norinco vs colt

[jim young]

I just got back from a gun store, and the manager was tellling me that norinco was an inferior gun, I told him that many experts have used norinco to build comp guns. what are the opinions on the forum?

[raw52]

Norinco 1911's. great pistols and still at a great value, if you follow the different threads in this Forum, box stock are great to upgrade and are superior depending how much one wants to spend. Mine are box stock and can go bang when needed.

I also have found gun store managers and employees look down on these as many do not have any or little or no knowledge of the manufacturer. Some I'm sure is due to the China thing.

Yes, Wilson an other top builders will use a Norinco as a base gun, that has to say something about the metallurgy and components of these pistols.

Colt 1911's, great pistols, need deeper pockets due to costs, (or have a relative or close friend willing to part with one for a reasonable price).

Would put my Norinco on the firing line with any equal Colt and feel very comfortable.

Rich

[Jim V]

First, did he have any Norinco's on display or did he have only other makes of 1911's? It is easy to "bad mouth" a product you don't have to sell. If he did have both a Norinco and a Colt in the show case, perhaps he was trying to peddle the Colt since he'd, most likely, make a larger profit.

The steel in the Norinco 1911's is much better than it needs to be and the slides are tough. Ask any of the custom shops that used them as base guns for their customs, and they will tell you that machining the slides for dovetails and other work took its toll on machine cutters.

[1911Tuner]

As a recently-professed fan of Norinco 1911s, I have to assume that the purveyor of that bit of information likely has a hidden agenda, or it's the result of one or two bad experiences with the pistols. Any mass-produced item can be flawed, just as easily as it can be flawless.

While I'm one of those who adamantly stands by the ditcum that: "If it ain't a Colt, it's just a copy." I also must give the devil his due. The Norincos are
solid performers that don't have any Investment Cast or MIM issues...and I know of dozens of those pistols that have been used hard and never missed a
beat...just like dozens of Colts have. Also...remember the hundreds of thousands of Remington Rands and Ithacas and US&S pistols that also fall under the blanket of "Just a Copy."

The point is moot. No. I wouldn't class the Norinco "Model of the 1911"
as a particularly nice 1911 clone...nor are they very pretty. Most of them, however, are tough and reliable...with few exceptions. Fewer than almost any other recent production pistol than I can name, including Colt. They are...to paraphrase Kuhnhausen..."Rough and Tumble" serviceable sidearms that you can bet on and that you won't mind carrying into the boondocks or wear on your belt while you shoot the rapids or climb a mountain.

Lately, a small number have come to my attention with headspace and
barrel timing issues and should be checked out before putting them to hard use...but even those function for a good while before the problems become a concern, and can be corrected fairly easily in most cases, if caught early on.

Norincos are junk? Not...

[jim young]

It was one of the big box sporting goods store, and the salesman was one of 15 in the gun dept.
I countered with "take a look at beretta vs taurus", He came back with that the taurus was not near as fine a gun as the beretta.
I mean how do you argue with stupidity of that magnitude?
I told him that I had a beretta 92fs and a taurus pt92 and both were very fine firearms.
I just got the laugh through the nose, condescending bull crap.
You know I have been in sales for many years, and I will tell you, you can never win by tearing down the competition, The only angle to play in this situation is to say "I know that there are some very nice guns in the 1911 style out there for less money, but if you ever will need to sell it, the colt will hold, and even gain in value. where the other may loose value or gain very little."
You can not argue with this and if they still want to go with the less expensive gun, you have lost nothing, and not peed off a customer, and they may come back in the future and buy something else.
To put it in a nut shell, I was in a store full of room temp. I.Q.'s

[robertbank]

It really is a pity you folks in the States can't get the newer Norincos. I intend to get their new 1911 single stack 9MM. Up here they sell for $349Cdn. From what I have been told the new NP29 ( Designation for their 9mm, 1911), is finished much better than their A1's in .45acp that come in here and have the beavertail saftey and Commander hammer. I also see where in Asia they are now getting an enhanced model that is finished off much nicer in the .45acp caliber.

I have had two of my Norincos customized and they are great shooters, very accurate and reliable with every kind of bullet I have loaded. I also agree with 1911Tuner, stock they make great camp guns. I have left an A1 stock for that very purpose. Even with the mil-spec sights the gun is bang on accurate and very reliable.

I suspect there is more to the Norinco ban than just politics. At their price point they are great buys!

