USGI 1911A1 method of Carry in the Military

[Chesster]

For some of you old timers, How did the 1911A1 get carried in your experience or observation in the military. My brother and several other from the 1960s told me they carried 6 in the mag, hammer down on an empty chamber. I noticed a gate guard at a base in the early 1980s carried one in the police holster, cocked and locked, with no magazine. (It seems they had empty mags before, until a GI went to town, bought a box of ammo, loaded his empty mag, and accidently shot a window out of the guard house, result: guards could not possess mags.) An MP I know in the early 1970s had his 1911 taken away from him and he was shot 5 times with his own gun. He survived but told me later he was glad he only had 5 rounds in the mag.

[John]

The standard military carrying condition is magazine full, chamber empty, hammer down. Depending on the particular unit and general conditions, those who carry may had orders to keep the magazine off the pistol or not.

[Hawkmoon]

The standard military carrying condition is magazine full, chamber empty, hammer down. Depending on the particular unit and general conditions, those who carry may had orders to keep the magazine off the pistol or not.
The above is correct, except when hostile action is "imminent," at which time the mode of carry reverts to what we now call Condition 1: loaded, cocked, and locked.

The protocol may have been different on Navy vessels - I think Tom can shed some light on that.

[MLee]

The above is correct, except when hostile action is "imminent," at which time the mode of carry reverts to what we now call Condition 1: loaded, cocked, and locked....

The condition for carry in CONUS was determined mainly by either the post commander, or the provost marshall and varied widely. Condition 3 was predominant for MPs, but most guard posts were without magazine in weapon. This resulted in a number of guards being jumped, beaten and their weapons stolen. For a time, guard posts were manned by senior NCOs with loaded weapons in response to the above problem.

Mike

[Hawkmoon]

The mindset of "defending" a military installation with an unloaded weapon has always baffled me.

"Excuse me, Sir, you may not enter this base. Uh, Sir, did you hear me? You may not enter ... SIR! Please stop, Sir or I will be forced to speak harshly at you. Sir? uh, SIR! Uh, oh, ratz ..."

[gottripletsNC]

MP's most of the time have to have an order to use their weapons, I'm sure there are circumstances when that is overruled but one of the guys from our SO said they had to go on post one day, and he was baffled that the MP's told him that they had to have orders before they could use their weapons. Unlike civilian peace keepers..

[Chesster]

The mere presence of a handgun is often a deterent, but, I think you loose that when everyone can see it doesn't even have a magazine in it.

[bill may]

I just got through working the Kentucky Oaks (110,000 present) and the Kentucky Derby (150,000 present). Each year, the Ky. National Guard and Reserves supplement law enforcement. I, too, and bafflled when I see a uniform MP with a Beretta 9mm and no magazine. What good are they and how can they help when I am in trouble? I guess their training is so poor and their actual firing of the weapon so infrequent, the leaders (in their infinite wisdom) deem no magazine a good thing. Like you said, "Stop, or I will be forced to speak harshly to you!"

[littledoc]

In CONUS, the quarterdeck watch had an empty piece with 2 mags of 5 rounds each. During Security alert drills the POOW would position himself at the head of the brow with pistol in hand and a mag in the off hand.

I guess the hope was that the Chief could repel all boarders with his spyglass long enough to lock and load. :D

If it were for real, things happened differently. ;)

I never stood an armed watch with the Marines in CONUS, so I really can't recollect how the Marines did it. When out of the US it depended on where we were and what we were doing.

[Hawkmoon]

During Security alert drills the POW would position himself at the head of the brow with pistol in hand and a mag in the off hand.
Translation, please? I was Army, and I don't believe I ever encountered the acronym POW. If I did, I sure don't remember it. What does it signify?

[littledoc]

Translation, please? I was Army, and I don't believe I ever encountered the acronym POW. If I did, I sure don't remember it. What does it signify?
It's okay, I stupided it and left out an O, I fixed it. It should have been POOW :o

It means Petty Officer of the Watch. We usually had a 1st class/ Chief, (E6/E7), a third or second class petty officer (E4/E5) and a bluejacket (E3 or below). We usually wore our dress uniform. The chief carried a brass spyglass, -more to signify the office than anything- the PO had a white belt with a mag pouch and holster, sometimes leggings, depending on who may be expected, and the youngster was kept around to be the runner for us. It wasn't as bad as it sounds. All we had to do was sound the alarm and we would have had about 150 sailors with all kinds of weapons ranging from marlin spikes to M-14s swarming all over the place, looking to "get some."

Some foreign ports got a little hairy.

