What exactly is "MKIV"..and "Delta Elite"? thanks

[elijdub]

Evening, In an effort to continue my crash-course in understanding what is quickly becoming my newfound obsession, i am trying to become acquainted with the various models offered by Colt over the years. Now this is somewhat difficult: they have been making guns forever for starters!; there seem to be semi-serieses (with specific components) within the big 3 (if you will); and there are the repro's, limited runs, and a billion custom-makers who made Colt's on a large enough scale to almost constitute a "run" (gunsite CCO for example)!
Question 1: title question: :confused: We are lucky to have a member as knowledgable as OD on the forum who, upon my asking for some clarification, posted an essay by Dana Kamm in which he briefly mentioned the MKIV. This is the main subject of my current misunderstanding. At what exact point did Colt begin making the model that was labeled as such, and at what point did it cease? I don't seem to see it on the current 1991A1's, which leads me to believe that at some point within the series 80 run 'til present they omitted this labeling. Does this mean that they also changed the mechanics or aesthetics of the gun? How 'bout value? If i'm correct in my understanding then there would be some inherent value to an "out-of-production" Colt, right?
I'm hoping for my own sake that i'm right...and Colt doesn't still make this gun, in which case i wont feel like a fool for posting this thread at all.
While we're on the topic of Models/Series...
Quesiton 2: Delta elite: :confused:
What is it? when was it produced, and for how long? I saw one on the "post your pics" thread...and it's AWESOME looking! How hard are they to find? Are they steel? Are they blue, parkerized, or stainless?
I know this is alot to ask for. Little bits of info at a time would be greatly appreciated! :D
Thanks all,
Eli :geek:

[Joni Lynn]

The Delta is a 10mm. They were made in Gov't style and Gold Cup style. The Delta Elite would be the Gov't. Availability was blued or stainless.

[dakota1911]

Look for books by Charles W Clawson to solve the MKI, II, III, IV issue. Searching this site my also give you the answer.

[elijdub]

I think you're right. i need some books on the history of Colt. Any suggestions? charles clawson?
thanks

[RickB]

Colt started stamping "Mk. IV" on the Government Model and Gold Cup circa 1973. They stopped doing it circa 1999. The guns made from ~1973 to ~1983 were Series 70, and the later ones were Series 80. Colt never throws anything away, and "introduction" dates often vary from actual production dates, and there will often be overlap between the introduction of a new model and the discontinuance of the one it replaced. The Mk. IV/Series 70 model has been recently reintroduced (some prefer "reproduced"), so if you want a Mk. IV, they are still available. Lots of people feel that the the Mk. IV/Series 80 days were Colt's darkest, and that the quality was sub-par.
The Delta Elite, in its varous guises (Delta Elite, Delta Gold Cup, Elite Ten, etc., etc.) was made in polished blue, matte blue, stainless, mirror-polished stainless, blue-over-stainless two-tone, and with gold inlay on the First Edition model. It was "introduced" (announced) in 1986, and was in production for about ten years.

[elijdub]

RickB, thankyou very much for the reply. That clears up much of what i wanted to know. I really like the Delta elite. It might have to go on my list!
So, is the "series 70 repro" listed on Coltsmfg site the SAME as the MKIV reintroduction you mentioned? In other words, the gun people have been refering to as the series 70 repro IS in fact identical to the original MKIV?
Thanks again

[RickB]

As strange as it may seem, the salient feature that separated Series 70s from what went before - the collet barrel bushing - is not present on the current-production (repro, reintro, what have you) guns. What the new Series 70 guns have, or lack, as their main selling point, is the Series 80 firing pin block. Some people don't trust the trigger-operated firing pin block that was introduced with the S80, and Colt is addressing that by creating some limited production models that don't have the S80 system in place. If you want a REAL Series 70, you can find them on the auction sites at prices that are similar to the new ones.

[cliff731]

Eli, this is what is rollstamped on the slide of a Series 70 "reissue"... or "reproduction" as it is also called...

Left Side

COLT'S MK IV/SERIES 70
GOVERMENT MODEL (Prancing Pony)
.45 AUTOMATIC CALIBER


Right Side

COLT'S GOVERNMENT MODEL

As seen on the one in the bottom of this photo...

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w266/pentaxuser01/Colt70_SAMSSS.jpg


And here's another "Government Mk. IV Model" you won't see too often... not quite a 1911A1... but a Series 80... and a .380 caliber... made in 1994...

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w266/pentaxuser01/COLTGOV380LS1-1.jpg

[elijdub]

RickB, Thanks for the addtional info. I knew the FPB was missing, but WOULD have expected the "collet" to be on the repro70. Interesting...

Cliff, Those are some real beauties you've got on your hands. And thanks for the pics.....the "visual" helps alot.

