Which condition is safer?

[jdmerk]

Far from being the normal "which condition of carry is safer" question, I would like to know which condition of carry is safer were you to loose the weapon in a struggle. The scenerio is this: someone attacks you from behind, you attempt to draw but are overwhelmed, you lose posession of the weapon and it is turned on you. The attacker however has little to no experience with weapons...just what he's seen in the movies (invision bullets knocking people off buildings and blowing up cars etc). The confrontation is still in very close quarters only this time you are unarmed, he is not. Question: which condition of cary would be more difficult or less likely for him to get off a shot before you could either flee or wrestle the gun back away from him? Condition I, II, or III? (P.S. condition II is only in there because it fits licely between I and III)

[John]

The days when crooks didn't know how to operate a firearm are long gone. The first thing that a bad guy will do is pull the trigger. If this doesn't fire the gun, he will usually go for the slide, racking it to chamber a round.

I guess Condition I is still the king of safety, with the safety engaged, he can't fire by pulling the trigger, he can't rack the slide.

Of course, that means he is not a 1911 expert, who knows where the safety is and depresses it.

[taxlawmax]

I (speculatively) agree with John. Assuming the guy isn't familiar enough with 1911's, the thumb safety isn't so intuitive or obvious that anyone would guess how to use it. Also, someone might be discouraged when the slide doesn't rack.

[Hawkmoon]

With any luck, the bad guy will be so conditioned by seeing movies in which guns always go "click" (loudly) when empty that if he pulls the trigger in Condition 1 and nothing happens his little brain will instantly freeze, allowing you to overpower him without resistance.

In this part of the country, the preferred gangsta handgun seems to be the Glock (in various calibers), followed by the Beretta. Most gangstas around here probably would be at least slowed down by a 1911 in Condition 1.

[Ric4509]

I agree with the Commandante.

[Barry in IN]

I think it just depends on who gets your weapon.
Some would probably just give up after the trigger pull. Some would still be messing with it long after you've ran off. The rest fall in between.

Around here, if it's not a Glock or Ruger Pxx, most of the "gangstas" won't be familiar with it. You might have a decent chance with a 1911 to at least get a head start at running away.

About ten to fifteen years ago, two guys came into an Indianapolis gunshop and disarmed the owner of his HK P7. They took him to the bathroom to execute him, but couldn't figure out how to make the gun work. While they goofed around, he got a hidden revolver and shot them both.
An oddball gun can be a lifesaver.

[Hawkmoon]

We have seen some individuals at local ranges who were assumed to be gang members, but they didn't cause any trouble so they did their thing and left. But not all bad guys are knowledgeable. About three years ago a guy came into a local gun shop and asked to buy a box of 9mm "bullets." The owner sold him a box of ammo and the guy left.

Awhile later the guy came back, with a friend, and asked to gun shop owner to show him how to load the gun--a Beretta 92. So the shop owner dropped the magazine and tried to show the guy how to load the "clip." However, he was unable to make the "bullets" fit in the "clip." Puzzled, he looked at the gun, and he saw "8mm" inscribed somewhere on the side. So he picked it up and inspected it more closely. Sure enough, our intrepid gangsta had bought an 8mm blank-firing replica, thinking he was getting a "deal" on a 9mm Beretta.

If I am ever held up, I hope it will be by someone equally intelligent.

Back to the basic question of this thread -- the movies show people racking slides to load and cock guns all the time. To me this suggests that Condition 3 would not offer a lot of security because it's something that would be familiar to a bad guy. Even in the Steven Seagal movies, though (Seagal usually uses a 1911, in you didn't already know that), they rarely if ever even show him releasing the thumb safety, so it's not something most bad guys might think of immediately. Given a choice between the two, I'd go for Condition 1.

[Pappy]

Not an answer to the original question but, why not carry a back-up gun (BUG) and plug the bad guy while he is hopefully fumbling (condition 1)...

[Hunter]

I will agree that condition 1 is still the way to go. A friend of mine who is a police officer stopped by to visit. I showed him my Colt GCT and he asked about the safety (it was in condition 1 at the time). He though the thumb safety was a decocker. After (much) ribbing I explained to him about the single action Government Model pistol. Up to that moment he hated Colts but when he actually got a chance to check one out for himself (instead of listening to others) he commented on the feel and looks.
Most folks are not familiar with the Government Model.

[ArmscorBA]

:dead_hors :dead_hors
;) :p :p
Ivan

[Pappy]

:dead_hors :dead_hors
;) :p :p
Ivan

Ivan, i'm curious, why is this thread 'beating a dead horse'? The member asked a very good question. Thanks...

