Losing faith in Sig's 1911

[BTF/PTM]

Per my previous post about the failure to feed issues:

First off, Sig was good about getting my pistol back to me in a week, and the paper provided with the package said that the feed ramp had been polished to help the issue. It did seem to help the issue while I was running a box of ammo thru the gun just manually, not firing but loading the magazines and pushing the slide back to feed the rounds thru the gun. Not a single hang-up, operation was smooth.

That's when it happened. After about 60 fired rounds at the range, the extractor broke. How many more issues is this gun going to have? What good is a gun to me if, when I actually have to use it to defend my home, my family, my life, something goes wrong? Unless Sig is prepared to send me another new GSR I really don't think I can trust this gun. This is ridiculous.

[Longslide]

MAN OH MAN! That has to be frustrating.

Not trying to discourge your thinking about getting rid of it - Your almost home- I suggust getting the the extractor replaced - the FTF problem is fixed - extractors can and do break on any pistol. Give it one more try!! :)

[BTF/PTM]

I talked to Sig again this morning, I should have the new shipping label in my email in a few minutes. I'm really going to insist on having Sig call me when the gun arrives in the shop this time, hopefully I can talk one on one with an expert and make sure the gun is thoroughly looked over.

I understand that extractors can and do fail, but no extractor should ever fail after 1200 rounds. That's just ridiculous. This gun is brand new and is not proving itself as a self defense tool.

[izatt82]

i hope sig makes this good it's understandable how you feel. you need something reliable good luck and i hope si gwill fix this issue and give you confidence in there firearm

[Reconvic]

I have a new SIG 1911 with about 450 rounds threw it and it eats all ammo and so far not a problem at all, infact it is on par with my 5 SIG 220's now.

[hutch1510]

biggest reason extractors fail is because running 8 round mags without dimple... i dont care if you have internal or extrenal extractor, i had sig gsr one of the originals... no problems, ran only metalform mags with simple... never a problem... sold it to a friend with 3 of the mags... if your running the stock mags your doing yourself and gun a disservice... that is simple plain old undisputalbe fact.........dont care if it's OEM to your gun or not... need to run real mags if not already.....

[BTF/PTM]

biggest reason extractors fail is because running 8 round mags without dimple... i dont care if you have internal or extrenal extractor, i had sig gsr one of the originals... no problems, ran only metalform mags with simple... never a problem... sold it to a friend with 3 of the mags... if your running the [junk] novack mags your doing yourself and gun a disservice... that is simple plain old undisputalbe fact.........dont care if it's OEM to your gun or not... need to run real mags if not already.....

noted, what mags does the GSR like?

[Hunter]

I disagree with the 7 round dimpled magazine point. I have run thousands of rounds through my Colt GCT using 8 round smooth follower magazines without a problem.
Though I agree that the 7 round dimple magazines are the original design and always work but an in spec Government Model should run with the 8 rounders without a problem.

[hutch1510]

no offense but running a flat follower??? why??? all MIL-SPEC mags are 7 round and run a dimple, sure you can run any mag you want, but to not run a dimple on a control round feed 1911??? good grief... simply put if you dont want your extractor to climb rims on your bullets, hence making it week and prone to breakage, "just like yours is doing" you need to run proper mags... they are 7 round and the will have a dimpled follower, those who disagree, well they disagree with john moses browning not me... i learned why that dimple is sooooooo important, their wre many threads which will offer you the same information... by the way metalform is what i ran, welded bottom, 7 round, flat with dimple, and wolf extra power spring... the dimple saves extractors, it's as simple as that....reason for 7 rounders is to keep the spring tight to offer lots of pressure, so recoil wont move when get to last bulltes... the dimple offers more resistance when the slide is moving forward, and extractor needs to grab the rim, with last reounds this is essential, having a flat follower offers no resistance, and many extractors will simply "push feed" climb the rim.... you will not notice the problem until 1) it just breaks, or 2) your gun starts ejecting funny etc.etc. and then breaks... my point is why would'nt you run a dimple??? especially after knowing this???

[Hunter]

The Checkmate 8 round magazine come from the factory with a smooth follower. I understand that the Government Model is a controlled feed design but a correctly sprung Government Model should be able to utilize the controlled feed with a flat follower.
There is a lot of folks who use the 8 round flat followers that work.
I am not disagreeing with Mr. Browning at all, just simply saying that 8 round magazine will work. They do for me.