[care-less]

Alright Robert! I really don't need to be hearing about single stack 9mm Norinco's and how cheap they are in Canada. Go catch a fish or something and quit trying to ruin my day! :D

[robertbank]

Hee Hee Hee

OK my friend I'll be nice.... but I have to add we haven't had snow up here since mid January, temperatures have been in the mid 40's and 50's, since then and looking like it is only going to get warmer. What a winter! Oh the cold in the mid west. You gys must being seeing signs of spring by know....right!

Haven't chsed a Steelhead all winter, can you believe that! Oh well more for the summer I guess. Send an email and let me know how things are going.

Stay safe

[RJay]

Alright Robert! I really don't need to be hearing about single stack 9mm Norinco's and how cheap they are in Canada. Go catch a fish or something and quit trying to ruin my day! :D
When the Norincos first hit these shores there were quality problems. When trying to set the up the rails you had to be very careful in your use of a spreader because the frame or slide would bend ( more than intended or should) Also Unless you replaced all the internals you could never be able to set up a Match gun. The sears for one thing did not seem to be tempered, very soft. The guns would also shoot loose in a very short period of time. Maybe they have improved.

[robertbank]

Your experiences differ significantly from mine and others. The steel in the Norincos is known to be very hard. I don't know at what point my guns will begin to shoot loose but I suspect that will be more a question for my grand children then I. Wilson used to use the Norincos as base guns to customize. A couple of guys up here have the new 9MM Norincos and the finish is now apparently quite good, not that it made much difference on how the A1's shot in .45acp. Mine are far more accurate than I am a shooter.

[jim young]

I just got tired of waiting for spring, so I took out my norinco and put 14 rounds through it, I shot into a snow bank at appx 50yds, one handed made a group appx 12" I dont think that is so bad with semi wad cutters one hand no rest. 50 yds. if it were a gremlin he would be a hurtin,

[1911Tuner]

Can't speak for all the Norks, but I've called in favors from several dozen owners in my area over the past 18 months or so, and all the sears that I checked tested within Army Ordnance specs on the Rc scale. Granted, neither the Norinco nor the USGI sears are as hard as the aftermarket "Match" sears, but they were never designed to be used for match-grade trigger jobs. The main point that I try to make when these concerns come up is that the Norincos duplicated US Army ordnance specifications for the 1911A1 service pistol...and in that light, they met or exceeded those specs.

To compare a stock Norinco OR USGI pistol to a full custom gun with fine-tuned trigger and match grade lockup is like comparing a Lincoln Town Car to a Ford pickup truck. That they don't measure up to a Wilson or a Bear or a Springfield Pro is neither here nor there. They were never meant to measure up to the fit and finish of that class of pistol. Norincos and Remington Rands and Ithacas and GI Colts, etc...are what they are. If your tastes run toward high-end guns, you likely won't give a Norinco more than a passing glance.
If all you want is a tough, serviceable 1911-pattern pistol that won't hurt your feelings should it get scratched or dinged up, then the Norinco is a very good alternative to entry-level Colts and Springfields...without MIM or investment castings.

Cheers all!

[Jim V]

All I can say about my three Norincos, they feed, fire and eject just fine, any of the three will shoot better than I can hold and I have had a little fun out shooting a few people with their "gussied" up 1911s with all the "I want it because (fill in the name of a big time shooter) has it on his guns" parts installed.

[1911Tuner]

Jim,

Since you're a fan of the Chinaguns...howzabout doin' a little test for me.

If you don't have a set of headspace gauges, use a fired case...resized if possible...to do a quick headspace check for me like this:

Measure the length of the case with a caliper. Use just the slide, barrel and bushing for this. Push the barrel into the slide with the bushing in place, with
the case in the chamber. Use feeler gauges from the underside of the slide to determine the gap between the case rim and the breechface. Add the
length of the case and the feeler gauge that will go between the two surfaces
with light drag and let me know what you get.

Also, Note any flanging of the top front your barrel locking lugs...no matter
how slight. See if you can catch an edge with a fingernail raked across the top of the lugs from back to front..then report what you find along with the first 3 digits of the serial numbers.

Standin' by...

[Brian D.]

Hmm, how'd I miss this thread? Amazing, given that my e-mail address is "rincoman45".

Well Jim Young, after I bought my first Norinco 1911 (just HAD to after Clinton banned their import), decided to find out if it was as durable as I'd heard. The gun is now up over 20k rounds without any parts breaking/wearing out, if that tells you anything..