[Naga]

I favor condition 1. Many criminals are going to know to rack a slide on an auto. When a sear blocking safety is engaged and the criminal is not familiar with the weapon, in this case the 1911, hopefully they will fumble with the safety and give you time to take positive life preserving action.

Basically, I agree with previous postings.

[OD*]

Ivan, i'm curious, why is this thread 'beating a dead horse'? The member asked a very good question. Thanks...
I think because it has been discussed here so frequently. ;)

[Pappy]

I think because it has been discussed here so frequently. ;)

Oh I know why it was posted.

But It was an over reaction to a new member asking a question.

I doubt he wanted to see this response.

If a new guy joins, everyone says Hi, welcome and we're here to help, etc.

I'll chill now....

[lincoln county law]

My vote goes for condition-one. A recent academy class came through, with several recruits carrying 1911's. Some of these people couldn't, at first, get off a shot when the targets turned,because they continually failed to disengage the safety! And they are supposed to KNOW how the handguns function.

[jdmerk]

Its really not an issue, I know there is always somebody on every forum who is always gonna get high and mighty with the new guys and berate them about the infallible "search button". I just asked because I got my CCW a few days ago, have two 1911's which I might carry and have not yet seen any posts or stickies on the subject in any forums on this sight...I thought it was a pertinent and responsible question. Sorry if i disappointed.

[Soft Walker]

JDMerk,

Who cares what Ivan thinks, he is just one guy. The real answer to your question, and it is an important one is there are only two conditions for the 1911 pistol which are safe.
Condition One is safe and condition three is safe. Here is the reason; any other condition will sooner or later result in a misfire.

Here is the drill:
Completely empty pistol- no magazine, action the slide a few times and actually look into the chamber and inspect it to make sure it is empty, then go ahead decock the empty pistol.

Now for condition 3 simple insert the loaded magazine. This is normally good enough unless your going to harms way. To put the gun into action keep your finger off the trigger and pull the slide back fully and let go - then your cocked and ready to shoot.

Next if you want condition 1, keeping your finger off the trigger, fully rack the slide back and let go. The action of the main spring will move the slide back into battery,
then with the pistol still cocked you activate the thumb safety.

To uncock and /or unload the pistol: remove the magazine, keep finger off trigger, pull the slide back rapidly to eject the cartridge, inspect the pistol to make sure there are no cartridges in the breech/ chamber area, let the slide go back into battery on a empty chamber. Then decok the empty gun.

Never use condition two: Sooner or latter you will have a misfire. It make take years but it will happen. Avoid half cock as well.

Condition one is totally safe. It is an approved way to carry the gun. So is condition three. Its your choice, just avoid condition two.

[DouglasW]

JDMerk,

Here is the drill:
Completely empty pistol- no magazine, action the slide a few times and actually look into the chamber and inspect it to make sure it is empty, then go ahead decock the empty pistol.

Now for condition 3 simple insert the loaded magazine. This is normally good enough unless your going to harms way. To put the gun into action keep your finger off the trigger and pull the slide back fully and let go - then your cocked and ready to shoot.

Next if you want condition 1, keeping your finger off the trigger, fully rack the slide back and let go. The action of the main spring will move the slide back into battery,
then with the pistol still cocked you activate the thumb safety.

To uncock and /or unload the pistol: remove the magazine, keep finger off trigger, pull the slide back rapidly to eject the cartridge, inspect the pistol to make sure there are no cartridges in the breech/ chamber area, let the slide go back into battery on a empty chamber. Then decok the empty gun.

Never use condition two: Sooner or latter you will have a misfire. It make take years but it will happen. Avoid half cock as well.

Condition one is totally safe. It is an approved way to carry the gun. So is condition three. Its your choice, just avoid condition two.

This is why I love this forum. I know all of the above...but a year ago I didn't. Factual, concise instructions and advice for we 1911 newbies. Thank you!

[Woodman]

And folks, don't think that Ivan was being high and mighty. Ivan was simply posting a humorous picture over a topic that quite literally does come up monthly. I am sure no offense was meant towards our new members, which is why he went with the funny emoticon.

We all get along pretty well here. Don't take anything out of context. We give eachother a little grief now and then, as many friends do in real life. I think of most board members as friends as well, just ones I haven't met face to face yet.

[OD*]

Absolutely agree, Woodman.

[Ping Ping]

The days when crooks didn't know how to operate a firearm are long gone. The first thing that a bad guy will do is pull the trigger. If this doesn't fire the gun, he will usually go for the slide, racking it to chamber a round.

I guess Condition I is still the king of safety, with the safety engaged, he can't fire by pulling the trigger, he can't rack the slide.

Of course, that means he is not a 1911 expert, who knows where the safety is and depresses it.

I have banked on the "unfamiliarity with 1911s" thing for many years.

