Difference between pre-series 70, 70, and 80 please??

[elijdub]

Hello fellow forum members,
i usually spend my time on other areas of the forum. i'm becoming increasingly interested in COLTS due to their heritage, reliability, and adherence (for the most part) to "original" specs. i'm in the market for a commander (or possibly an officer), but prior to purchase i'd like to do my homework. i'm not too familiar with their different models (beyond what can be gleaned from their catalogue). my main question (with more to follow, i'm sure!) is:
what are the differences between the pre-series 70's, the series 70's, and the series 80's (FP safety here, i'd imagine, right?)? :confused: furthermore, are there other MAJOR designs i'm missing here (not limited "runs", but other "serieses")?
some input would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance,
eli
P.S. i apologize for the redundancy, as i'm sure this topic has benn gone over a few hundred times before...! :dead_hors

[OD*]

Dana Kamm wrote a good explanation of the differences..

Colt is the original manufacturer of 1911 pattern pistols, having made versions for both the military as well as commercial market since regular production began in January 1912. The commercial versions were nearly identical to the military ones, differing only in markings and finish. Following World War Two military production ended, but the commercial guns remained in production with only minor changes such as deletion of the lanyard loop and a larger thumb safety shelf. These pistols are known to collectors as "pre-Series 70" guns, as they pre-dated the Series 70 guns introduced in 1971. It was during this year that Colt introduced the first major design change to the Government Model in nearly 50 years. In an attempt to improve the accuracy of production guns the barrel bushing was redesigned, along with the barrel. In this system the bushing utilized four spring-steel "fingers" that gripped the enlarged diameter of the muzzle end of the barrel as the gun returned to battery. By tightening the fit of barrel and bushing in this manner Colt was able to improve the accuracy of the average production gun, without going through the expense of hand fitting the older solid barrel bushing to the barrel and slide. Models using the new barrel/bushing setup were the Government Model and Gold Cup, which were designated the "Mark IV Series 70" or simply Series 70 pistols. It should be noted that the shorter 4 1/4" barreled Commander pistols retained the use of the older solid bushing design and thus were never designated Series 70 pistols, although one hears the term erroneously applied to Commanders from time to time.

The new "collet" bushing (as it came to be known) worked quite well, however it was prone to breakage if the inside diameter of the slide was too small as it caused the fingers to buckle, then later break from the stress of being wedged between the barrel and slide. On pistols with oversized slides the bushing didn't grip well enough, and accuracy suffered. Because of this the collet bushing was eventually phased out sometime around 1988, with the older solid barrel bushing design being reinstated for use in production guns.

The single biggest change to the 1911 design came about in 1983, when Colt introduced the "MK IV Series 80" pistols. These guns incorporated a new firing pin block safety system, where a series of internal levers and a plunger positively blocked the firing pin from moving until the trigger was pressed, thus eliminating the possibility of the gun discharging if dropped onto a hard surface or struck hard. In this instance however, ALL of Colt's 1911-pattern pistols incorporated the new design change so even the Commander and Officer's ACP pistols became known as Series 80 guns. With the previous paragraph in mind, it is important to know that from 1983 until 1988 the early Government Model and Gold Cup Series 80 pistols used the Series 70-type barrel and bushing as well, although they were known only as Series 80 guns.

There was one other design change made to the Series 80 guns as well, and that was a re-designed half-cock notch. On all models the notch was changed to a flat shelf instead of a hook, and it is located where half-cock is engaged just as the hammer begins to be pulled back. This way the half-cock notch will still perform its job of arresting the hammer fall should your thumb slip while manually cocking the pistol, yet there is no longer a hook to possibly break and allow the hammer to fall anyway. With the notch now located near the at-rest position, you can pull the trigger on a Series 80 while at half-cock and the hammer WILL fall. However, since it was already near the at-rest position the hammer movement isn't sufficient to impact the firing pin with any amount of force.

