Which way is Better?

[aphco]

For many years I have carried on the strong side but I am starting to wonder if cross draw might actually be more comfortable.

I know that FBI, Secret Service and most LEOs carry under cover on the strong side. But it seems that the motion of brushing back the jacket,reaching for and lifting the weapon and pointing is not natural.

Reaching across the body, pulling the weapon out rather than up, and presenting from a cross draw is more smooth and just a little easier to accomplish. It also seems that cross draw should be faster but as far as I have seen competition shooters use the strong side method. BUT it also seems that strong side does a better job of concealment than Cross draw because of the grip sticking forward. :confused:

I'm guessing that the changes of getting older makes one motion easier than another and I am wondering if others have found the same to be true.

I have ordered a new IWB holster that can be used for either strong side or cross draw so I will be covered no matter which way I decide. Although my OWB holster is comfortable, IWB is a totally different set of variables.

I am not certain if this should be under the Self Defense Forum or here in holsters but I am sure someone will move it if need be :)

[Hawkmoon]

Your question isn't really about holsters, per se, but about modes of carry, so I have taken the liberty of moving the thread to the Self-Defense forum.

The FBI agents I worked with many years ago carried small-of-back, which I thought awfully interesting at the time. I don't currently know any fibbies, so I don't know if strong side, "FBI rake" is the norm, or dictated by policy, or if they can carry however they want. Personally, I think cross-draw makes sense in a vehicle, but I am not convinced that it's faster than a strong side carry under other conditions than seated.

A potential downside to cross-draw is that it's much easier for an assailant to grab and disable your arm as you reach across in front of you. Plus the gun comes out of the holster pointing away from the bad guy (which means toward someone who probably isn't a bad guy. To get the gun aimed at the bad guy it has to be swept across in front of you, whereas from a strong side carry you have a better chance of holding the gun back, out of the bad guy's reach.

[horse 91-A1]

Cross draws work fine for double carries and also in the saddle. :)

Bob

[Barry in IN]

One thing that crossdraw may have an edge for is being accessible to either hand. I like to practice strong-hand and weak-hand draws, mag changes, etc. A lot of holsters that are otherwise good, don't seem so hot when you are trying to get the gun out weak-handed. I think the crossdraw would work well here.

And, of course, they work better than strong side when seated (usually).
I know of at least two people who carry crossdraw in the car/truck, then switch the gun to their usual stroing side holster before they get out.

But those are about the only plusses I see.

As Hawkmoon said, you can't draw the gun and aim at something in front of you without the muzzle sweeping across 180 degrees of area. To be blunt- In the heat of the moment, I don't see the need to point my gun at my wife and kids on it's way to the bad guy.
Everyone and everything within HALF of the area around you gets covered by the muzzle.

Besides covering a lot of area with your muzzle, that's a long distance to cover before the gun is on target. With strong side carry, the gun clears the holster, is rotated up on target, and can be fired at any time if needed (or if you can't move it any further). With crossdraw, you MUST complete the draw to get the gun on target.

Many (most?) trainers won't allow a crossdraw in their classes due to the muzzle sweeping. I don't train a whole lot, but try to go to a class at least once a year, and think everyone should go at least once. Being unable to train with it is reason enough for me to avoid it.

You also won't be allowed to use it on most public or gun club ranges (the ones that even allow drawing from the holster). That may or may not matter to you, depending upon where you shoot. I don't usually use a public or club range, but I do when we travel to see my wife's family a couple of times a year. They allow stong side holster use at the club I joined. Even though I'm not there very often, I would hate to not be able to use my regular holster those times.

[littledoc]

As stated before, crossdraw can be useful. It allows for an easier draw while seated, or if you have range of motion difficulties with your strong arm. It also is a good way to keep a readily available pistol out of the way while doing menial chores and while hunting.

For some it can be slower to draw, but for others, it is sometimes faster than the FBI carry. I don't like not having the muzzle on target when the pistol is first presented and it is easier to defend against when the shooter and shootee are within grappling distance. And to hide it is definitely something that has to be thought about a little more.

IMO, it is a viable mode of carry. It would not always be my first choice, but it has it's place.

[horse 91-A1]

Your question isn't really about holsters, per se, but about modes of carry, so I have taken the liberty of moving the thread to the Self-Defense forum.