During the time the Norks were being imported, both Wilson and Clark built tricked-out guns based on them. Not to mention a host of lesser known 'smiths.

[Jim V]

1911Tuner,

Only one of my Norincos has its original barrel. I installed a Clark barrel on N#1 and a USGI chrome lined barrel on N#2 (the parked one). N#3 still has the original barrel, I'll haul it up to my guns smith's Wednesday and have him check it for head space.

[John]

Hmm, how'd I miss this thread? Amazing, given that my e-mail address is "rincoman45".

Well Jim Young, after I bought my first Norinco 1911 (just HAD to after Clinton banned their import), decided to find out if it was as durable as I'd heard. The gun is now up over 20k rounds without any parts breaking/wearing out, if that tells you anything..

During the time the Norks were being imported, both Wilson and Clark built tricked-out guns based on them. Not to mention a host of lesser known 'smiths.
Actually, until some time ago, Bill Wilson would refuse to build you a custom pistol based on anything else but a Colt, Springfield or Norinco.

That should say something about the quality of the metals used in the frame and slide.

Rgds

[Colt 45]

Here is a photo that i took to show some comparison. The machining is definitely rougher, but the function is very nice.

http://img163.exs.cx/img163/8584/1911coltvsrincoslideframe7pz.jpg

[1911Tuner]

1911Tuner,

Only one of my Norincos has its original barrel. I installed a Clark barrel on N#1 and a USGI chrome lined barrel on N#2 (the parked one). N#3 still has the original barrel, I'll haul it up to my guns smith's Wednesday and have him check it for head space.

Jim,

Just to satisfy my morbid curiosity,(and for my growing database)...if your smith has a set of gauges to measure the distance from the breechface to each slide lug thrust face...see if you can find out which of the locking lugs are taking the hit when the gun fires. Look closely also, to see if there's any indication of lug setback and equalization.

Out of all the ones that I've had my grubby mitts on...only two had the
number one lug bearing any of the load...and only about half had more than one lug in horizontal lockup under firing pressure...usually #2, which is better than #3...but sometimes the #3 lug had it all. Since #3 is the least supported of the three...and affords the least vertical lockup. I believe that this accounts in part for the typical long headspace in the Norinco barrels,
and for the excessive headspace that is sometimes noted in guns that have been used a lot.

When only one lug bears thrust load...and that one lug is #2 or #3, the
lugs set back with use until #1 comes into play or it becomes obvious that
the lugs are being reshaped. With lug setback, the barrel moves forward
and away from the breechface...and headspace grows. In these guns that have experienced more than a thousandth or two of lug setback and equalization, the lugs will take on a stepped appearance at the front, with the top portion of the lug(s) sitting farther back than the bottom portion.
I've seen a couple that have had as much as .015 inch of setback. (And one that had .022 inch.) In these, the headspace was so far out of the acceptable range, that I advised the owner not to fir the guns any more until it was corrected.

If the lugs have deep vertical engagement, you may have to use a magnifying glass to see it clearly.

Standin' by...

[don527]

1911tuner...

ttt to see if there were some new updates to your findings.

i also pm'ed you earlier cause i am looking for a nib norc and wondering what to be aware of or look for before putting any rounds thru one.

thanks,
don

[1911Tuner]

Hey Don...Just got your PM.

The flow of Norincos has slowed to a trickle, and I haven't looked at any
more other than the one I bought recently. It was one with a barrel problem, and I retrofitted a used barrel from an old Colt 1991A1 to it. It worked out nicely, and the gun is a decent shooter. It won't win any bullseye matches,
but it will clear a falling plate rack at 25 yards if I do my part.

The only problem with a NIB/unfired Nork is that the problem won't be apparent until it's been fired 500 or so rounds. Look for lug setback at the front...almost always on the 2 and 3 lugs...but usually with only one showing heavy setback. It can be anywhere from .010 inch to .030 inch due to only one lug bearing the recoil forces...and the setback continues as the gun attempts to bring another lug to bear.

As this occurs, headspace opens up because the barrel "moves" farther from the breechface under firing pressure, and if the setback is above about .010
inch, headspace can become dangerously excessive. Since Norks typically have pretty generous headspace to start with, sometimes it can get into
the danger zone even earlier.

