Model Questions...1991, etc.?

[elijdub]

Howdy folks. I'm a Colt newbie (relatively speaking) and have some quesions about some of the various models. My intention is to buy a "shooter" after recently purchasing a WWI repro which i'm reluctant to shoot. Your input is greatly appreciated as i like to do my "homework" prior to purchase.
Here goes:
1) What is the 1991 (vs. 91A1..?)? Is there some significance to this year? Are they more valuable?
2) What is the significance of the original roll-marks (ORM) vs. new roll marks (NRM), and does this only relate to the gun in quesiton 1)?
3) How do these compare to the newer 1911's by Colt?
:confused:
Thanks,
Eli

[Hunter]

The 1991A1 was offered if matt blue and stainless. I believe some of the later 1991A1 were parkerized.
The 1991 (the current model) is offered in stainless as well as blued. The 1991A1 was produced first and now the 1991 is the current offering.
The ORM (original rollmarks) were the large rollmarked 1991A1 while the 1991 NRM (new roll marks) have the traditional small rollmarks.
I believe they both are excellent pistols.

[OD*]

1) What is the 1991 (vs. 91A1..?)? Is there some significance to this year? Are they more valuable?
No to both, 1991 was the year they were announced, IIRC they hit the streets in 1992.

2) What is the significance of the original roll-marks (ORM) vs. new roll marks (NRM), and does this only relate to the gun in question 1)?
ORMs will only be rollmarked M1991A1, that is the model name, NRMs are rollmarked Government Model, two different pistols that unfortunately have the same model number. As for finishes, Hunter is correct except for the parkerized pistols, they were first and not later models ('92-'94). The rollmarks and model names were changed around 2002.

3) How do these compare to the newer 1911's by Colt?
Many feel the early 1991A1s were some of the better built Colt 1991s, myself included.

Model number 01991, model name M1991A1 (ORM)
http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/gsp.jpg

Model number 01991, model name Government Model (NRM)
http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/nrm.jpg

[Hunter]

The parkerized finish was first? Thanks Dan I thought it was the other way around.

[OD*]

That is what Kathy told me. ;)

[elijdub]

Thanks guys. Just out of curiosity, and not to compare the two, but with your collective knowledge of Kimbers; is this the equivalent between the series I (or pre-series II's) and the series II's? ...some people (myself included) feel that way about the Kimber; there was more quality control and subsequently more attention payed to each pistol in the original series. I DO know that comparing the two is like apples and oranges! ...just the series issue and it's relation to quality..?
thanks

[OD*]

is this the equivalent between the series I (or pre-series II's) and the series II's?
Personally, I don't think so.

My 1991 Government Model is not as nicely built as my M1991A1s, but a friend of mine has three 1991 Government Models and they are very very nicely built pistols.

[Hawkmoon]

1991 is not a "model," it's a series designation. The M1991A1 series (now shortened simply to 1991) was intended by Colt to be a lower priced series of pistols than the Mark IV series, which I guess some people thought were getting expensive enough to have cut off part of Colt's market. As noted, the original M1991A1 pistols were finished with some sort of black Parkerized finish. The new 1991 pistols are blued, and quite nicely, but the flats are not polished to the same mirror-like reflectiveness found on other Colt pistols. They all use the same forged slides and frames as other Colt pistols, but they saved money by not finishing as nicely as the Mark IVs, and by using a few less expensive pieces. The MSHs are nylon rather than steel, and the trigger pads on the original M1991A1s were plastic.

Currently, the 1991 is available in both Combat Commander and Government sizes, in stainless or blued for both models. The original M1991A1 also offered an Officers size model, which in the M1991A1 series was called a "Compact."

[OD*]

I have to respectfully disagree Hawk. M1991A1 is a model name as is the Government Model. 1991 is a series (like Series 80).

http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/1991.asp

[Hawkmoon]

I have to respectfully disagree Hawk. M1991A1 is a model name as is the Government Model. 1991 is a series (like Series 80).

http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/1991.asp
Nope. I've been wrong before and will be wrong again, but in this case I am sitting here with my early M1991A1 Compact on the desk beside the keyboard. I don't have a photo of the left side of the slide, but it's roll marked exactly the same as your M1991A1: "COLT M1991A1™" The right side of the slide is roll marked, in much smaller type, "COMPACT MODEL" directly under the ejection port.

Hunter may have a picture of his.

[OD*]

Yes sir, I currently have two, if you look on the right side of the pistol you will find Series 80 rollmarked under the ejection port. Colt didn't refer to the model M1991A1 as a Series 1991. The boxes are clearly marked model number O1991 (Z, LCM etc.) and to the right they have the model name, M1991A1, Custom M1991A1, Government Model, etc.

