1911 reliability

[cajunfj40]

I am looking at building up a new Colt 70 series. Reliability is my number one concern. What should I do to ensure the pistol functions under adverse conditions such as mud snow and other extremes? I would like to improve the factory accuracy but im concerned about debris in a too snug slide to frame fit. I would appreciate a list of modifications that are a must have on a pistol meant for harsh places sometimes with little or no care.

Thanks any input helps

[Sniper350]

A lot of the Colts I have handled have a fairly loose frame to Slide fitment. All that's needed is to leave these tolerances alone.

You can install an "angle bore" barrel Bushing form EGW and that will give you some control over how tight you zip up the front end.

I would have the pistol go through the "Melonite" treatment ......a surface case hardening treatment that gives the weapon a black finish and an unbelieveable rust proofing treatment........... it also has a high self- lubricating factor to the treatment. Every part of the weapon will be treated except the extractor and small springs.

I have found reliability to be a somewhat fleeting ghost at times. Some guns no matter how much work you sink into them, just never approach that magical 100%. Other guns I have owned ................just never fail, no matter what ammo I load into it and no matter how much I ignore its care.
Point being - reliability - I think is born into the weapon, it either has it or it doesn't ........it seems awfally hard to add later on, although a great gunsmith can sometimes cure many problems. I would rather carry the weapon that was born at the factory with Reliability installed in its soul.

JF.

[twin oaks]

#1: If you have a NEW 70 series Colt, it ain't all that new. Any new Colt will be a series 80.
#2: What do you need to make it reliable? Good ammo, clean it regularly. John Moses Browning was a genius, and designed the pistol to be used in trench warfare. I seriously hope you will not be facing any conditions that severe. As built (factory) it's reliable. Accuracy? You can go for a tighter built pistol, but it's basically easier to just master YOUR pistol ( that means shoot the p-waddling out of it until you KNOW where the bullet will go). You do run the risk of junk jams if you make it too tight, as you said. You might look into the oversized FPS, read the sticky on that one. It actually retrofits the pistol to the original design.
If you're really interested in customizing the pistol, go for things like better grips, better magazines, if you need them, and perhaps a nice set of sights. The milspec sights are a little hard to pick up in the dark, but that goes back to the 'mastering your pistol' bit. Once you have a slightly enhanced pistol, you won't need all the pretty stuff. Remember: JMB designed the pistol with some slop in the parts to accomodate BATTLEFIELD conditions. There's not much you need to do to have a reliable pistol with a 1911.

[twin oaks]

Hey Sniper, where can you send one for the Melonite ? I'd love to have it.

[Iron bottom]

I'm doing the same thing, Cajun. So far; Cylinder and Slide hammer (spur),sear and disconnector to get rid of the questionable, in my opinion, parts. Barsto NM barrel and bushing, not required, the Colt barrel was fine. Barstock slide stop and safety, again, not essential. EGW firing pin stop. Crimson Trace laser sight for old eyes. This laser sight is addictive. No slide or frame work. The one I have was reliable as shipped with any ammo I put through it. I just can't help playing gunsmith. :D I expect Colt fits their pistols to deal with harsh treatment and weather.

[1911Tuner]

Loose doesn't guarantee reliability any more than tight guarantees accuracy.
Too much of either and you lose both.

There's a clew in there. Think about it and it'll come to ya.;)

[twin oaks]

ahh, more sage advice from yon' Master Tuner.

[1911Tuner]

more sage advice

Nope. That's a riddle.

One more clew, and I'm outta here. 0400 comes early in these parts.

Why would too loose make the gun less reliable? (And it will.)

FWIW...The old guns didn't rattle when they were new. In fact, the "Trench Warhorses"
were actually pretty tightly fit...moreso than their WW2 counterparts.

Bedtime!

[OD*]

#1: If you have a NEW 70 series Colt, it ain't all that new. Any new Colt will be a series 80.
Not quite.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/Series70.asp

[cajunfj40]

Thanks yes where for that melonite treatment? Yep the Col Custom Shop 70 series the one the gunsite was built on. Right?

[shovelwrench]

Maybe I can answer Tuners riddle.

Too loose and too much dirt can get in, too tight and the slightest bit that does locks em up.

Just a thought.

[irq23]

Loose doesn't guarantee reliability any more than tight guarantees accuracy.
Too much of either and you lose both.

There's a clew in there. Think about it and it'll come to ya.;)
+1 I agree with Tuner. A reliable gun does not have to be loose, though you can go to far in a super-tight target gun. Proper fitting of parts is much more important.