The FBI agents I worked with many years ago carried small-of-back, which I thought awfully interesting at the time. I don't currently know any fibbies, so I don't know if strong side, "FBI rake" is the norm, or dictated by policy, or if they can carry however they want. Personally, I think cross-draw makes sense in a vehicle, but I am not convinced that it's faster than a strong side carry under other conditions than seated.

A potential downside to cross-draw is that it's much easier for an assailant to grab and disable your arm as you reach across in front of you. Plus the gun comes out of the holster pointing away from the bad guy (which means toward someone who probably isn't a bad guy. To get the gun aimed at the bad guy it has to be swept across in front of you, whereas from a strong side carry you have a better chance of holding the gun back, out of the bad guy's reach.

This is all true if you are facing the person being interviewed. I interviewed with left shoulder facing the other person and for me it was a power stance since the left arm could be used for blocking or transitioning into handcuffing techniques easier than standing flat footed facing subject.

Rather than adapt the cross-draw technique to body positioning; optimize body positioning to the cross-draw. Given the statistics that 80% of crime is committed by those who have been in prison and a blade to gun assault ratio of 6:1; I'm not going to be facing a potential assailant, nor remain stationary.

If I'm fortunate enough to be double carrying, as stated previously, I'll become mobile right direction if no protection is available. With right forearm across the body; cross-draw is basically a flick of the wrist to engage BGs or multiple BGs and do so accurately.

Hope this helps. :)

Bob

[POPO22]

There have been times during my LEO career when I have used the "crossdraw" carry and felt it more appropriate. When I worked undercover and was expecting to be in crowded areas I would often carry in that manner. My reasoning was that if I was attacked it automatically kept both of my hands closer to my centerline, which is what needs the most protection in self defense against a knife, broken bottle, punch, etc.

It also seems easier to protect against someone brushing against me and accidentally feeling my weapon on my hip or small of the back. For many years I would primarily shoot "Weaver" style, and as a LEO, I always reverted to old training and stepped back with my strong side, which made it very easy to acquire a weaver stance from the crossdraw while blading my body and getting out of harms way while fending with my weak hand. As said by others, if someone catches your hand while its crossing your body (from a frontal assault), you are very weak pulling from that angle unless you step back and away as you draw.

I think it certainly has its place and is worth considering but in the end its just another choice and requires practice to be dependable and practical.
Good Luck

[Ping Ping]

Nor, will you ever see cross draw in competition.

Rule numero uno in competition is safety. One of the main treatises of this is the "180 Rule". There is no way to effect a cross draw, without breaking the 180 degree plane of safety.

Defensive situations are a lot different. The 180 Rule is way down the list of imparatives.

In terms of "faster", statistics don't agree; at least for the masses. It's pretty much accepted dogma that the list of draw speed, low to high, goes something like:

1) Strong side OWB
2) Strong side IWB
3) Cross draw
4) Shoulder holster
5) SOB

Ok. Statistics asside. Everyone is different. Every individual has a preference and certain physical anomolies/abilities, which may dictate that one method is superior to another. Go with what feels most natural for you.

Most importantly: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, P-R-A-C-T-I-C-E that method until it is as familiar as brushing your teeth in the dark.

[chimkayu]

Halito all. I use the cross-draw as my primary, primarily because I use crutches to get around. I do carry the BUG strong-side. But it is difficult to reach along strong-side while using fore-arm crutches. So, there is my advantage to using the cross-draw. Love the 1911 (cross-draw and all) Texas (they really have big cattle?) and this forum.

C......

[garrettwc]

Folks have already covered the pros and cons of cross draw. I'll just add a couple of thoughts.

Cross draw is useful for a backup gun. One of the keys to effective use of a backup gun is that be accessible with either hand, which crossdraw will certainly do.

Something you might want to try since you have an adjustable cant IWB coming is appendix carry, where the holster is your strong side, but in front of your hip. It will end up being about where you watch pocket is on jeans. It's not for everyone, but you might give it a try.

[Ping Ping]

One other point I failed to mention. You spoke of the stocks printing in cross draw carry. They shouldn't, as you don't carry at 9:00. You will likely find reaching all the way accross your body to reach the pistol at 9:00, cumbersome, effortful and slow. Everyone I know who uses this method settles on somewhere between 9:30 and 11:00.

[horse 91-A1]

Nor, will you ever see cross draw in competition.