[Hawkmoon]

Nowhere on the right side of my M1991A1 Compact does it say Series 80. The left side of the slide is roll marked identically to your M1991A1 Government, with no other markings on the left side of frame or slide. The only roll mark in the right side of the slide is as I posted above: "COMPACT MODEL" in very small type, directly beneath the ejection port. The right side of the frame has the usual COLT'S PT F A MFG CO, HARTFORD, CONN. U.S.A. in very small letters, tight up under the bottom of the slide, and the serial number on line with and just behind the slide stop pin.

Here's the right side
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/AguilaBlanca/100-0023_IMG.jpg

[Hawkmoon]

Reference to Colt's web site might be of use here. Methinks we are confusing model designations and series designations. In the current line, there are four models within the 1991 series. The model O1991 is one of those four models, but so are the O1091 (stainless Government), the O4691 (blue Commander), and the O4091U (stainless Commander). They are all listed on the "1991" page of Colt's web site: http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/1991.asp

To further get us back to trying to answer the question that opened this thread, the "old roll mark" refers to the M1991A1 series, with the large (and, most people feel, ugly) "billboard" roll mark. "New roll mark" refers to current 1991 series offerings. Either way, they are what would be considered Colt's "entry level" pistols, of lower cost than a Mark IV of similar vintage and condition.

[OD*]

OK, here is how it went down. ;)

First, Colt dropped ALL of the other Model O line with the introduction Enhanced Models, you could not buy a standard Model O pistol because they did not make anything for nearly a year other than the Enhanced line, I remember this quite clearly also because I attend the 1989 S.H.O.T. show when Colt announced it. I also know why I stopped buying Colt's in 89/90 because I didn't care for the Enhanced Models. Colt came to their senses and introduced the Model M1991A1 for those who preferred the standard Model O pistols.


Second, when Colt brought out the model M1991A1, it was promoted by Colt as the MODEL M1991A1 to distinguish it from the Enhanced Models, there were no Commander, nor Officers size pistols in the model M1991A1 line when introduced, I remember because I was selling guns at the time.


Methinks we are confusing model designations and series designations. In the current line, there are four models within the 1991 series.
You maybe right, the original M1991A1 was in fact the Model M1991A1 - Series 80. The Commander and Officers sized pistol were different versions of that model. Colt only started referring to the model number 01991 pistols as the "1991 series" when they changed the rollmarkings.

[elijdub]

To further get us back to trying to answer the question that opened this thread, the "old roll mark" refers to the M1991A1 series, with the large (and, most people feel, ugly) "billboard" roll mark. "New roll mark" refers to current 1991 series offerings. Either way, they are what would be considered Colt's "entry level" pistols, of lower cost than a Mark IV of similar vintage and condition.

This is what i'm trying to understand, and now do...quality; entry vs. non-entry. Thanks for the info.
...and needless to say, the remainder of the posts on the history of the m1911A1 are very informative.
Unfortunatley Colt does not list prices of their guns online, as they don't sell there, the result of which is it takes a keen eye to discern where the quality lies, component features, etc. Ofcourse, i'm just splitting hairs here; what Colt isn't of a high quality! I want one of each! I certainly didn't mean to imply anything to the contrary.
Thanks

[OD*]

quality; entry vs. non-entry
Basically Eli, there's little difference in them.
They are all Series 80s, the main difference is finish and rollmarkings. You may pay a little more for a MKIV, but it would be do to condition and finish, Colt did not produce the M1991A1 model and the MKIV pistols at the same time.

[elijdub]

Got it. Thanks. Now i need to go out armed with this knowledge and buy myself a Commander!!!

[Hawkmoon]

Rio Vista Slim owns and has posted pictures of his NRM 1991 Combat Commander. It's a thing of beauty, "entry-level" or not. Ask him and I'm sure he'll tell you.

[OD*]

It's a thing of beauty,
Indeed it is, or should I say they?
Doesn't Slim have one of each, blue and STS?

[Rio Vista Slim]

Indeed it is, or should I say they?
Doesn't Slim have one of each, blue and STS?
Yes Sir! :)
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/IMG_1388.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/IMG_0821.jpg

Top: Colt Model 04091U
Bottom: Colt Model 04691

[OD*]

Beautiful, Slim! http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

Thank you.

[Rio Vista Slim]

Beautiful, Slim! http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

Thank you.
Thank you, Dan. :D

Eli,
There are subtle differences between the two models pictured. The blue Model 04691 more closely follows the lines of the pre-Series 80 Commanders, most notably the round Commander hammer and standard grip safety.
The Model 04091U utilizes the more recent hammer with the oval cut-out, a ducktail-type grip safety, finger relief cut under the trigger guard, and the beveled areas on the slide (most visible on the muzzle end of the stainless gun).

