[B]First Build...What Frame and Slide?[/B]

[Mello]

Hello,

I'm going to build a custom M1911 and I'd like some good advice (No bad advice please :( ). I was thinking of getting a Caspain slide and frame already mated or maybe a Springfield Milspec and then going from there. The price difference between the two is not so drastic and I figure I may as well get a bunch of parts with the slide and frame (which the Springfield Milspec will have, of course). So...what say all of the experienced gunsmiths out there?

Any related advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Mello.

[shovelwrench]

You can order the caspian stuff with your choice of sight cuts, serrations,checkering, etc...

It will cost you more to buy all the parts seperate but then you can put in what you want.

Plus I imagine the slide fit will be alot better from caspan than a milspec will be.

[John]

On the other hand, if this is your first 1911, you may want to start with a complete pistol and play with it, until you become familiar with the design and how everything works.

[Mello]

No John,

I'm a proud owner (semi-proud, anyway) of a Kimber GMII. I read some your earlier posts concerning the subject and it is good advice that I have already followed. I just want to start with a good, solid frame and slide. I've heard good things about Caspian and I have also heard good things about Springfield Milspec pistols as a good base for a custom gun. Cylinder and Slide made an excellent gun from a springfield GI (I think it was a GI anyway). You know this because you were the first magazine to review the pistol.

I really liked the C&S custom even though I nitpicked the review a bit (sorry bout' that!). The main advantage I see in buying the Milspec or the GI is the extra parts...and for only a minimal amount of extra money compared to the Caspian. So what do you think?

Mello.

[mbatlle84]

The Springfield Frame & Slides are supposed to be forged steel aren't they? Probably one of the reasons they get used often on custom projects.

I've been looking at sets of forged frames & slides and most are about the same price as an entire Mil-Spec or more.

[John]

Well, if you are going to build a custom, then I see no reason to pay for the extra features of the Mil-Spec compared to a GI. Unless you do not plan to alter these features.

For example, the sights that come with the Mil-Spec are perfectly serviceable. If you are going to keep them, fine, but if you plan to replace them with Novaks or whatever, there is no need to get the Mil-Spec. Get the GI instead. If you do not care for the bevelled magwel of the Mil-spec, because you plan to add a MSH/magwell to the pistol, there is no need to get the Mil-Spec. See what I mean? The price difference can allow you to buy some add-on parts that you will need.

Personally, I find the Mil-Spec to be one of the "best bang for the buck" 1911s. If I was in US, I would get one, take out the hammer and the grip safety, replace them with a Commander grip safety and an Ed Brown hammer and have a perfect 1911 right there (OK, I might replace some more parts, but it's not essential).

[Mello]

Okay...John and others,

I hit the Caspian sight and came up with this:

Caspian carbon reciever/frame and slide, bomar sight cuts, Ed brown grip safety, front strap checkering (stated 20 lpi but I'd like 25 lines per inch.) Flat top slide with serrations and no engravings as of yet...price : $578.00 w/out tax. Seems a little pricey so far and I haven't even added a MSH or internal forged/CNC parts.

I'm thinking the Springfield G.I., as you said John. It's all still up in the air. I don't have to have every detail on the pistol that I want right from the start but it would be wise to have all the machining done considering I do not have those kind of tools. Any other things I am not considering/thinking about/missing that I should be?

Mello.

P.S.,

I will not be getting front slide serrations ( I like the traditional look much better) and I have not definately decided on a flat top serrated look. I did, however, include the machining cost of the flat top serrations in my price (An extra $77.00 from Caspian). There will be plenty of things for me to do without worrying about the major machining issues. Oh yes, I like the straight (vertical, without the slight angled look) serrations on the back of the slide vs the angled serrations. So far, the price from Caspian without tax is $578.00. How much does the Springfield G.I. go for?

One last consideration; Should I go with Carbon Steel or Stainless Steel?

[Dave Berryhill]

...For example, the sights that come with the Mil-Spec are perfectly serviceable. If you are going to keep them, fine, but if you plan to replace them with Novaks or whatever, there is no need to get the Mil-Spec. Get the GI instead. If you do not care for the bevelled magwel of the Mil-spec, because you plan to add a MSH/magwell to the pistol, there is no need to get the Mil-Spec. See what I mean? The price difference can allow you to buy some add-on parts that you will need....

Amen to what John said. The primary differences between the GI and the Mil Spec are the sights, the beveled mag well and the lowered/flared ejection port. If you add up ALL the parts needed to build a 1911 from scratch you'll see what a bargain these pistols are. If you shop around a bit you'll also be able to find one with a fairly tight slide-to-frame fit.