[hutch1510]

well if that was the case the dimple would have never existed to begin with, infact it was implemented later in the design because the flat follower was not working, so the dimple was implemented to cure the shortfall design... sure your mags can work fine, but in my opinion it is still infurior and not following the original design specs... but if you have a super tough spring theres probably enough tension so that your flat follower will work, but once spring fatigue sets in, "thats where the dimple comes in" then you extractor will start climbing the rim.... a true gov't model has a dimpled follower, a altered gov't model as is the case with most today do not... i think they had it right the first time... but opinions will vary....

[hutch1510]

here is some food for thought, the Military has used the 1911 and still does, every single one of there mags for this fine pistol has a dimpled flat follower and is of 7 round capacity, (ofcoarse specialty groups and ops may have more) but in general every service mag is 7 round flat follower "with dimple"...if you don't think they know what they are doing that's fine... i spent 11 yrs in the mil and watched followers on the M16 go from black to green , now who knows what color, but each time the follower was improved for better feed reliability, the flat dimpled 7 round mag has remained the same probably for over 90 yrs or more... if that's not proof enough for anyone ... well so be it, theres really not much more i could say, but it helps to know your gun and to know how it was designed and what keeps her running if you want a relaible and accurate gun... hope this helps.........

[Reconvic]

Try Wilson mags, the GRS loves them

[Hunter]

I understand the follower change in the military. I served 4 years in the Marine Corps. I also understand the premise behind the dimpled follower. I have a pile of 7 round magazines in that configuration. I myself did not just start shooting Government Models yesterday. With that said 8 round flat followers will work and do. I am not trying to start an argument on the theories of magazine function and design but there is more than 1 way to skin a goat.
If you choose not to use them fine but do not try to convince me they won't work, I know better.

[OD*]

every single one of there mags for this fine pistol has a dimpled flat follower and is of 7 round capacity
No sir, they all don't have the the flat follower 7 round capacity, the MEU(SOC) use Wilson-Rogers magazines.

[hutch1510]

no offense and you can put any spin on it that you want, but i know for a fact 7 round dimple flat follower is the the best time proven mag ... if you think the U.S. military ever found a better configuration and decided to hide it from the general service... than cangradulations... you have the wonderful "conspiracy theory".... i know 1911's very well, and i also know the the military had the weapon in it's arsenal for 90+ years.... i'll let what i know lie with the facts, rather than personal theory... carry any mag you want,,, but i know what i will rely on, and it will be on knowledge based on time proven design that is undisputed atleast to the person who looks at all the relevant facts proven through both history and the present... end of discussion for me.... have fun... hope you dont get in a fire fight.......

[Hunter]

so when you say you know for a fact you have tested the 8 rounders until failure and determined that said failure was a direct result of the magazine configuration.
Thank you for your concern but you needn't worry about the reliability of my Colts, they are time tested through 8 rounders.
What model are you shooting that gives you so much trouble with the 8 rounders.
Make no mistake I know Government Models very well myself. I do not see a need for this worthless banter. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe.
If you care to test this you are welcome to my range anytime.

[hutch1510]

well then you are saying you are right, and john moses brown is wrong, as well as the U.S. miltary is wrong ... like i said, personal opinions vary, i give john moses brown and the U.S. military more credit than either one of us... if you feel like arguing that point, go ahead.... your mags may work fine for you... but in general if you want the full proof design... you'll go with what has proven itself with over 90 yrs of military service... which is more than both you and me have combined with dealing with the 1911 pistol.... you already said you knew what the dimple was for.... sooooo, do you not agree it is a good thing???? or is it just a good thing that nevertheless you feel is not warranted.... thats how great weapeons turn to so so weapons over time... because people think they know better and all the little things get skipped over... the 1911 is a great gun in it's original configuration... when you stray from the original design it turns into a so so pistol at best... example.... loosing the dimple on the mag.... example... the extractor... ahhhh it does'nt need to be made of springed steel... anything will do.... bla bla bla.... it is this line of thinking that makes an excellent pistol, into a mediocre at best firearm..... get back to the basics.... the 1911 pistol was made to run with a DIMPLED FLAT FOLLOWER... thats it... it's undisbuted.... anyone who says different... well state why your philosophy is better... rather than the simple statement that "well it works".... if your gonna argue your point... than throw something out worth listening too... otherwise i will stick with the best design to date... based on solid 100% logic and knowledge on how things work with the 1911......

