Why a Thompson? 1911 shopping

[mrjata]

I am 1911 shopping and would like your input as to what is good about Thompson.

[stans]

Cheap, but then so is a Springfield G.I. WW II and the Springfield has better slides and frames. Sorry, but I still hear complaints about Auto Ord's quality and I think they still have a ways to go before I would consider buying one.

[hpcc19]

I have several AO's. They are inexpensive and American made. One is a lemon(1911TC). One is a fraud(1927A). and two of them are great pieces. They are accurate, reliable and well made.

I am sure that eventually the folks in Massachusetts will turn the lemon into lemonade.

I have a Colt 1991 GI that is no better than the AO GI....but it does have the cute horsey and vertical slide serrations. The AO also is basic 1911 without the model 80 gizmos which I don't appreciate.

I also own a Springfield lemon (M1) that has made the warranty trip to Geneseo FOUR times.

[rudie8125]

What about the Springfield slides is better?

[stans]

Springfield uses forged steel slides, just like Colt, Kimber, and S&W. Even Dan Wesson uses forgings or bar stock slides on most of their 1911's. Auto Ordnance uses castings for slides. Slides are subject to a lot of shock and vibration and the junction of the recoil spring plug tunnel and the body of the slide is an area that can be prone to cracking. Even forged slides can eventually crack, but because of the ductility of forged and bar stock slides they will absorb the impact better than the more brittle castings.

Frames are a different story and a well made cast frame will hold up.

[shep854]

I bought my "GI M1911A1" last spring and have close to 2000 rounds of Wolf(!) through it, and it has been a gem. I recently abused it with some hot hand-me-down handloads and cracked the barrel bushing, but that's being taken care of. Like any auto, it will choke on bad magazines.

I happily recommend the Kahr/Auto-Ordnance pistols.

[hpcc19]

[QUOTE=stans]Springfield uses forged steel slides, just like Colt, Kimber, and S&W. Even Dan Wesson uses forgings or bar stock slides on most of their 1911's. Auto Ordnance uses castings for slides.


The Thompson Custom 1911 frame is machined on high precision computerized machinery from a stainless steel investment casting. The slide is machined from a solid stainless steel billet utilizing specialized tooling to reduce set-up and refixturing. The combination of high precision equipment and fewer set-ups result in a higher quality and more consistent final product at a lower price.

According to the Kahr/Thompson website http://www.autoordnance.com/ao_1911tc_f.html

[rudie8125]

I was just going to mention that I read when Justin Moon acquired Auto Ordinance, he converted the factory so that the slides were machined from a forged billet, while the frames still come from a casting. That's what it says in Patrick Sweeney's book, "The Gun Digest Book of the 1911."

But it looks like hpcc19 beat me to the punch. So does anyone know how to identify a Moon-made pistol with a forged slide from a pre-Moon cast slide? Maybe I can give Kahr/AO a call and find out some serial number info...

[rudie8125]

Also, I bought an all-stainless Kahr K40 Covert last fall and I am very impressed. It's built like a brick sh&th@#se, and it's as heavy as a brick (the new covert only comes with a poly frame), but I love it. It seems to be very well made and I am happy enough with it to carry it wherever I go (in the state of Pennsylvania). I have heard Justin Moon called a manufacturing genius, and that gives me a lot of faith in his products.

I will definitely be checking out the Moon-made AO 1911 at the show next month.

[stans]

The best and easiest way that I have found to identify a casting is by visual inspection of the internal surfaces. Castings will often exhibit varying degrees of porosity in the surface of the part, you can often see a pebbly suface on areas that did not require machining and there will sometimes be a visible parting line down the long axis of the part.