[MLee]

I just got through working the Kentucky Oaks (110,000 present) and the Kentucky Derby (150,000 present). Each year, the Ky. National Guard and Reserves supplement law enforcement. I, too, and bafflled when I see a uniform MP with a Beretta 9mm and no magazine. What good are they and how can they help when I am in trouble? I guess their training is so poor and their actual firing of the weapon so infrequent, the leaders (in their infinite wisdom) deem no magazine a good thing. Like you said, "Stop, or I will be forced to speak harshly to you!"

It's a lot political and CYA. The National Guard is still reeling from Kent State and State Adjutant Generals don't want any of their soldiers shooting civilians. Most reserve and national guard MPs are civilian LEOs, but the ROE are more restrictive for military personnel. "What good are they and how can they help when I am in trouble?", they feel the same way.

Mike

[gfavaron]

Mike put his finger on it guys. For better or worse, the American culture has a strong bias against being policed by it's own military (or anyone else's). Consequently, federal law (the Posse Comitatus Act) and general usage powerfully discourages military commanders from getting involved in law enforcement or even ASSISTING law enforcement. In our society, that is the function of civilian officers.

As a result, REGULAR FEDERAL troops are rarely trained or equipped for crowd control and/or civilian enforcement duties - they are trained and equipped to blow things up and kill people. It is a rather different function and mindset from that of a street cop, and the skills are not readily transferable.

In my (admittedly biased) opinion it is as absurd to expect young soldiers, airmen or sailors to patrol football games or horse races as it would be to expect a gaggle of street cops to man a howitzer, Abrams tank, or missile cruiser.

No disrespect intended.

[Thom m]

In CONUS, the quarterdeck watch had an empty piece with 2 mags of 5 rounds each. During Security alert drills the POOW would position himself at the head of the brow with pistol in hand and a mag in the off hand.

I guess the hope was that the Chief could repel all boarders with his spyglass long enough to lock and load. :D

If it were for real, things happened differently. ;)

I never stood an armed watch with the Marines in CONUS, so I really can't recollect how the Marines did it. When out of the US it depended on where we were and what we were doing.
When I was in the Marines in the States we mostly carried an empty rifle, or a night stick. I was a prison chaser for awhile, we took prisoners out on working parties armed with a brass whistle and a nightstick, the prisoners carried brush hooks.

[Pcs]

As an active-duty Army MP in the late '80s and early '90s, I was stationed in CONUS and OCONUS and issued the M1911A1. SOP at each duty station was that the sidearm be carried with no magazine inserted into the weapon. One magazine with 5 rounds was issued when going on shift and it was carried in the mag pouch on the belt. I felt rather silly going armed thus when partnered with a Carabinieri armed with a Beretta M92 and M12 SMG!

[Soft Walker]

An interesting old manuals instructions:

FM 23-35
WAR DEPARTMENT
BASIC FIELD MANUAL
AUTOMATIC PISTOL
CALIBER .45
M1911 AND M1911A1

Page 18

l. In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not fore-
seen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in
the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use
of the pistol is probable, It should be carried loaded and
locked in the holster or hand. In campaign, extra maga-
zines should be carried fully loaded.
m. When the pistol is carried In the holster loaded,
cocked, and locked the butt should be rotated away from
the body when drawing the pistol In order to avoid displacing
the safety lock.

[Chesster]

Thanks for all the good info.

[ducati]

When I was in the Corps, as a gate sentry and Corporal of the Guard we carried a holstered 1911 with a 7 round mag inserted, and 2 spare mags..empty chamber. 84-88.

[ltdave]

my dad served in the Navy 51-55 and he stood a lot of watches. he said he always had a round chambered and locked...

i never carried a 1911 but i did some LE/SP duty in the Air Force and carried an M15 loaded up and an M9 with 15 in the mag, one in the chamber and decocked. yep, we had a loose 'barney bullet' (as in barney fife from Andy Griffith show with his ONE bullet in his pocket)...

david

[safari]

Here in New Orleans the Guard is providing assistance to the Police the Guard has shot at least 2 people so far.

Police: National Guardsman Shot Driver Waving Cell Phone (http://www.wdsu.com/news/10037868/detail.html)

Family Of Man Shot, Killed By Guardsman Prepare Vigil (http://www.wdsu.com/news/11206508/detail.html)

I thank the guard for their help and putting their life on the line to protect the good citizens of New Orleans.

Jim

[spy]

An interesting old manuals instructions:
...
...the butt should be rotated away from
the body when drawing the pistol ...

That part I didn't understand.