[Hunter]

OK you are right.

[BTF/PTM]

Try Wilson mags, the GRS loves them
thanks, at least someone is still on topic here :D

7 rounds...8 rounds...dimpled follower...flat follower...what is a follower? Where is a dimple on said follower? I'm a newbie to pistols and a newbie to 1911's, I just want a gun that doesn't fail and break on me twice in two danged months. Les Baer seems to have no problem with 8-round mags...Wilson Combat seems to have no problem with 8-round mags...Nighthawk Custom seems to have no problem with 8-round mags. Based on one side of this argument, every gun with an 8-round mag should be a total failure. I say your theory is backwards and you really need to look at what a true theory and analysis is.

Who cares how many rounds a mag can hold compared to how reliable it is? A magazine is a machine just like the pistol and it can be adjusted, tuned and designed to function properly if basic engineering processes are taken into account and the spring progression and mechanical motion of the magazine is analyzed and proper solutions applied. You people are all clinging helplessly to lore and legend and what you know works from personal experience. I am a mechanical engineer by trade, specifically one who specializes in customizing test environments to address specific problems within our company's mechanical, electrical and fuel delivery systems. The number of rounds in a magazine is absolutely irrelevant if that magazine is properly designed.

Now back to my topic, if you please (I'm gonna make some enemies with this post, aren't I?). :)

[hutch1510]

actually i never strayed from the topic at all, you have a broken extractor, 90% of the time when an extractor breaks or goes out of tune, it's because of thae magazine, the reason the dimple was added to the magazine was to solve this problem... as for your comments on the big manufacturers well ummm if you think they know more and are better than the original... that's fine... but if you stick with the 1911 and actually learn how your gun works ... you'll look back on your statement and realize just how off it actually was.... point is you have a broken extractor.... they break when the mags arent doing their job by offering enough resistance on the last shot so the extractor does'nt climb the rim and break, mags were to be made 7 rounds so the spring retains enough umphhh ...the dimple is there to offer a little hump of resistance... all this is in direct relationship to your extractor being out of tune and breaking... if your a mechanical engineer then you should'nt have a problem understanding this... if you want to blindly put your hands in some company cause you figure they know better... go ahead... it's your gun...

[BTF/PTM]

actually i never strayed from the topic at all, you have a broken extractor, 90% of the time when an extractor breaks or goes out of tune, it's because of thae magazine, the reason the dimple was added to the magazine was to solve this problem... as for your comments on the big manufacturers well ummm if you think they know more and are better than the original... that's fine... but if you stick with the 1911 and actually learn how your gun works ... you'll look back on your statement and realize just how off it actually was.... point is you have a broken extractor.... they break when the mags arent doing their job by offering enough resistance on the last shot so the extractor does'nt climb the rim and break, mags were to be made 7 rounds so the spring retains enough umphhh ...the dimple is there to offer a little hump of resistance... all this is in direct relationship to your extractor being out of tune and breaking... if your a mechanical engineer then you should'nt have a problem understanding this... if you want to blindly put your hands in some company cause you figure they know better... go ahead... it's your gun...

point taken :) I don't claim to know more than anyone about 1911's, I'm the first to admit I'm new to them. I just find it hard to believe that the top of the line gun makers use a method that is flawed, I'd bet that they've taken the extra round into account and have made corresponding design changes. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

And in regard to one comment you made, do you think I should use a 7-round mag in my Sig? I do think it's safe to assume the gun manufacturer knows what they're doing being that they're the ones doing the design work, but I've seen first hand that my Sig has issues that should have been addressed early on.

[silversport]

I believe the SIG supplied magazines (the ones that came with my STX were possibly "checkmate" made mags) had weak springs...I have six SIG mags and their springs were weak from the factory...I didn't really have any problems but changed them with Tripp's "upgrade" to CobraMag kits...about 8 bux a piece...new follower and spring...BIG difference in spring tension between the two...the upgrade, downgrades my mags to seven rounders but I have had no problems...no problems using my seven round MetalForm Mags either...
Bill

[BTF/PTM]

I believe the SIG supplied magazines (the ones that came with my STX were possibly "checkmate" made mags) had weak springs...I have six SIG mags and their springs were weak from the factory...I didn't really have any problems but changed them with Tripp's "upgrade" to CobraMag kits...about 8 bux a piece...new follower and spring...BIG difference in spring tension between the two...the upgrade, downgrades my mags to seven rounders but I have had no problems...no problems using my seven round MetalForm Mags either...
Bill

I've heard that it could be the mags...I'll contact Sig tomorrow and find out where the gun is, it should have arrived at their factory (shop?) this morning.