[deezulsmoke]

Caspian frames are now cast. There is a difference between investment castings and MIM. There is also a difference between just billet and forged. The frames of the SA are forged. The AO is cast. There is a constant debate as to which is better. A LOT of people replace the MIM in the guns and will not buy cast anything. There are a of receivers out there these days that are cast. It is all about the process and how dense the castings are. There was a great thread going on the other 1911 forum about MIM with some real experts checking in. Too bad. You can bet the cheaper the gun, the cheaper the parts. I will only buy forged 1911 frames and slides, and have replaced all of the MIM in my SAs. Personal preference, but MIM in my mind will not last as long as forged or tool steel. When doing a trigger job on a MIM SA sear, it would take like 2-3 cuts with the stone and it was done. Too soft. The CMC sear is harder and will take a nice edge. Nothing at all like an EGW or STI. It takes many many passes with the stone to get the edge and I guarantee that it will last the life of the gun. MIM and cast will work well for grips safeties, perhaps slide stops, triggers. I will not trust them for hammers, sears, disconnectors, hammer struts and so on. Anything that gets a lot of stress or wear will not last as long in MIM as they will in tool steel or forged. But in the end, it all boils down to how well the part is made and how hard and dense the metal is.

Deez.

[Hawkmoon]

Springfield uses forged steel slides, just like Colt, Kimber, and S&W. Even Dan Wesson uses forgings or bar stock slides on most of their 1911's. Auto Ordnance uses castings for slides.


The Thompson Custom 1911 frame is machined on high precision computerized machinery from a stainless steel investment casting. The slide is machined from a solid stainless steel billet utilizing specialized tooling to reduce set-up and refixturing. The combination of high precision equipment and fewer set-ups result in a higher quality and more consistent final product at a lower price.

According to the Kahr/Thompson website http://www.autoordnance.com/ao_1911tc_f.html
I saw the same paragraph in the Thompson/Auto Ordnance catalog. But it was under the description of the Thompson 1911, which was on a separate page from the Auto Ordnance 1911 models. Is the Thompson something different? Does the Thompson have a billet slide and the Kahr/Auto Ordnance pistols use a cast slide?

Does anyone know?

[hpcc19]

I saw the same paragraph in the Thompson/Auto Ordnance catalog. But it was under the description of the Thompson 1911, which was on a separate page from the Auto Ordnance 1911 models. Is the Thompson something different? Does the Thompson have a billet slide and the Kahr/Auto Ordnance pistols use a cast slide?

Does anyone know?

OK, this one is from American Rifleman

Auto-Ordnance currently produces three Government Model guns, the Model 1911PKZ, Model T1911 and Model 1911WGS (a Commander-length gun may be introduced in 2002). All have 5" barrels, fixed sights, bar stock slides of 4140 steel and 4140 investment-cast frames. The Model T1911 is the standard model and has small G.I.-type iron sights, brown plastic stocks and a matte black oxide finish. The deluxe 1911WGS also has a matte black finish, but sports high-visibility three-dot iron sights and black textured rubber wraparound stocks.

[rudie8125]

It looks like Stans was right about AO slides. I contacted customer service at Kahr the other day and the representative told me that the slides for the GI replica (1911PKZ) are indeed made from castings. She also told me that I could distinguish between a Kahr-made AO and the older AOs from the manufacturing location stamp: Worcester, MA means Kahr made it, West Hurley, NY means it's an older one.

I guess it shows you have to doublecheck everything anyone says (except maybe Stans).

[stans]

Don't put all of your faith in me, I am just a hair's breadth shy of being blind! That's what happens when you stare at the fireball coming out of a barrel too long. :D

[freiwilliger]

Hi

I'm new to board and I have a 1911 "deluxe" made in Mass. I've put close to 700 rounds downrange with it in an effort to understand why its shoots so unpredictably. After a great deal of experimenting I've discovered that the main thing wrong with it is my shooting technique. :o

Once I discovered that I was able to get one inch groups at 10 yrds. They're about 5 inches low and 2.5 in right even after I adjusted the sights. So maybe a trigger job is in order and I'm not sure what else?

If this gun teaches me how to shoot and tune a 1911 then its worth it.

