Why extended slide release?

[hound46]

I may be showing my ignorance regarding operation of the 1911 with this question, so my apologies if this is an incorrect assumption:

I thought-and maybe incorrectly so-that when loading/reloading a 1911, the slide was supposed to be pulled to the rear (or more to the rear in a reload scenario)--and released.

What would be the purpose of an extended slide release if this is the case?

[Joni Lynn]

I really have no real clue....(about many things) I think of it as something that can catch on things it shouldn't and not do much that wouldn't work just as well left alone.

[Ping Ping]

I may be showing my ignorance regarding operation of the 1911 with this question, so my apologies if this is an incorrect assumption:

I thought-and maybe incorrectly so-that when loading/reloading a 1911, the slide was supposed to be pulled to the rear (or more to the rear in a reload scenario)--and released.

What would be the purpose of an extended slide release if this is the case?

Fast reloads in competition.

Also, some pistols like more force and less travel.

Spec says, slingshot.

For years, I have heard much-lauded pistolsmiths advocate both methods, for different reasons. "It's a STOP; NOT a RELEASE!" Or, "Drop from the slide stop, it affords more rapid force."
Whatever.
Some guns dig it. Some guns don't.
Some shooters rely on it. Some shooters are not convinced.

From a position of self-proclaimed "ignorance", I would continue to use the slingshot method. After all, it's been tried and true for a hundred years.

[Cap]

count me as one of the ignernt onez

I've used both methods.
Don't have an extended slide stop and don't intend to get one
But latley it seems easier/faster/smoother to load the mag and drop the slide stop with support hand while moving to it's shooting position
Just seems more natural and kind of an "all in one " smooth motion for the support hand from mag insert to slide drop to grip position


..L.T.A.

[Frank]

At different schools I've been trained two different ways. One school pushes the sling shot. Another teaches dropping the slide with the slide stop/slide releaseusing the weak hand as you come up to complete your firing grip. Both methods have seemed to be equally fast for me and to work equally well.

Of course neither requires an extended slide stop. So I have to conclude that an extended slide stop is another answer looking for a question.

DVC

[Hawkmoon]

You can reach an extended slide stop with the thumb of your right hand.

That's why.

Normally, I'm in the slingshot school but for a tactical reload I can see an advantage to being able to drop the slide one-handed while the support hand is still moving back to the support position. Even if you use the support hand, the extended slide stop is easier to find and manipulate.

The one I see zero need for is the extended thumb safety paddle. :shrug:

[carsten1911]

The one I see zero need for is the extended thumb safety paddle. :shrug:
Hawk,

that´s for competition only, usually.

The extended thumb safety is sort of "misused" for a thumb rest like European style bullseye pistol have- but those have ergonomical grips with a big thumb rest .
The safety extension is supposed to create a similar rest. To take real advantage of that better hand position is only possible under "clinical/ comp" conditions, at least in my eyes. But then again I am anti-expert to combat use of guns, frankly spoken.

Topic slingshot vs. slide release:
When my 1911 suffered from hammer follow it only did this when I was using the slide release, never while being slingshot.
So there seems to be a point to a higher forward speed of the slide when using the release....at least from my experience.
(Of course the hammer follow was properly adressed and is history ;-) )

Carsten

[carsten1911]

I really have no real clue....(about many things) I think of it as something that can catch on things it shouldn't and not do much that wouldn't work just as well left alone.

Hi Joni,

your picture says it all... we lefties can only smile at the topic of extended releases:
The slide stop is one of the very few things created and placed only for the pleasure and comfort of us south-paws, aint it ;)

No need for support hand use, changing the grip or otherwise embarrasing fumbling round the gun :lm:

Carsten

[Frank]

...The extended thumb safety is sort of "misused" for a thumb rest ...But then again I am anti-expert to combat use of guns, frankly spoken....
Actually, the grip generally used by IPSC/IDPA shooters and taught at places like Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc., is the high thumb riding the safety at all times. This serves several purposes: it keeps the grip high and close to the axis of the bore helping to reduce perceived recoil and muzzle flip; it helps assure that the safety gets disengaged, especially on the draw; and it helps assure that the safety stays disengaged during rapid fire. So the thumb riding the safety is the accepted and common "combat" grip.