[akr]

I agree with what Hutch said, at least regarding my Sig XO Revolution. I had all kinds of FTFeed'S with my 8 rd weak springed Checkmate mags with smooth followers. The top rd (the 8th rd) was always hard to chamber. I ordered Wilson Combat springs(stronger springs) with followers (dimpled). Things were much better, but still had quite a problem with the top round chambering. I started putting 7 rds ONLY in the mags, and with the stronger springs and dimpled followers, it works just fine. I'm hoping that, by doing this, I will avoid future problems. ;)

[robertbank]

We are all victims of our own experience. I, like Hunter, have had no problems with 8 round mags. The Sig extractor broke cuzz it broke. Things made by man have a tendency to do that from time to time. It happens.

As to JMB original design, well I suspect if JMB was around today he would busy designing a composite, plastic handgun, light in a high capacity configuration. The man never sat on one design figuring it was the best and could never be improved.

A good friend of mind tells me the biggest room in the world is the room for improvement. Not a bad observation is it!

Take Care

Bob

[akr]

We are all victims of our own experience. I, like Hunter, have had no problems with 8 round mags. The Sig extractor broke cuzz it broke. Things made by man have a tendency to do that from time to time. It happens.

As to JMB original design, well I suspect if JMB was around today he would busy designing a composite, plastic handgun, light in a high capacity configuration. The man never sat on one design figuring it was the best and could never be improved.

A good friend of mind tells me the biggest room in the world is the room for improvement. Not a bad observation is it!

Take Care

Bob

That was a real good post, Bob. :)

[hutch1510]

while that statement "should" hold true...it does'nt apply to all circumstances, while the 1911 could be improved, it has'nt... much like the mauser K98, everyone borrowed from it, and few if any contributed anything, go out and buy a 1911 today and you will have a combination of cast and MIM parts... theres not one factory 1911 avail, with a true springed steel extractor, which is by far the best and what the pistol was designed for... mags are accessories, and theres a market for something new, people have money to burn, and the springs may be tougher so your eight round flat follower will work, but when that spring fatiges, is when you will wish you had the dimple... sure plenty of guns work with "unoriginal" parts, but in my opinion they are not improved... the gun works without a springed steel extrator too, that is until it breaks... so while i agree with your statement, i just disagree that any improvement has actually happened, quite the opposite in my opinion, a new 1911 today does'nt hold a candle to orignal... just like the mauser K98... rather than the design being improved, it rather has deteriorated, sad but true (atleast thats my opinion) but i also know alot of people share it...

[robertbank]

" a new 1911 today doesn't hold a candle to orignal"

You seem to be fixed on the concept that nothing has changed in the last 100 years with regards to manufacturing techniques and knowledge. Well with respect I beg to differ.

1. The quality of steel certainly has improved. While old technology, steel making during the 20th century improved significantly.

2. Computers have allowed for manufacturing of parts with much tighter tolerances than ever dreamed of 100 years ago. The ability to produce small parts via injected molds came into it's own after WW11 allowing for small parts to created without the need for extensive fittings.

3. Take a look at the original sights on a Colt 1911 manufactured in 1911 and compare them in use today. The owners of Novak and Heinie must be turning grey with any suggestion the original 1911 sights compare to their newest designs.

4. Have a gunsmith comment on the quality of the steel in an earlier produced 1911 and compare it with the steel used today.

5. Early Browning designs used the coil spring external extractor. Yes the internal spring steel extractors were easier to replace when they broke but are they better than the new Para internal coil spring extractor. Some would say no.

6. The ramped barrel first pioneered by Para in the 1911 and now copied by others has improved feeding while fully supporting the case. Throating standard barrels led to improved feeding and the wide use of semiwadcutter designed bullets that often choked in original designs.

7. While I personally prefer the FMSH the arched version corrected the tendency for the original design to point low in many hands.

8. The cut outs at the trigger guard allowed for smaller hands to purchase the gun better. The design changes that led to the A1 arose from complaints from the field about the original design and were made to appease those complaints.

The basic design of the 1911 has proven to be an excellent one but have there been improvements made on the gun, some would say yes. Have there been improvements in handgun designs since 1911, of course there have been. Designs that are easier to manufacture, less expensive to make and often for more reliable out of the box.