[woozyduke]

Caspian frames are now cast. There is a difference between investment castings and MIM. There is also a difference between just billet and forged. The frames of the SA are forged. The AO is cast. There is a constant debate as to which is better. A LOT of people replace the MIM in the guns and will not buy cast anything. There are a of receivers out there these days that are cast. It is all about the process and how dense the castings are. There was a great thread going on the other 1911 forum about MIM with some real experts checking in. Too bad. You can bet the cheaper the gun, the cheaper the parts. I will only buy forged 1911 frames and slides, and have replaced all of the MIM in my SAs. Personal preference, but MIM in my mind will not last as long as forged or tool steel. When doing a trigger job on a MIM SA sear, it would take like 2-3 cuts with the stone and it was done. Too soft. The CMC sear is harder and will take a nice edge. Nothing at all like an EGW or STI. It takes many many passes with the stone to get the edge and I guarantee that it will last the life of the gun. MIM and cast will work well for grips safeties, perhaps slide stops, triggers. I will not trust them for hammers, sears, disconnectors, hammer struts and so on. Anything that gets a lot of stress or wear will not last as long in MIM as they will in tool steel or forged. But in the end, it all boils down to how well the part is made and how hard and dense the metal is.

Deez.
Caspian does offer cast frames for thoese on a budget,but there main line is still all stainless frames and slides...clark and baer both use caspian frames and slides,and there 2 of the top makers out here.

[shep854]

Hi

Once I discovered that I was able to get one inch groups at 10 yrds. They're about 5 inches low and 2.5 in right even after I adjusted the sights.

Was this from a rest? If not, you may be moving the pistol as you press the trigger. I have to work constantly at avoiding any movement other than straight back when I shoot. Resting the pistol on a sandbag, range bag or even a rolled-up jacket will help minimize movement as you fire the gun. Then you can tell if the sights are off.

To save tons of money while practicing the fundamentals, get a .22 pistol or conversion for your .45.

[freiwilliger]

[QUOTE=shep854] If not, you may be moving the pistol as you press the trigger. I have to work constantly at avoiding any movement other than straight back when I shoot.
QUOTE]

That is exactly the problem. I have to pull the trigger vs. squeaze my hand. I can group very nicely when I do this properly. Rapid fire is a challenge I haven't overcome yet. :cool:

[shep854]

[QUOTE=shep854] If not, you may be moving the pistol as you press the trigger. I have to work constantly at avoiding any movement other than straight back when I shoot.
QUOTE]

That is exactly the problem. I have to pull the trigger vs. squeaze my hand. I can group very nicely when I do this properly. Rapid fire is a challenge I haven't overcome yet. :cool:


Tell me about it! :D

[Woodman]

I have several AO's. They are inexpensive and American made. One is a lemon(1911TC). One is a fraud(1927A). and two of them are great pieces. They are accurate, reliable and well made.

I am sure that eventually the folks in Massachusetts will turn the lemon into lemonade.

I have a Colt 1991 GI that is no better than the AO GI....but it does have the cute horsey and vertical slide serrations. The AO also is basic 1911 without the model 80 gizmos which I don't appreciate.

I also own a Springfield lemon (M1) that has made the warranty trip to Geneseo FOUR times.


I'm curious hpcc19, what about the 1927A is a fraud? My wife wants a "tommy gun" and I will not be able to afford a real one for quite some time, but I thought a current Semi-Auto reproduction like the ones Auto Ordinance makes now would be a nice stand in. Is this a gun I should avoid?

[hpcc19]

I'm curious hpcc19, what about the 1927A is a fraud? My wife wants a "tommy gun" and I will not be able to afford a real one for quite some time, but I thought a current Semi-Auto reproduction like the ones Auto Ordinance makes now would be a nice stand in. Is this a gun I should avoid?

Sorry, I never saw your post in March.

The pistol grips on the 1927 wouldn't get a passing grade in 9th grade shop. The safety lever is junk and the bolt handle is also junk. The mags are not "in spec and FTF and fail to lock. The 16" barrel, while legal, really detracts from the look of the piece. The ladder sight falls out regardless of the amount of loctite used.

Also, the recoil spring is sooo strong that it can't be cocked by man or beast.

ALL of these issues can be fixed and they were on my Thompson, including changing the barrel to 10". It takes over a year and over $1200 additional to make the $900 gun acceptable.

I am very pleased with what I have now, but feel somewhat "defrauded".