[OD*]

Exactly, Slim. The Enhanced frame on the STS vs the standard frame on the blued pistol.

[elijdub]

Thank you, Dan. :D

Eli,
There are subtle differences between the two models pictured. The blue Model 04691 more closely follows the lines of the pre-Series 80 Commanders, most notably the round Commander hammer and standard grip safety.
The Model 04091U utilizes the more recent hammer with the oval cut-out, a ducktail-type grip safety, finger relief cut under the trigger guard, and the beveled areas on the slide (most visible on the muzzle end of the stainless gun).

Evening gents, First off i'd like to say that i in no way meant to say anything disparaging about an "entry level" firearm. As a matter of fact, this leads me to my next point; i have absolutely no intention at present of owning anything other than what i have been refering to as such. The 04691 is an incredible specimen, most likely to be my next Colt! I love the "old" lines, despite the enhanced frame (clarification requested please?) of the "U". I love the original looking hammer. I am fast becoming obsessed with the Commander, second only to the likes of El Commandante!
I'm sure the XSE, Combat elite, Gold and others are very, very fine guns no doubt, but i'm a bread and butter guy prone to shooting forged steel frames produced by reputalbe companies. Please excuse my learning curve. In my zeal to understand all that Colt has to offer i may have implied something i did not mean.
Rio vista slim, just out of curiosity...do you have a preference between the two? I'm a sucker for blue with the old lines :p
Thanks,
Eli

[Rio Vista Slim]

Eli,
It just so happens that of the five Colts I currently own, the blue Model 04691 is my personal favorite. I shoot it quite a bit, but carry it seldom. Since Texas summers usually last from "March until Thanksgiving", I carry the stainless steel 04091U or the XSE LW Commander.

[elijdub]

Steve, I had a feeling you might say that! (the blue being your fav.) I live in ABQ, just north of y'all, and we have similar 3-season-summers (hot) so i've been using a Kimber PRO CDP for carry. I love the Kimber and will always own it (and maybe others), but i've recently been inducted into the Colt "hall 'o obsession" with my purchase of a WWI repro (which i thought i'd better get my hands on while they're still under 1000). I've said this earlier i think, but i'd like a "shooter", as i just can't get up the courage to shoot that beauty of a repro! I think i'm set on the 04691. That is the exact gun i'm after: Commander, blue, steel, period.
Curious...does the 04091U have an alloy frame (you mentioned it's your choice for carry)? If no and it's all steel, why do you prefer it for carry over the blue?

[Hersh]

Here's an ORM Commander dressed up a bit.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/Hershel_Van/Bob-3.jpg

[elijdub]

Here's an ORM Commander dressed up a bit.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/Hershel_Van/Bob-3.jpg

NICE!!
Man i love 'em!
Let's see...: new trigger; new hammer; new beavertail..? I'm testing my newly-developed Colt identification techniques :D

[cliff731]

...The 04691 is an incredible specimen, most likely to be my next Colt! I love the "old" lines... I love the original looking hammer... I'm a sucker for blue with the old lines :p
Thanks,
Eli

Eli, You and I are of like minded thought and admiration here... The all steel blued Commander is on my Colt list... if this beautiful Colt were a she, a woman, I would be obsessed with marrying her. :D

[Rio Vista Slim]

Curious...does the 04091U have an alloy frame (you mentioned it's your choice for carry)? If no and it's all steel, why do you prefer it for carry over the blue?
The 04091U is an all stainless steel gun. The XSE has the lightweight aluminum alloy frame.
I guess my two blue pistols (MkIV/Series 70 and 04691) don't get carried as much because I don't mind holster wear on the stainless pistols. The blued ones are my pride and joy, and it's just a stupid personal thing with me. :D

[elijdub]

Cliff, you hit "the primer with the hammer" on that one!

Steve, not stupid at all IMHO! I still cringe each and every night when i take my (dare i say on this forum) Kimber PRO CDP out of it's daily Galco attire to put it on it's night-time resting place: my nightstand. Every time i inspect the slide's exterior for "leather stripes"..and if visible, go get a solvent soaked rag, etc. Maybe i'm "over-the-top", but i don't mind...and i like to take REALLY good care of my firearms!
Eli

[Hersh]

NICE!!
Man i love 'em!
Let's see...: new trigger; new hammer; new beavertail..? I'm testing my newly-developed Colt identification techniques :D

Thanks!

Actually this gun came with the beavertail and elongated hammer. Some articles refer to this as a transitional model since the changes were implemented over time rather than all at once. After market parts are the stocks, trigger, thumb safety, EGW bushing and CMC extended mag catch.