I think it goes without saying that most on this board are proud owners of 1911 designed pistols. To suggest though the design is the optime of pistol design and no other design compares in function and reliability is a statement few would make, I think.


Take care

Bob

[OD*]

The ramped barrel first pioneered by Para in the 1911 and now copied by others has improved feeding while fully supporting the case.
You mean from a factory production gun, not that they actually pioneered the ramped barrels for the 1911, correct?

[robertbank]

I believe Para was the first to market 1911's with ramped barrels in the 1911 design.

Not sure why somebody doesn't market a 1911 without the link. Must be a technical problem.

Take Care

Bob

[OD*]

I follow you now.

FWIW, Jimmy Clark offered ramped barrels for the 1911 all the way back to 1955.

[BTF/PTM]

Update:

The gun came home yesterday, I'm taking it to the range on friday along with my newly purchased Steyr 9mm (that I can't pick up until friday...stupid waiting period). I'm partially excited and partially afraid to shoot the Sig again. It's got a new extractor (obviously) and it's painfully obvious that it was test fired at the factory becuz it's filthy. I'm not sure if they choose not to clean the gun becuz they want the owner to see proof that it was test fired, or if it's that they're just in a rush and don't want to bother with cleaning it. Oh well...at least I know it was tested.

Anyway, once again Sig's customer service has been outstanding, they were nice enough to delay the shipping a day at my request becuz I specifically asked them to test the gun by using the slide stop to feed the initial round and when I made the request the gun was already packed and ready to ship. The service slip was also very clearly written so that Sig knew it was the second time my gun had failed, so hopefully they took a little extra care in making sure it was fixed. Wish me luck, or wish me a failure so I can get the Les Baer...whichever you prefer ;)

[hutch1510]

i'd personally want it filthy from shooting, so you knew it was put through a ringer, rather than clean and not knowing... i took all that firing safety pin jazz off my sig when i had her... turned her back into a model 70, and the trigger pull went from about 6-7 pounds to about 4-5 pounds and very crisp... you may or may not want to do that eventually... it's fairly normal to have a few hickups with some 1911's as you did... but so long as you have quality internals it's worth hashing it out til tuned, yours will probably be fine now... if not... jeez louise... however one must remember that mags are literally half the gun with semi automatics... so whatever mags you chose to run you have to be absolutly 100% sure their performing perfect.......

[BTF/PTM]

i'd personally want it filthy from shooting, so you knew it was put through a ringer, rather than clean and not knowing... i took all that firing safety pin jazz off my sig when i had her... turned her back into a model 70, and the trigger pull went from about 6-7 pounds to about 4-5 pounds and very crisp... you may or may not want to do that eventually... it's fairly normal to have a few hickups with some 1911's as you did... but so long as you have quality internals it's worth hashing it out til tuned, yours will probably be fine now... if not... jeez louise... however one must remember that mags are literally half the gun with semi automatics... so whatever mags you chose to run you have to be absolutly 100% sure their performing perfect.......
noted. any recommendations on mags? You seem to know a lot about the specifics of the Sig. I don't know squat about the internals of the gun as far as taking it apart goes; how hard is it to make it a series-70? Got a link or pictures?

[hutch1510]

i have a bunch of GI contract mags i run, but i also have a bunch of metalforms i run too... i personally choose them all to be 7rd flat follwer with dimple... checkmates seem to be all the rage now... i would follow the advise of (1911 tuner) and read everything he has to say on them.... i also run wolff extra power springs on them all.... get in on group buys and go to the magazine section and read read read.....

[pa_guns]

Hi

Just a suggestion.....

I would get at least a few hundred rounds through the pistol as it is before I did anything else to it.

Regardless of the merits of various bits and pieces the pistol *should* work flawlessly as supplied by SIG. As long as it's in "as supplied" condition they are very obviously responsible for what ever goes wrong.

Bob

[BTF/PTM]

Hi

Just a suggestion.....

I would get at least a few hundred rounds through the pistol as it is before I did anything else to it.

Regardless of the merits of various bits and pieces the pistol *should* work flawlessly as supplied by SIG. As long as it's in "as supplied" condition they are very obviously responsible for what ever goes wrong.

Bob

gun had had over 1000 rounds thru it the first time it went back to the factory, over 1200 when the extractor broke.

[pa_guns]

gun had had over 1000 rounds thru it the first time it went back to the factory, over 1200 when the extractor broke.