Rule numero uno in competition is safety. One of the main treatises of this is the "180 Rule". There is no way to effect a cross draw, without breaking the 180 degree plane of safety.

Defensive situations are a lot different. The 180 Rule is way down the list of imparatives.

In terms of "faster", statistics don't agree; at least for the masses. It's pretty much accepted dogma that the list of draw speed, low to high, goes something like:

1) Strong side OWB
2) Strong side IWB
3) Cross draw
4) Shoulder holster
5) SOB

Ok. Statistics asside. Everyone is different. Every individual has a preference and certain physical anomolies/abilities, which may dictate that one method is superior to another. Go with what feels most natural for you.

Most importantly: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, P-R-A-C-T-I-C-E that method until it is as familiar as brushing your teeth in the dark.

I think we're talking about two different subjects, combat shooting and competition shooting is very different. With what I wrote and if I understand what POPO wrote correctly, there is no sweeping motion from the cross-draw holster because body position has transitioned to a power stance.

Self defense/combat shooting initiates from situational awareness/OODA and the earlier the defensive person becomes aware ot the threat, and type of threat, the greater the result is of not being a victim.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/OODA.gif

Statistics are extremely valuable since the defensive person knows the person doing the confrontation (bg) has more experience, and more training from the prison setting, at assaulting than the good guy has at defending.

Very basic self defense is with a right handed BG (especially with blade) then defensive position is left shoulder forward. Right forearm is already across the torso meaning a cross-draw is simply a flick of the wrist to engage when/if the assault begins. In this situation it's the strong side draw that has to be brought across the torso and is much slower to engage.

There are simply too many variables to give examples of and books written about the subject; but, it basically boils down to psychology (OODA) and and proper training.

Hope this helps. :)

Bob

[littledoc]

I hate that OODA flowchart, it gives me a headache. :D

Seriously, when the stuff hits the fan, you revert to your most basic instinct. The "stance" we were all taught goes right out the window as we commence to fightin'. All that really remains is the proper grip, not where your toes are pointing. And Mr. Murphy tells us that you will probably be using only one hand when it goes down.

For many people, facing a threat with your weak side is instinctual and a cross draw can be very effective. Remember, as a CCW or off duty, any reaction is going to be just that, a reaction. As Bob said, it's quick. Try some force on force scenario training using airsoft. You just may find that cross draw is faster than you have been lead to believe. So is the appendix carry.

I do use the FBI carry more these days because I don't CCW like I used to, this state frowns upon it. So most of the time I'm carrying, it's on a range. Crossdraw doesn't lend itself to range carry as well as the FBI. It also keeps the snide remarks from the young 'uns down about how cross draw is dangerous. :confused:

[garrettwc]

Horse, I disagree with you on a couple of points:
there is no sweeping motion from the cross-draw holster because body position has transitioned to a power stance.
That might be true of your own body, especially if your left arm is up in a defensive position. But you are moving the muzzle from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock. There's no way to do that without sweeping any innocents behind and to the left of you. With a strong side draw, you are presenting the muzzle straight towards the target.

Very basic self defense is with a right handed BG (especially with blade) then defensive position is left shoulder forward. Right forearm is already across the torso meaning a cross-draw is simply a flick of the wrist to engage when/if the assault begins. In this situation it's the strong side draw that has to be brought across the torso and is much slower to engage.
Not necessarily. You can try this for yourself if you want. Defending from the left as you stated, shoulder slightly forward, and your elbow high. Your left hand is covering the left side of your head. Draw to the #2 position (firing hand indexed on your pectoral muscle). You can then fire from this retention position, or fend off with the left hand while extending the firing hand out. You don't have to cross your torso with the shooting hand.

When it comes to the OODA and "gettin' your mind right" we are in complete agreement. ;)

[horse 91-A1]

Horse, I disagree with you on a couple of points:

That might be true of your own body, especially if your left arm is up in a defensive position. But you are moving the muzzle from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock. There's no way to do that without sweeping any innocents behind and to the left of you. With a strong side draw, you are presenting the muzzle straight towards the target.


Not necessarily. You can try this for yourself if you want. Defending from the left as you stated, shoulder slightly forward, and your elbow high. Your left hand is covering the left side of your head. Draw to the #2 position (firing hand indexed on your pectoral muscle). You can then fire from this retention position, or fend off with the left hand while extending the firing hand out. You don't have to cross your torso with the shooting hand.