[John]

Well, if you like the traditional look (vertical serrations etc) and if you do not have access to a mill, Caspian is the only choice. The GI would be perfect, but you will need a mill to open up the ejection port (I wouldn't even dream suggesting to do it with a dremel and files), and for other things. Maybe you should consider the Mil-Spec and live with the angled cocking serrations? The top serrations are not really necessary, cosmetic issue more or less. And you do not have to machine the top of the slide flat to do these, with the proper mill, they can be done on the curve.

[Mello]

John and others,

A few more questions,

Is the carbon steel stronger than stainless steel and better overall for a bullseye gun? There are Springfields stamped "U.S.A." and some stamped "Brazil". Are there any differences in quality between the two? I think I'll go for the Milspec because of the flared and lowered ejection port, at least if I decide not to go with the Caspian Frame and Slide. I'll most likely drop the serrated flat top treatment, it just isn't necessary and it is something that could be done way down the road.

What kind of internal parts does Springfield use? I would rather not have any MIM part in my gun if possible. I know that some MIM parts are fine but some are not fine. They have a bad reputation for breaking in the weirdest ways. I'd like to stick with forged CNC parts. Caspian is supposed to make the strongest parts around (According to Ed Masaki and Neil Kravitts over at Bullseye-L).

There is a Springfield Milspec/GI at a gun shop close to me. The frame/slide is stamped Brazil. The shop is asking for $495.00 and it is a slightly used gun in excellent condition, though it is a little loose. Is this a good price or should I pass if I decide to forego the Caspian frame and slide?

Thanks for all of the help guys,

Mello.

[John]

I can't help with prices, I live too far away from .... your streets to know what's the current street price for any pistol. So I can't help with that.

Contemporary stainless steel is not much different than blue steel. In the past galling problems were an issue, but that was more than 20 years ago. I haven't seen a pistol galling if properly lubricated.

Parts I would change on a Springfield:

- extractor (if it has problems).
- hammer/sear/disco (I can't shoot a pistol without a beavertail or at least a Commander grip safety. Since a beavertail requires a round/oval hammer, I would change the whole firing mechanism and be on the safe side. If you do not suffer from hammer bite, you can leave these stock).

Apart from these, I would leave the gun pretty much stock. It has sights I can see, a trigger I can manage (well, it will have with the new parts, even if it doesn't as it comes from the factory) and it fires a load I can handle. That's perfection.

[Mello]

Thanks John,

by the way, The Springfield GI model has the vertical serrations on the back of the slide. The Milspec has the slanted serrations. I'll most likely go with the GI and have the ejection port flared and opened up. I like the vertical serrations a whole lot. May as well get what I want without sacrifices. They are all over the net for very reasonable prices. Thanks for your help and advice...John and everyone else.

Mello.

[gbw]

If you have good hand tools, mainly files, and are comfortable with them, lowering and flaring the port are straightforward operations. Lowering the port is one of the very few areas where a Dremel can safely be used initally if you've some experience with it. Be sure to lay out the lines first so you don't cut too much. You may also want to wait until you're sure the port needs to be opened up - not all of them do.

[niemi24s]

You may also want to wait until you're sure the port needs to be opened up - not all of them do.

Heed this wise advise from GBW, unless you've just "got to have" a lowered port for its looks. If you have a drill press, a 3/8 or 3/4 inch diameter point can also be used to do the lowering with the slide secured on its side in a wooden holder. The holder keeps the left side side of the slide from getting scratched by the grinding residues.

This method may be a little better than the Dremel, but not nearly as good as a mill.

Be sure not to grind into the bore for the extractor that extends beyond the breechface guide block, or you'll have a sharp corner that's unsightly, difficult to dress down, and may weaken the slide unnecessarily. This is where the selection of grinding point diameter comes in - too small of a diameter for the port's aft corner may get into the extractor bore.

Enjoy your project. Regards.

[gbw]

Just a little clarification. Except for the experts, power tools (dremel, drill, mill) will reduce endless filing, but use them only to get near your previously marked outline, and only if you're confident in your ability with them - remember they will also drastically reduce the time it takes to destroy a costly part. If needed, lowering a port is one of the easier projects with a dremel. Finish up with files, then sandpaper. Go slow, don't overdo, good luck.

[Mello]

Thanks gbw,

I am skilled with tools and learn new techniques quickly. I could either scribe or tape the slide just above where it may need to be lowered, then finish it off with files and paper. There are a lot people out there who have no business using moto type tools. It takes patience and frequent measuring to ensure that the right amount of material is being removed. I understand why a few people on this forum are against the use of such tools, but they work great if the proper precautions are taken. I'd like to get the Caspian slide and frame but at this point I just don't have the money. The Springfield is the better overall value and I feel that I'll learn more going with the Springfield.

Thanks again,

Mello.

[gbw]

Good for you. John et al have given you very good advice. Like you, I'm a hobbyist, although no longer a novice - I've built 6 of my own pistols now. But fwiw, it sounds to me like you're taking exactly the right approach and attitude. Good parts and good gunsmithing tools are very expensive (but Brownells is always good for their guarantee), and when the time comes for that Caspian you'll be ready, and you'll get exactly the result you want - Caspian frames / slides are nice, but they can be a real challenge going from scratch. Just ask Lazarus! (or me).