DVC

[sine-bar]

I'm left handed too and find that I can reach it just fine.But I think the release is the proper way to do it or JMB wouln't have put it there. ;)

[Hawkmoon]

So the thumb riding the safety is the accepted and common "combat" grip.
Uh huh.

I first shot a 1911 when I was in the U.S. Army in 1967. You IPSC/IDPA shooters will just have to excuse me if I have a different understanding of what constitutes a "combat" grip.

[Frank]

Well the Modern Technique of the Pistol wasn't published until 1991. I suspect that they were teaching the "thumb ride grip" at Gunsite prior to that, but Gunsite started up around 1977, So of course your initiation to the 1911 pre-dates the modern technique by a while.

I should have specified that the thumb riding the safety is the current accepted and common combat grip.

DVC

[REAPER]

Watch this. (http://video.google.com/videohosted?docid=-4584332856867071363)

[carsten1911]

Watch this. (http://video.google.com/videohosted?docid=-4584332856867071363)

Yes, I know that video and who am I to say I know better than the true aces?

But still he is a sporting, not a combat gunner.

There are expert shots and expert shots, both good in their own way.
But a sporting shooter does not think combat, IMHO. They aim at perfection, not at surviving. They know they always will shot and the targets dont fire back, real world gun mastery is just the opposite: Am I ALLOWED to shot or will I go to jail for it? Fear of overreaction, taking REAL cover, adrenaline, reluctance to kill, pain and fear are strangers to sporting gunners, therefore they are not the perfect source for combat gunning, again just MHO.

If Frank tells Gunsite et alii teach it, too, that is something different. They fall in another category, from what I know. I would expect to have military , security and LE experienced trainers there.

Carsten

[REAPER]

Yes, I know that video and who am I to say I know better than the true aces?

But still he is a sporting, not a combat gunner.



Carsten
That video was taken at Blackwater. (http://www.blackwaterusa.com)

[Frank]

There is significant crossover of technique between combat shooting and IPSC/IDPA sport shooting. Many of the top IPSC shooters are teaching their techniques for shooting fast and accurately at "practical" or combat oriented venues like Blackwater. And at Gunsite, most of the instructors I've had came from a law enforcement and/or military background.

Of course, there's the constant debate between proponents of the Weaver and those of the Modern Isosceles, but let's not go there please. It won't resolve anything. The point is that these days whether one is trained in the Weaver or the Isosceles, and whether one is trained from an action pistol sport perspective or a combat perspective, it seems that one is trained to keep the strong hand thumb riding the safety. In either case, the thumb riding the safety serves the same two important functions: it helps assure that the safety gets disengaged; and it helps assure the the safety stays disengaged since otherwise the recoil pulse could push the thumb up under the safety to engage it at an inopportune time.

DVC

[carsten1911]

There is significant crossover of technique between combat shooting and IPSC/IDPA sport shooting. Many of the top IPSC shooters are teaching their techniques for shooting fast and accurately at "practical" or combat oriented venues like Blackwater. And at Gunsite, most of the instructors I've had came from a law enforcement and/or military background.

Of course, there's the constant debate between proponents of the Weaver and those of the Modern Isosceles, but let's not go there please. It won't resolve anything. The point is that these days whether one is trained in the Weaver or the Isosceles, and whether one is trained from an action pistol sport perspective or a combat perspective, it seems that one is trained to keep the strong hand thumb riding the safety. In either case, the thumb riding the safety serves the same two important functions: it helps assure that the safety gets disengaged; and it helps assure the the safety stays disengaged since otherwise the recoil pulse could push the thumb up under the safety to engage it at an inopportune time.

DVC

Frank and Reaper ,

your (Frank´s) arguments for the high ride sound logic...and I never said any of this was wrong.
I just wanted to point out that if I took a class for "real world" shooting I´d rather have a teacher who really dodged bullets for a living, who has "been there, done that":

If combat experienced teachers say that high ride gives you significant advantage and it is doable with hot lead everywhere then it must be ok.

I just would not trust a technique taught by a civilian, no matter how many cups and prizes he won, without an "ok" to this technique from a true fighter, thats all.

Carsten

[John]

I do not know folks, I understand the reasons for a high thumb, on the safety, unfortunately I can't get used to it. Have to practice more I guess, but no matter how much I try my thumb doesn't go there! Go figure.

As for the extended slide stop, why indeed?