Just when I thought this was an absolute... I was visiting my parents at their home a while back and was showing them one of my new pistols. My 72yr old mom can count the number of guns she's shot on one hand and had never seen a 1911 first hand.

I did a visual and physical check for clear and handed her my gun. As a matter of habit, I flicked up the thumbsafety before handing it to her. First thing she did after asking me if it was clear (she is good about safety) was to flick the thumbsafety off!!! I nearly fell off the porch! :scared:

[lincoln county law]

Ping Ping, please send your mother to our academy.

[twin oaks]

The original scenario gives good reason to have a well concealed pistol in the first place, and more reason to have a 'grab resistant' holster- i.e. with a forward cant. I've checked out a few that are very difficult to draw from at the wrong angle. This is due to a 'camming' action if the pistol isn't pulled forward on the draw.
My vote goes to Cond. 1, for the reasons previously posted.

I guess though if you were in that bad of an area, the question would be 'why was it still holstered?'

Also a good reason for a BUG.

[uzi554]

I would say condition III, I mean, condition I for example, the thumb safety is similar to many other safeties on pistols(it's always on the back left of the slide) . Anyway, racking the slide on the 1911 takes practice cause if you rack it like an idiot it'll jam. but jam or not, while he is trying to chamber a bullet, turn around and uppercut him, grab back your gun, chamber a bullet, and empty the magazine into him.

[sprice1973]

I carry condition 1,i agree with uzi554 statment above,the guy will get a Corps beat down while trying to figure the gun out!

[Woodman]

I would say condition III, I mean, condition I for example, the thumb safety is similar to many other safeties on pistols(it's always on the back left of the slide) . Anyway, racking the slide on the 1911 takes practice cause if you rack it like an idiot it'll jam. but jam or not, while he is trying to chamber a bullet, turn around and uppercut him, grab back your gun, chamber a bullet, and empty the magazine into him.

My problem with that method of getting your gun back is dealing with the stab wound/gunshot wound/punch to the face/groin that aided the bad guy in getting your gun away from you in the first place and banking on them being unfamiliar enough with the gun to screw up racking it and shooting you with your own gun.

Were I in a situation that required use of my weapon, I'd hope I wouldn't have to retrieve it from the person I intend to use it on first.

[Cactus]

My problem with that method of getting your gun back is dealing with the stab wound/gunshot wound/punch to the face/groin that aided the bad guy in getting your gun away from you in the first place and banking on them being unfamiliar enough with the gun to screw up racking it and shooting you with your own gun.

Were I in a situation that required use of my weapon, I'd hope I wouldn't have to retrieve it from the person I intend to use it on first.




Man..... Amen !

I do agree that for 'me,' condition 1, is how I always carry. But like you said, I would hope I would not be in the shape of having to get the gun back! It would be very difficult, to get the gun back from an attacker, after being, 'as you put it', punched/kicked/or shot/or stabbed. I think about any Idiot BG could by this time, figure out how to opperate the gun, and shoot you.

I may be way off here, but I don't see a complete fail safe way of carry, 1,2,3, "IF the BG gets the gun." Might as well just go with cond. 1, and be done with it.

I tried an experiment a good while back on a friend of mine. I checked, and re-checked, and re-checked, my gun, to make sure NO bullets!!!

I handed him the gun, in Condition 3... (he is a former Marine), and I got back 10 feet from him, and said..... "Ok, you got NO cartridge in the chamber, now pretend you have to get one in there and shoot me before I get to you....."

I was on him like stink on a skunk, yelling, and screaming, and acting phyco, (he did not know i was going to do all this yelling), and he "didn't come close" to gettng anything done to hurt me, and I took him down! He said, "I scared the snot out of him..." Well, what do ya think the BG is going to do? Ask you to please take your time, I'll wait for ya!

Point.... This guy even had a warning, of 'here i come,' and even knew he had to jack one in, and in 10 feet, charging him like a bull, he had NO chance!

Point 2.... I did this to "convince HIM," to stop carrying his gun in cond 3.

You never know what is in the bushes, and how fast it's coming, and from where. I do not want to rely on hoping I have cat like reflex in the midst of it all, to jack one in, and get a good shot on top of that, before I am creamed.

"Do try this at home," with a buddy, you will be surprised how fast your on him, before he knows it. It is a very eye opening experiment. " Please have all ammo a mile away from you" !!!!! :D


Cactus
Condition 1 ;)

[John]

Get an airsoft blowback pistol and do some man-to-man drills with them. You will be amazed at how quickly the attacker can be all over you, before you even had the chance to clear leather. Remember folks, you will be using your firearm as a reaction to a threat. And action beats reaction every time, so your reaction should be quick, swift and accurate if you want to survive.

[sprice1973]

Well put John.