Hi

Then I'd probably get more than just a few hundred through it....

An ejector breaking after 2200 rounds is not unusual, but you need to be sure they didn't muck something else up fixing it.

Bob

[BTF/PTM]

I discovered what might be the problem the gun has had from day one. I put a post up in the troubleshooting/gunsmithing forum so I won't repeat it here. Suffice it to say that I think Sig just has no idea how to set the extractor on their 1911's. Go read and comment :)

[Kapow]

I discovered what might be the problem the gun has had from day one. I put a post up in the troubleshooting/gunsmithing forum so I won't repeat it here. Suffice it to say that I think Sig just has no idea how to set the extractor on their 1911's. Go read and comment :)

You are on the right track, you have a great gun so don't give up. Read my response post.

[pa_guns]

Hi

S&W 1911's also have external extractors. They are set up *very* differently than internal extractors. The normal "1911 tests" simply do not apply to most external extractors.

Bob

[BTF/PTM]

Took the GSR to the range tonite, four of us put at least 250 rounds thru it without a single hang-up. I think the new extractor finally fixed the problem. Here's to crossing my fingers and continuing to fire without incident from here on out :)

[Longslide]

That is great news - glad to see it is working out for you. How about the accuracy????

[silversport]

...glad to hear it and glad you stayed with it...once it is running 100% you're going to see what a fine firearm you purchased...just ask Longslide...I think he is collecting them all...I'm jealous!...:D
Bill

[BTF/PTM]

The accuracy was never in question, from shot number 1 this thing has been deadly accurate. I didn't notice any difference in function between the newly purchased Wilson Combat magazine and the two stock Sig mags, so that could mean the problem was all in the faulty extractor or it could mean that I'm just too new a shooter to be able to pick up on the little improvements a magazine can make. Heck, it could just be that I'm excited to have a gun that finally works without problems :D

[Longslide]

:D :lm: :D

[kidcoltoutlaw]

Is the SIG 1911 still working without problems,

Thanks,Keith

[Don]

I have two GSR's one from the first year of production and one form the second -- both 'old' enough to have the small screw with two dimples on the right rear of the slide -- holding in the series '80' plunger in the slide

one of my extractors broke 2 x -- on one of the guns -- I do not drop a slide on a chambered round, or do other dumb things, {usually !} and have fired 1911's for many years -- the darn thing broke 2 x -- Sig sent new ones for 'my' smith to install {me} -- no problems since -- likely the extractor hook was brittle, or poorly dimensioned, or something -- now the two GSR's run fine -- oh. by the way -- with and without the dimpled mag followers ! -- my gun are too stupid to know they should have those dimples on the followers -- I do have a couple of mags with dimples on the followers and they work ok, too

I do have to agree that John Browning was a genius and that 7 rounds is likely the optimal for gov't / full size mags -- I have a few Wilson 8 rounders, and now I only buy Mec-Gar or ACT {who private labels for Wolff and Novak} in 7 rounds, with Ni. plate over carbon steel --

if you MUST have stainless steel mags, go with Wilson's or the new Mec-Gar s.s. -- both use '17-4 P.H.' s.s. -- it is a high strength alloy and is the alloy Freedom Arms uses for their whole guns -- mags need 'spring steel' that that's why carbon steel mags with or without Ni plating are best for the $$$, as the carbon steel is a low cost spring steel vs. the special alloy -- plain s.s. mags will have their feed lips give out too soon, as the spring qualities of the mundane s.s. are not so good


Don

[TM4512]

Wow, I just learned a BOATLOAD about the extractor AND some magazine issues I have been having...MAJOR kudos on this thread...AWESOME.

[BTF/PTM]

^and maybe some day the folks at Sig will read this thread and notice that their GSR needs a lot of work. I will always stick to my original argument; a machine that needs any components other than its OEM components is a flawed design. Period. My P220 and P226 have been flawless from round No. 1, great firearms. Here's to hoping Sig develops their 1911 to match the rest of their world-class guns.

[TM4512]

Amen to that! Sig is definetly a manufacturer that one would expect QUALITY from...

[pa_guns]

Hi

I've spent pretty much my whole life designing stuff that gets manufactured.

A good design takes into consideration the manufacturing process that will be used to produce it. When SIG does a design from scratch, they do it knowing in advance how it will be produced.