[OD*]

Yep the Col Custom Shop 70 series the one the gunsite was built on. Right?
Well, not exactly. Yes the Gunsites are Series '70 type actions, but they weren't necessarily built on the Series '70s pistols. They are built on the the Model O frame & slide that hasn't had the extra milling preformed for the additional Series 80 safety parts. They (the Gunsites) do however have the 10mm cut-out on the frame rail which the later Series '70 repros do not have. Simply put, the Gunsites are not Series '70 pistols doctored-up to be Gunsites, but are in fact Model O pistols built especially to be Gunsites. ;)

[Hunter]

My idea is that loose guns may have an inconsistent operation. There is a degree of precision to machine operation that needs consistent operation to function correctly.

[dogdollar]

Hello Cajun,
I was raised in New Orleans and worked the oilfield from Lafayette to Morgan City to Houma and Leeville for 30+ years, so even though I am not a natural-born cajun, I am at least an honorary one and wouldn't steer you wrong on something like this.....
Make sure you have a BASELINE good gun. Take the time and money to send it to someone who will measure and evaluate every aspect of the weapon - feed ramp, chamber, breech face, etc. Throwing expensive parts into an out of spec weapon is insanity and a chase after your own tail, mon ami. Change all of the springs you have no history on and establish a round count log for the gun so you will know when they may be on the decline. Clean and lube to perfection on the good days - it will serve you well on the bad ones.

If you need a recommendation for a gunsmith, PM me.He is a Master of his craft - 1911 pistols. He will listen to what you want and he will tell you what you need, and he knows what it is to have a budget and have to prioritize.

DON'T let people tell you what parts or finish you have to have. Any 1911 pistol is a system in and of itself, and every part somehow effects the other. Let a guy who spends his life working on them tell you what will work and why, then you take it from there, smarter and on the right track.

Sounds like you want a gun you can bet your life on. Don't take any shortcuts and you'll get there......and a perfectly functioning, accurate and reliable 1911 is indeed a joy to own.

Tim

[Sniper350]

Here is where to get the

Melonite Finish ............NO ONE HAS TO HAVE ..........

http://www.coalcreekarmory.com/finishing.php

Cut and paste to your browser.

Sheez.......... I now know where 1911Tuner is coming from :butthead:

JF.

[Hawkmoon]

I would appreciate a list of modifications that are a must have on a pistol meant for harsh places sometimes with little or no care.
Oil.

If you want a Colt to be reliable in harsh conditions, do NOT "build it up."

[Hawkmoon]

#1: If you have a NEW 70 series Colt, it ain't all that new. Any new Colt will be a series 80.
Colt currently lists in their catalog a Series 70 reproduction. It is not a Series 80 pistol. Neither is the WW1 reissue model.

[hairyfingertrigger]

yup. they are relaunching the series 70. how does it shoot? i had the pleasure of using a gold cup series 70 once, nice gun out of the box. guy brought it straight from the armory to the gun club. we fired the first thirty or so rounds taking turns drooling.

[OD*]

they are relaunching the series 70.
Actually, they have been on the market since 2002.

how does it shoot?
Mine shot very well indeed.

[cajunfj40]

After looking at the posts I will do the following:

Send to Colt for the Mod 0 pkg
Replace MSH with S&A checkered arched one with lanyard loop
Bevel mag well
Wilson Combat micarta grips
Refinish in tougher finish
Have frame and slide checked out

[hairyfingertrigger]

Actually, they have been on the market since 2002.


Mine shot very well indeed.
more drool... (sigh) i guess its time to save up! >:>...
hope they dont can the program before im able to get my hands on one. carry a 1991A1 now, slide to frame fit, combat trigger with over travel guide, 2lbs triger pull job, combat hammer, parkerized with rubber pachmayr grips and antique devel 8 rd mags. only use colts. at least as far as the 1911 platform is concerned, its the ferrari of handguns for me. :)

[auto45]

"Why would too loose make the gun less reliable? (And it will.)"

I'd guess the slide is "bouncing" up and down, side to side on the frame causing the bullet to hit the frame ramp in different spots because the slide is picking up the cartridge differently, extracted case hits the ejector differently,
series 80 issues since the height of the "lever" in the frame to the plunger in slide affects timing, etc.

Has to be more no doubt.

Tuner, I miss the questions...the "Socratic" method is quite enjoyable and effective.

Take care.

[dogdollar]

Here is where to get the

Melonite Finish ............NO ONE HAS TO HAVE ..........

http://www.coalcreekarmory.com/finishing.php

Cut and paste to your browser.