[OD*]

The Series 70 repros are also missing the "Accurizor" barrel in addition to the collet bushing. The original "Series '70" improvements were bushing and barrel.

[John]

So there were Series 70 pistols with the Mark IV designation? I thought this designation started with Series 80 pistols, am I wrong?

[OD*]

Correct, the MKIV designation started with the Series '70 and carried through the Series 80s.

[elijdub]

The Series 70 repros are also missing the "Accurizor" barrel in addition to the collet bushing. The original "Series '70" improvements were bushing and barrel.

OD, Can you elaborate on the "accurizor" barrel, please? Would you call it a "loss" to say that they are not on the repro's?
Thanks

[elijdub]

The Delta Elite, in its varous guises (Delta Elite, Delta Gold Cup, Elite Ten, etc., etc.) was made in polished blue, matte blue, stainless, mirror-polished stainless, blue-over-stainless two-tone, and with gold inlay on the First Edition model. It was "introduced" (announced) in 1986, and was in production for about ten years.

RickB, Do you know why they stopped making the Delta? ...and are they hard to find? Can you speak to their quality/desirability?
Thanks, Eli

[OD*]

OD, Can you elaborate on the "accurizor" barrel, please? Would you call it a "loss" to say that they are not on the repro's?
Thanks
The "accurizor" barrel had a slight flair or "bell" at the muzzle in conjunction with the collet bushing for a tight fit.
No sir, I don't think it's not being on the '70 repros is a loss. ;)

[Joni Lynn]

In comparing my new Colt 70 series to the older one I came to the conclusion that the new one may be a better gun in all ways. I know mine is more accurate.

[cliff731]

In comparing my new Colt 70 series to the older one I came to the conclusion that the new one may be a better gun in all ways. I know mine is more accurate.

Joni Lynn, I love it when you say things like that!!!... http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

(...since my Colt Series 70 is one of those "new" ones and not one of the "older" ones.) :D

[Joni Lynn]

I don't say that without having had experience with both. The new model has a better slide to frame fit, the barrel is acually fit better as is the bushing. There's no play in the barrel at the rear. My original series 70 guns ALL had play at the rear and loose bushing to slide fit. That however doesn't mean that I'll sell any of them or like them less. After all, a Colt is always a Colt!

[RickB]

RickB, Do you know why they stopped making the Delta? ...and are they hard to find? Can you speak to their quality/desirability?
Thanks, Eli

When the .40 Short & Weak cartridge was introduced, on the heels of the FBI downloading the 10 so it wouldn't disturb the delicate new agents they were hiring, I think there was a sense that the 10 didn't do anything the .40 didn't do, and you could have the former only in a big, low-capacity pistol. That killed most of the large-frame 10mm guns on the market, including the Delta Elite. There remained a small, but enthusiastic fan base, and that's why used Delta Elites are hot sellers. A mint gun, with box and papers, will easily top $1000, and I've seen nice, but not exceptional examples going for that much. They are not hard to find, but good deals are. The Delta Elite suffered from the uneven quality of all Colts made in the 1980s-90s, but there were good ones. I have a fairly early, blued DE, and it is a very nice gun. Check the auction sites and the inflated reserves and starting bids, and you'll see how desireable they are.

[Lazarus]

Since we are on the subject of MK IV models I'd like to throw in my 2 cents worth. Recently, I purchased an untouched MK IV (blued) from a collector. Serial numbers indicate a production date of 1980. The gun looks outstanding on the outside. The back of the slide, for example, shows ejector, extractor and rails all fitting perfectly. This model must be one of the 'accurizers' because there is a noticeable flare in the barrel toward the front. Not being a collet bushing fan, I installed an nice EGW wide flange bushing and plug and gave the gun some range time. Worked fine, but very rough.

Looking at the internals reveals why I have read reports poor quality workmanship on some of these models. This gun is by far the roughest and ugliest from a machining standpoint of any of my Colts. They did manage to contain the fun to the inside of the gun, however. Inside slide bore looks like it was scraped out by hand using a large file. Sharp corners all over the place. The finish on the inside of the slide would compare well with the marks that 30-grit sandpaper leaves on soft pine wood.

I had to laugh when I saw the sear nose - the worst looking sear I've ever seen. It was "fit" with a single swipe of a mill file. Hammer was not much better. But on the other hand, everything does fit and function. And rather well, now that I've spent countless hours cleaning up the mess and giving it some TLC.

So, I probably won't be tempted by any more Mk IV models from this era, but I'm glad to have this one, as it is shaping up to be a reliable shooter.

-Lazarus

[elijdub]

RickB, Thanks for the ongoing info on the Delta...this is the very reason why i keep coming back to the forum! A virtual treasure-trove of info!

Lazarus, I for one appreciate your 2cents. I've been hearing alot about the "dark-days" of the 80's and early 90's...and posts like yours have helped me to assess where the quality lies.
Eli