[niemi24s]

FWIW, Mike Watkins, a pistolsmith at Brownells, advised me to lower a port no closer than 0.462 inch to the slide's bottom as that's the dimension on a Colt Gold Cup.

The radius at the port's forward corner doesn't need to be any less than 3/8 inch because this is sufficient clearance for the case mouth (even though most appear cut to a 1/4 inch radius for, I suspect, purely cosmetic reasons).

In addition, when using the drill press to spin the grinding point, I use the slowest speed - about 600 rpm on mine. It makes the work quite slow and tedious, but at least there's little danger of taking off too much. I also set up a guide strip on the drill press table to limit the travel of the holder & slide and to give a nice straight lower edge on the port.

[Mello]

Thanks for the confidence, I need it. I've worked on plenty of single action six shooters (Like Rugers and Colts, Black powder six-shooters, etc.) but the M1911 is a different animal completely and looks to be a lot more interesting and a whole lot of fun. Keep any advice you have coming strong. I love to speak to people with real world experience. Thanks again fellas.

Mello.

[Mello]

Fellas,

This post may seem off topic but it still relates to my custom build using a Springfield GI. I have definite proof that not all of the Springfield Gi's and Milspecs have "Brazil" stamped on the slide/frame. I have pictures from various sellers on the internet and most of the guns are Stamped (Right Side of the Frame) like this:

SPRINGFIELD INC
GENESEO IL USA
WWI 0070

This was directly taken from a Stainless Steal model but the parkerized models are pretty much the same. So why are some Springfield Gi's and Milspecs stamped with BRAZIL and others with the above information? I'm very interested in this difference and would like to know the answer.

Thanks everyone,

Mello.

[John]

All slides and frames come from Brazil, no matter what they say. The forgings are made by Imbel. From then on, some pistols are assembled in Brazil, while some others are assembled in US. The location shouldn't affect the quality of the end product.

[Mello]

Thanks John, just though it was rather odd that Springfield would allow the use of two different roll marks on there receivers. How did you find out this information? I'd like to learn more about this anomaly.

Thanks,

Mello.

[Cue]

all springfield guns state

SPRINGFIELD INC
GENESEO IL USA

They are very tricky with thier markings. Look on the bottom of the frame right in front of the trigger guard. You might see made in brazil acid etched there. I think they acid etched it there because it will easily wear off.

They also mark made in brazil under one of the grip panels. I cant remember which one exactly though. I think this if for all guns assembled in the US.

[Mello]

Sorry...you are mistaken, not all of Sringfield's guns are marked in this way.

There are some Springfield GI and Milspec guns that have the Brazil rollmark right on the receiver where it usually says SPRINGFIELD INC GENESEO IL USA. This is what I am specifically speaking about. I just want to know why they even do this, what is the reason for using one rollmark vs the other? thanks for chimming in on the discussion Cue, any more info you can give is much appreciated.

Mello.

[John]

By being here about three years now and reading the various posts.

[Mello]

Excuse me John?

What do you mean? I'm not sure but I think you may have misinterpreted something I wrote. Please explain your last post to this thread if it isn't a problem.

Thanks,

Mello.

[John]

Thanks John, just though it was rather odd that Springfield would allow the use of two different roll marks on there receivers. How did you find out this information? I'd like to learn more about this anomaly.

This is what you asked me.

And I replied that I've learned this from the members of this site. If you go back in the Springfield's forum, you will find threads talking about this subject.

[irq23]

Rock River has very nice forged frames and nice slides for a very reasonable price. STI also has cast or forged compnents you can buy.

[Mello]

Ah, Thank you for the clarification. Thought I maybe offeneded you and didn't realize exactly how I may have upset you. Thanks for the clarification.

[Mello]

I'll check out their sites and look at the prices/options that are available...Thanks.

Mello.

[John]

Ah, Thank you for the clarification. Thought I maybe offeneded you and didn't realize exactly how I may have upset you. Thanks for the clarification.
You didn't offend me, if you had, you would know. :)

[Mello]

Glad I didn't offend you. I figured because you are frome Greece that maybe every so often you have slight trouble with certain "American" speech qualities. I know that if I chose to learn a second or third language that it wouldn't be exactly easy to keep track of all the different slang and meanings of words. I've heard that English is actually quite a difficult language to learn if it isn't your native language. The Greek language is very interesting to me, considering its widespread use in the ancient world. Not to mention that it is considered a technical language and very precise. The Scriptures were translated predominately to Greek (All of the copies are in Greek, though they have found a few in Hebrew the majority (5,000 manuscripts) are in Greek. Amazing!

Mello.