Sheez.......... I now know where 1911Tuner is coming from :butthead:

JF.

Sniper,
In my post I was simply trying to make a point about proceeding on a project like this with an established baseline health of any particular pistol and proceeding from there. The fact that this finish was brought up before my post is purely incidental - in no way did I mean to cast asparagus on anyone's good intentions.
So - if an apology is in order, you have mine, but it is your perception of my post, not it's intent, that is the issue. Sorry, brother.
Best regards,
Tim

[Sniper350]

Tim- We are good my friend................. I thought you were upset with me for offering some finish options to the poster. This, I see was not the case.

I truly appreciate you taking the time to explain how you felt. I hope I am here to learn and to try and make some new friends .........

This is a great place to do both ............. so I want badly, not to make too many waves in the water ........

Thanks again,
Your friend,
JF.

[dogdollar]

Thanks, JF -
I guess everyone that is passionate about something gets a little lathered up about it every now and then and maybe runs on too long or says something he shouldn't have, and I felt guilty of it when I read your post - especially the part about Tuner.
Man, if I could take back some of the dumb things I've done in the past couple of years, chief among those things would be a time on here when I was new to the forum and I really mouthed off to Tuner....of course, then, I had no idea how talented the man was - I didn't really know where he fit in the grand scheme of things around here - I didn't know how many hours he spent helping everyone in need of a hand on here, always on his own time and often at the expense of his private life. And most of all, I didn't know him as the consummate southern gentleman that he is - you seldom see a post of his, even after locking horns with someone, that there's not an invite for cup of coffee and a little kitchen-table "smiffin". I know he's going to go his own way, for his own reasons, but he will always be a friend and mentor to me and I can only hope he'll make his way back up front in his own time.

As far as the post goes, it was a real revelation to me, after paying darn near $3k for a pistol that wouldn't run ( and the manufacturer would NOT fix it), that almost EVERY aspect of it was out of the original JMB spec. Chamber was tight and shallow, breech face was narrow, feed ramp was shallow, extractor was too long and clocking in its channel due to a sloppy FP stop fit......it occurred to me that I could have sat there with a credit card and a Brownell's catalogue for days buying the latest and greatest this and that none of it would have made a lick of difference....the gun wasn"t BASELINE healthy, and wouldn't be right to this day if a man with the tools, the knowledge, and the same passion for the platform as most of us here have, hadn't taken his calipers and angle measures and pit gauges and gone back to square one and put me on the right road.

That gun is now my carry gun and my pride and joy - hasn't missed a lick since I got it back from this great gunsmith after paying a more-than-fair price for his time and his superb craftsmanship.

You don't hear a lot of people on here recommending this - but I sure do. I think it's the first thing ANYONE who sets out to build a self-defense weapon needs to do, bar none. But that's just me, and hopefully now you understand why...........

Enjoy your weekend, amigo !!
T.

P.S. - As far as making waves, heck, just jump right on in, the water's fine. I think you should sit down right now and send John a nice eamil outlining the clear superiority of full length guide rods and front cocking serrations, then one to Hunter asking if he's read my new book "Colt - The Poor Man's Les Baer?", then maybe one to Ping Ping asking him why he thinks NHC just can't seem to get that old Wilson Combat mojo going. You'll have tons of friends in no time at all !!!!!
:lm: :lm: :lm:

[twin oaks]

Ahh, well I'm back. My britches were feeling kinda snug. I had to employ the help of a crow bar to get my foot outta my mouth, too.
Appologies for posting incorrect info. Thanks OD for the correction on the repro. And, to Tuner: I think someone already posted the inferred answer to your riddle. To quote you, ". . .more isn't neccesarily gooder."

I should have more succintly stated that a pistol that will see harsh conditions needs some play in it to accomodate the inevitable exposure to grit, grime, dust, moisture, and politicians. In other words all the really nasty stuff. However, just the opposite is also true- too tightly built and these things will adversely affect the pistol.

Still learning . . .

[OD*]

No problem Twin oaks. ;)
Hopefully, we're all still learning.

[John]

I had prepared an answer along the lines of:

- Every how often do you plan to let your gun submerge in snow or mud? Or:
- looseness doesn't mean "open to the weather". And tightness doesn't mean there are no tolerances. Or:
- folks remember the barrel's end is totally open. What best entrance for debris than that?

Etc. etc. etc.

But I decided not to post it.

[twin oaks]

Whew! I'm glad you didn't bring that up John.

[pdoppenheim]

Man, if I could take back some of the dumb things I've done in the past couple of years, ....

There'd still be too many of them out there for me to admit to.