[Hawkmoon]

High thumb simply doesn't work for this old dog as being a "real world" hold, because in the end a pistol was designed to be fired with one hand. The "modern technique" now sees us using a support hand to enhance accuracy, but if that support hand is injured we revert to firing one-handed. There's no way I'm going to gran a 1911 in a "high thumb" grip one-handed. Therefore, I hold the pistol as I hold any pistol when firing one-handed, and I use the support hand for ... support.

To each his own, I suppose.

[Frank]

The high thumb can work equally well one handed (even weak handed with an ambi safety). It's a question of how one has trained and practiced. I use the highthumb even when shooting one handed, and it feels completely natural. I think I'd be decidedly uncomfortable without my thumb on the safety.

And Carsten, the "Modern Technique" was formulated by folks who "had been there and done that."

DVC

[Quasi Moto]

The problem I have with thumb high on safety is my accursed short fingers. Even with thin grips installed on my 1911s I can barely engage the trigger when using thumb high technique. Maybe if I install short triggers I can become more comfortable that way but I feel a bit uneasy using thumb high at this time. I have tried it safely at the range and will try it again to see if I can find a way to be comfortable and safe. But until I do I will stay with Weaver stance traditional hand grip.

[Joni Lynn]

Everytime I've tried that way the grip safety will sometimes fail to disengage enough for the gun to fire.

[Cap]

funny, just this evening I tried the thumb high riding on top the safety

I should preface, my shooting skills are basic/proficient at best.
But Honest to goodness, I shot better today.
Not really sure why.
Two things I noticed though, while using the thumb high grip;

1.) the web of my hand was slightly higher/closer to the bore axis
2.) it changed ever so slightly, the pad of my finger on the trigger.

Maybe it was those tiny slight adjustments that made the difference
or maybe I was "in the zone" this evening, I donno.

Going to try both ways next time and see if I notice any difference

..L.T.A.

[Frank]

I also have short fingers, and the high thumb works for me. But I also install short triggers in all my 1911s, although I prefer standard thickness grips.

Of course the "speed bump" grip safety, which many find not to be especially esthetically pleasing is intended to overcome the problem with assuring the disengagement of the grips safety.

It's hard to know exactly what the true traditional grip with the Weaver stance is, because Jack Weaver shot, I believe, a revolver.

DVC

[carsten1911]

because in the end a pistol was designed to be fired with one hand.

I guess that is the most important thing to remember: The grip must be doable even if the situation is sub-optimum for the shooter. And I guess it is really a matter of training what is doable for the individual shooter...high thumb or not.

But sure the low thumb is the firmer grip should you be in the bad situation a BG tries to grab your pistol or catches you with an empty gun...smashing it in his face is probably easier with a low thumb.
While it´s true, lots of things must have gone wrong should it come that far, who knows? :)

(just playing devil´s advocate here, not trying to talk someone out of his habits. As I already pointed out I am an anti combat-expert and full scale armchair commando!)

Carsten

[dakota1911]

I had to go back to the first post on this. The slide release is no a huge expense. I would try one and see if I liked it. An even cheaper route would be to try a gun of a shooting buddy who has a pistol with one.

For me, and I have tried several over the years, it has been "6 of one and half a dozen of the other", but people have different hands so it may be an aid to some.

[tenx]

The extended slide stop as well as extended thumb safties, ambi safties, duck tail grip safties, buffers all seem to be the current fad developed from competition or manufacturers coming up with the latest and greatest to sell parts or services or guns.
The extended safties remind me of the big fins on cars in the fifties. Showy but eventually going away. I rather hope the same happens with these.

There is a reliability issue with the extended slide stop. The added mass will sometimes cause the stop to rise up in recoil and engage the slide. I have had this happen. The simple fix is to dimple or lightly groove the stop where the plunger touches the stop to create a bit of resistence. Simple fix, but you shouldn't have to do this.

If feel the same way about the extended thumb safties. More stuff sticking out to get in the way or snag.

The high rise duck tail grip safties let my hand ride up too high. I can't get used to that compared to the original design. I never had any problem with hammer bite, even with XL hands. So, again, I don't see the benefit.

The ambi safties have their place for the lefties. I shoot long guns left and hand guns right. So I can go either way with this.

All in all, I prefer the original design, it works better for me.

If others like those, well it is nice to have the choice, as long as they can add and fit the items and have a reliable gun.