When it comes to the OODA and "gettin' your mind right" we are in complete agreement. ;)

I think we're on the same page but getting different mental pictures, one of the disadvantages of high tech communication. :D

There are simply too many variations to write down and I rely upon the ways I've been trained and past experiences when that training was needed.

Referring to your retention firing scenario, this can be done either side and it uses the potential of the 1911 to the fullest and why I carry the ambi XSE. Evasive, aggressive move strong side draw, fire from retention, 1911 stays in same position as your rear end falls back upon right heel which brings the 1911 into an isosceles position front sight on target, approx 3 rounds fired in this stage, transition to shoulder roll safety on, during roll reacquiring #1 or subsequent subject, safety off - fire - safety on - back on feet crouched position or continue mobile, safety off if needed. By using the safety this way, the 1911 won't get knocked out of battery as some platforms might when hitting the ground/floor; plus you always have the benefit of single action quickness when trigger is engaged. When the situation is fluid, the difference between a single action 1911 and other platform double action can be the difference between getting a heart shot or shoulder shot.

Lots of practice on this one, mats and elbow/knee pads come in handy for this training. A pendulum will be built at the range and by combining the two types of training will be like hand in glove.

Maybe we'll invite Lurper to the ranch and convert him over to a point shooter. :lh:

Bob

[dcunited]

I had heard that for the old Colts it was about the fastest there was. Part of the reason for that is a gun on the waist has to be pulled up to get over the front of the holster, a cross draw does not have that problem. Keep in mind some of these had 7 1/2" barrels that would be very difficult to just pull up and go. The movement of your elbow back and up is rather unnatural. The other option was wearing the gun low enough that you had to push your elbow back as little as possible (similar to the tactical holsters). None of these were concealed handguns ("they wore their guns outside their pants"). I am by no means an expert but just some things I have picked up from history.

(A very few also had swivels where your gun was attached to your belt and you would swivel it forward and fire. Your aim was done by how your body was positioned, not suggested for competition)

[Turtle]

I agree totally with Ping Ping.

The bottom line being go with what ever is the most comfortable for you.


Nor, will you ever see cross draw in competition.

Rule numero uno in competition is safety. One of the main treatises of this is the "180 Rule". There is no way to effect a cross draw, without breaking the 180 degree plane of safety.

Defensive situations are a lot different. The 180 Rule is way down the list of imparatives.

In terms of "faster", statistics don't agree; at least for the masses. It's pretty much accepted dogma that the list of draw speed, low to high, goes something like:

1) Strong side OWB
2) Strong side IWB
3) Cross draw
4) Shoulder holster
5) SOB

Ok. Statistics asside. Everyone is different. Every individual has a preference and certain physical anomolies/abilities, which may dictate that one method is superior to another. Go with what feels most natural for you.

Most importantly: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, P-R-A-C-T-I-C-E that method until it is as familiar as brushing your teeth in the dark.

[garrettwc]

I think we're on the same page but getting different mental pictures, one of the disadvantages of high tech communication.
I think you're right :D

Different variations on the same theme. As one of my instructors is fond of saying "We each work out our own salvation". We learn all we can and take the things that work for us and put in the toolbox.

[horse 91-A1]

I think I've only had a cross-draw carry once in the last two years or so. Two man team both with primary .357mag, I had 1991 cross-draw and 1911 gov't small of back; turned out to be a search and rescue and the stuck elderly gentleman would not have survived another night in the desert. :)

Bob

[twin oaks]

While the speed of draw and presentation angles seem to rule the conversation here, I'd like to throw another wrench into the cogs. All of the scenarios here presume awareness and action- time to draw and fire on your target. In my limited training, the class was presented with draw/no draw scenarios. Sometimes the target/ BG engages you at a range which isn't conducive to drawing first. Being right handed, I DO present my left side towards the attack. If I'm in a confrontation with a range of 1-2 feet I'm not really sure I would want a cross draw because it places the pistol in accesible range of the attacker. Likewise, there have been two occasions when the fastest response was to use my weak side weapon ( EDC knife) on the target. Yeah, that got some strange looks from my classmates, and an instructor shaking his head mumbling " no no no no no no no."
My point is that if you step back on your strong side, you shouldn't have the weapon where the attacker can reach/ draw it if you have to engage in CQB or HTH.