got my "sights" on as well)--for the afficiandos who "missed" getting an O1911.

Mick, my friend, i think the Colt God's have listened to us ;)! Hunter has enlightened us (yet again) about Colt's plan to continue a "Repro" series, i believe it's called the 01918, and it's not a limited run!!!!! "Black Army"!!!! Woohoo! On my list for sure!
Thought you'd like to know.
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=40549

[azreloader]

Yee Ha! The next sound you will hear is ole AZ jumping for Joy! I kept the Carbonia Blue one NIB. This one I will shoot the snot out of!

[elijdub]

Yee Ha! The next sound you will hear is ole AZ jumping for Joy! I kept the Carbonia Blue one NIB. This one I will shoot the snot out of!
Smart thinkin' there AZ, keeping it NIB. Now we'll probably see the prices start to climb :scared:. I better re-buy one fast :D.
I'm really looking forward to seeing pics of the newbie!

[dakota1911]

Sounds like I should buy another also.

[texagun]

Hopalong Cassidy had two.
Lash LaRue had two.
Roy Rogers had two.
The Cisco Kid had two.
Gene Autry had two.



http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/w5lx/WWIReproTwoofaKind-2small.jpg

[DENDEN]

I am pretty envious, I only have the one and they made around 5000. I had a recent discussion with myself. Point was that since I have not purchased a gun yet in December I owe myself a Christmas present. I have been looking seriously for the 1911A1 repro but they are harder to find at a reasonable price.

[daveohno]

Hopalong Cassidy had two.
Lash LaRue had two.
Roy Rogers had two.
The Cisco Kid had two.
Gene Autry had two.



http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/w5lx/WWIReproTwoofaKind-2small.jpg

Texagun HAS two!

[azreloader]

Nuthin beats a nice pair! ;)

[TattooPaul]

++1 to that! Unless, of course, it's two pair! Nice set there Tex.