[elijdub]

Thanks!

Actually this gun came with the beavertail and elongated hammer. Some articles refer to this as a transitional model since the changes were implemented over time rather than all at once. After market parts are the stocks, trigger, thumb safety, EGW bushing and CMC extended mag catch.
Hersh, Very cool nonetheless! So by transitional do you mean that during a specific year/years they manufactured the 1991A1 ORM with these parts stock? I didn't think they made ANY 1991's with beavertails (except for the current offering i guess) or elongated hammers.....live and learn. I'm a well-intentioned-Colt newbie tryin' to pick up the various and sometimes subtle differences in the series', models, and limited runs. If i'm right, and the transitionals were "limited" in production, does that make them of a higher value? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Thanks,
Eli

[OD*]

So by transitional do you mean that during a specific year/years they manufactured the 1991A1 ORM with these parts stock?
Colt made a number of different M1991A1s, this is a O1991LCM (Limited Class Model)

http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/1991z.jpg

[elijdub]

got it. thanks. are they hard to find?
Is that unfired? tags on and such... NICE!

[cliff731]

That's a beautiful Colt, OD*... the LCM name implies competitive shooting to me... does it have a match barrel and bushing?

[OD*]

Thanks Cliff.

No sir, it doesn't have the NM barrel nor bushing, but it is a tightly fitted pistol. It's fairly accurate for a semi-production gun too. ;)

This is the target that came with the pistol.

http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/1991ztarget.jpg.w560h602.jpg

[cliff731]

Geezzz... OD*, by the looks of that target, your Colt LCM doesn't need any "improvement"...!!! http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Hersh]

Hersh, Very cool nonetheless! So by transitional do you mean that during a specific year/years they manufactured the 1991A1 ORM with these parts stock? Eli

Eli,

I don't think it was so much about creating something unique as it was about design changes and new parts being phased in over time. Mine also has polished flats and the original 1991A1 ORM had bead blasted flats, iirc.

For comparison, here's what the gun looked like out of the box with the exception of the stocks and the "poor man's front strap.". The original stocks were the matte black rubber.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/Hershel_Van/Commander.jpg

[elijdub]

Eli,

I don't think it was so much about creating something unique as it was about design changes and new parts being phased in over time. Mine also has polished flats and the original 1991A1 ORM had bead blasted flats, iirc.

For comparison, here's what the gun looked like out of the box with the exception of the stocks and the "poor man's front strap.". The original stocks were the matte black rubber.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/Hershel_Van/Commander.jpg

Hersh, Got it, thanks. That makes sense. I'm realizing how interesting it is that there were so many design changes over the years with Colts that inevitably lead to alot of variation.
Nice ORM btw, again. I like it!
I have the same surefire too!
Eli

[Hersh]

I'm realizing how interesting it is that there were so many design changes over the years with Colts that inevitably lead to alot of variation.Eli

Eli,

"Now we're tracking" as Hunter would say. ;)

Here's an article posted by Dana Kamm you might enjoy: http://www.m1911.org/prodte27.htm. In the article he specifically mentions how some of these variations come to be.

"It is worth mentioning at this point that Colt didn't simply turn off the lights one evening, and then the next morning begin making pistols with the new changes. The changes were incremental over the course of several months. As a result, pistols can be found that still say "M1991A1" yet have polished slide flats, and others exist with the new slide rollmark and polished slide but with all-matte frames."

Btw, the Surefire is without a doubt the best flashlight I've ever owned!

[elijdub]

Eli,

"Now we're tracking" as Hunter would say. ;)

Here's an article posted by Dana Kamm you might enjoy: http://www.m1911.org/prodte27.htm. In the article he specifically mentions how some of these variations come to be.

"It is worth mentioning at this point that Colt didn't simply turn off the lights one evening, and then the next morning begin making pistols with the new changes. The changes were incremental over the course of several months. As a result, pistols can be found that still say "M1991A1" yet have polished slide flats, and others exist with the new slide rollmark and polished slide but with all-matte frames."

Btw, the Surefire is without a doubt the best flashlight I've ever owned!

Hersh,
Absolutely! I'm getting a "grip" on this. (and i'm an avid "hunter" myself!!)
Thanks for the article. I'm eating this stuff up! I've come to realize in recent weeks that despite the various perks of other 1911 makers (many of which i own/have owned) there is just something special about Colts. The OG specs, the clean lines... Anyhow, i appreciate the input.

BTW, i used my Nitrolon for Elk season last year here in New Mexico (before i bought the E2). I could not believe it when i turned it on on opening day to take the walk in the dark to where i'd "set up" (for the morning hunt) at dawn. The amount of light those things produce is incredible!
Eli