With the 1911, you can't do that. The design was targeted long ago at 1910 or 1930's production processes. The manufacturing world has changed a *lot* since then. Making a modern 1911 is as much about setting up an "old style" production line as anything else. Re-designing the 1911 turns it into something else entirely.

The Germans are pretty high tech when it comes to production methods. They have a high cost of labor over there. Setting up a hand labor intensive line is *very* contrary to their thinking. My guess would be that the US arm of the company is pretty German in their approach.

As far as I can see, they have yet to fully understand just how different a 1911 is. The result is that some work a lot better than others.

Bob

[TM4512]

I totally agree...altho in the back of my mind I cant help but think that with all of the technology we have today...why does so much "custom" smithing have to be done to fit parts to a pistol in this day and age? Dont get me wrong...it does make the pistol unique, and priceless when it is complete...not to mention the sweet satisfaction of having something that has carried over throughout the years through war after war...and is still in use by so many in the professional field...you would just think that technology would help to improve...not degrade...and yes, the Germans are great...I carry an HK USP while on duty...and love it...(aside from the weight)...

[pa_guns]

Hi

A 945-1 is a 1911 as designed from scratch (more or less) by S&W. A P-220 is a 1911 as designed very much from scratch by SIG. If you sit down with each and a 1911 you can spot a *lot* of differences. Some of them are subtle, some of them are pretty obvious. Many of them adapt the pistol better to modern manufacturing.

A hand fit pistol has parts in it that are within "fit" tolerances. If you tried to measure what that means it might be 0.0001". It's a matter of matching rather than machining. If you do it by hand they can be matched. If you do it on a machine it must be done by tolerance.

The tolerance may build up across a number of parts. The link is a good example. You have a hole in the frame that mates to a hole in the link. There is a pin between them. Next you have the location of the hole in the link and the location of the other hole in the link. It mates to a hole in the barrel via another pin. That all comes back to the original pin via the lugs on the bottom of the barrel. I wonder why they don't use the link system much anymore ... :D :D :D

You can easily set up a modern tooling center to do a tenth of a thousandth. It's only a matter of a bit of work. The tooling center with that capability is an expensive system and time on it costs money. The money goes in a lot of directions.

One basic trick for tight tolerance is that you go slow. Slow on an expensive machine is not a good combination. It's a great way to make $200 disconnectors. Doing a full pistol that way would make a $3500 custom pistol look *very* inexpensive.

They can do it, but you would not be able to afford the result. That's doubly true because the pistol would not work any better than it's hand fitted cousin. The alternative is to widen out things and make looser pistols, that's not a popular one either ....

Bob

[TM4512]

Pro's and con's at either end of the spectrum...that is the unfortunate part about this sort of thing...altho I do enjoy the personality all of my 1911's have...mainly because each one of them is equally special in part because of its "hand fitting" or custom work in one way or another...

I like how you broke down the machine process with the $ amount...

Makes it a bit easier to understand why a 1911 is so popular...and costly..haha

[pa_guns]

.....

I like how you broke down the machine process with the $ amount...

.....

Hi

Send out a lot of parts and look at the quotes that come back. :D :D :D Been there and done that a lot of times. We don't do the real tight tolerance stuff on our CNC's. I certainly understand what's involved from *long* conversations about why we can't do a specific part in house. :butthead: :butthead:

There are some amazing machine shops out there, but they're not cheap. I also don't believe that *all* of them are ripping you off.

Bob

[TM4512]

I agree. I dont feel the slightest bit ripped off when the gunsmith charges such and such to fit some parts, or to tune any one of my pistols...

[pa_guns]

I agree. I dont feel the slightest bit ripped off when the gunsmith charges such and such to fit some parts, or to tune any one of my pistols...

Hi

That's really the point. You can still get a "fit" job on a 1911 for less money than doing it another way. If you are going to be in the 1911 business, you have to face up to that and adjust.

When adjusting involves a step back, it an be *tough* to face up to.

Bob

[TM4512]

As the saying goes "the proof is in the pudding"

the "proof" being the fact that if it wasnt a good pistol...(the 1911 in general I mean...obviously because not every manufacturer makes a QUALITY product)...they wouldnt be such a desireable piece to have.

I have a few pistols that I carry, and some I dont...and I always seem to lean towards a 1911...why? I dunno. I mean I have a few polymer pistols, and I dont have any issues with them...I have some revolver's...good stuff...I carry a USP on duty...great weapon...

There is just something about a 1911...bone stock GI...or total custom (enter name here)