Generally, if you can look straight down onto the hood and see a gap between the first lug and its mating face in the slide, you're probably looking at a new barrel pretty early...probably within 2,000 rounds. If you get lucky,
and the two forward lugs equalize early on, the gun is probably good to go for 8-10 thousand. If the first lug is bearing the load, or it equalizes with another lug quickly, the gun will probably be good for 50 or 60 K. Just keep an eye on the lugs. Setback will take on the appearance of a stairstep, with the top half of the lug sitting farther back than the lower part. You may have to look at it under a magnifying glass.

Check the headspace with a GO gauge and feeler gauges. You can use a fired case as an expedient method. Measure the case, and slip feeler gauges between the rim and the breechface with the barrel pushed up into the slide in the battery position. If the total headspace is above .915, you'll probably need a barrel by the time the lugs equalize, as the gun will likely close easily on a NO GO gauge.

Hope this helps...

[cottontoptexan]

On the subject of headspace in 1911 45 pistols is it acceptable to make a no-go guage from a 308 casing cut down with a Lee Case trimmer? I did this years ago and it seemed to work. I was using the data from the Kuhnhausen books as to the dimensions to cut the case down. I am sure a factory made no go would be better but i just gave this one a try. I was just checking some of my pistols and not doing any gunsmithing work. I leave that to guys like tuner. The dimensions i used were taken from the no go guage and this technique was not used by Kuhnhausen but something i thought of.

[1911Tuner]

On the subject of headspace in 1911 45 pistols is it acceptable to make a no-go guage from a 308 casing cut down with a Lee Case trimmer? I did this years ago and it seemed to work. I was using the data from the Kuhnhausen books as to the dimensions to cut the case down. I am sure a factory made no go would be better but i just gave this one a try. I was just checking some of my pistols and not doing any gunsmithing work. I leave that to guys like tuner. The dimensions i used were taken from the no go guage and this technique was not used by Kuhnhausen but something i thought of.

Howdy Texican,

Yep...That'll work. It probably won't be quite as precise or last as long as a
hardened steel gauge, but it'll serve the purpose. You'll have to size it down to fit the chamber like a .45 ACP case, though. If it's too tight to enter the chamber easily, it may give a false reading. A better one would be an old
.45 Winchester magnum case...if you can find one.

[Hunter]

First the person wanting to go round for round Colt vs a Norinco is way out of line. Colt has been making 1911 since well before 1911 and who cares when a Chinese company started making them. When it comes to quality and relabilty Colt is the way to go. Norinco are inferior that is no secret and why buy something that needs work out the box(Norinco) or a 1911 that will shoot very well out the box(Colt).I have spent some time around Norinco firearms(not just 1911s) and they are all inferior to the original. The gun dealer wanting to sell you a Colt over a Norinco was being truthful with you.

[Brian D.]

Well Hunter, at least you are consistent in your Norinco bashing, in thread after thread after thread. :rolleyes:

If you look at some of my posts here (and on other gun boards too) you'll see one of my Norincos is up at the 20,000 round mark now, just like one of your Colts. And it is pretty much stock-from-the-box, other than upgrading the sights and sticking some 3M stairtread tape on the front strap, along with spring changes and other normal maintenence.

Please refrain from making blanket statements about Norinco quality, at least without the occasional proviso that it's just your opinion. Too many folks on these boards (robertbank is one of several, others are easy to look up) have had positive experiences with the Nork 1911s to categorize them all as "junk".

For further proof of this, consider that when 'Rincos were being imported, Wilson and Clark, along with many lesser-known smiths, would accept them for customization.

This brings me to one last item: Import of these 1911s has been banned since 1996, by executive order of one President William J. Clinton. Many of us "Yanks" who now own the Norincos purchased them AFTER that EO, out of curiousity--and perhaps a desire to thumb our noses at Mr. Clinton. At any rate, by that time the Chinese had long since gotten their money from those Norks, and they were just unappreciated new, or low-miles secondhand pistols languishing at a show or store.

Believe it or not Hunter, I own Colts too, and have mostly had good experiences with them. But the folks in Hartford have definitely made some clunkers, sometimes bunches of 'em in the same year, depending on their labor situation, who was managing the company, etc.

Of course this is just my opinion, (See, that's easy to type in occasionally!), enjoy yourself here!

Brian

[robertbank]

With respect Sir, you might tie but you would not win your bet. That I can assure you.

There are a number of companies making quality 1911's today. Soem are Amreican, others come from Canada, the Philipines, Brazil etc.