Regarding the "clone" guns (1911-pattern pistols made by manufacturers other than Colt), only Para-Ordinance adopted Colt's Series 80 firing pin block system as well. Kimber's Series II pistols and the new S&W 1911s have a FP safety also, but it is a different system than Colt's and is disabled by depressing the grip safety. No manufacturers aside from Colt ever adopted the Series 70 barrel/bushing arrangement, so technically there are no "Series 70" clone guns. What this means is that design-wise most of them share commonality with the pre-Series 70 guns, using neither the firing pin block NOR the collet bushing. Because of this it is important to remember that only Colt Series 80 models, and a couple of "clone" 1911 makers use a firing pin block. Older Colts and most other clone guns lack a firing pin safety and can possibly discharge if there is a round in the chamber and the gun is dropped on a hard surface, or if struck a blow hard enough to allow the firing pin to jump forward and impact the primer of the loaded round. By the way, Colt has just recently reintroduced new custom pistols lacking the S80 firing pin safety (called the Gunsite models) as well as a reintroduced original-style Series 70 to appeal to purists. Interestingly, the latter uses a solid barrel bushing and Series 80 hammer, so it is somewhat different mechanically than the original Series 70 models.

Regarding the controversy involving getting a decent trigger pull on a Series 80 gun, it is only of importance if the gunsmith attempts to create a super-light pull (under four pounds) for target or competition use. In defense/carry guns where a four-pound or heavier pull is necessary, the added friction of the Series 80 parts adds little or nothing to the pull weight or feel. A good gunsmith can do an excellent trigger job on a Series 80 and still leave all the safety parts in place, although he will probably charge a little more than if the gun were a Series 70 since there are more parts to work with. But any gunsmith who tells you that you can't get a good trigger on a Series 80 without removing the safety parts is likely either lazy or incompetent.


1991 vs. 1911

For those wondering what the difference is between these pistols, the fact is there really is none. Back in 1991 Colt decided to market an economy version of their basic Series 80 Government Model. The polished blue was changed to an all-matte parkerized (later blue) finish, checkered rubber grip panels were used, and the serial number sequence was made similar to US military M1911A1 pistols. The resulting pistol was cleverly named "M1991A1", after the year of introduction. Mechanically however they are the same as any other Colt Series 80, 1911-type pistol.
__________________
D. Kamm

[larry starling]

Dana Kamm wrote a good explanation of the differences..
That pretty much sum's it up. Great post OD..... :)

[OD*]

Thanks Larry.

A few things could be updated since Dana first wrote this.
Taurus now uses the Series 80 FP block and I believe the newer Series '70 repro use the correct half-cock hammers.
Also, when the M1991A1 model was introduced, they had plastic stocks, later Colt changed them to rubber.

[Rio Vista Slim]

Thanks Larry.

A few things could be updated since Dana first wrote this.
Taurus now uses the Series 80 FP block and I believe the newer Series '70 repro use the correct half-cock hammers.
Also, when the M1991A1 model was introduced, they had plastic stocks, later Colt changed them to rubber.
Totally great information, OD*! I thank you and Dana.
One other small change that I noticed on my Model 04691 all steel blued Commander, is a return to polishing the flats of the slide. Not as beautiful as the pre-70 or Series 70 guns, but not bad.

[OD*]

You're welcome Slim. ;)

I think Dana did a great job with too.

[Hawkmoon]

Thanks Larry.

A few things could be updated since Dana first wrote this.
Taurus now uses the Series 80 FP block and I believe the newer Series '70 repro use the correct half-cock hammers.
Also, when the M1991A1 model was introduced, they had plastic stocks, later Colt changed them to rubber.
I believe Auto-Ordnance and SIG also use the Series 80 firing pin safety system now.

[Vermont John]

Hello fellow forum members,
i usually spend my time on other areas of the forum. i'm becoming increasingly interested in COLTS due to their heritage, reliability, and adherence (for the most part) to "original" specs. i'm in the market for a commander (or possibly an officer), but prior to purchase i'd like to do my homework. i'm not too familiar with their different models (beyond what can be gleaned from their catalogue). my main question (with more to follow, i'm sure!) is:
what are the differences between the pre-series 70's, the series 70's, and the series 80's (FP safety here, i'd imagine, right?)? :confused: furthermore, are there other MAJOR designs i'm missing here (not limited "runs", but other "serieses")?
some input would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance,
eli
P.S. i apologize for the redundancy, as i'm sure this topic has benn gone over a few hundred times before...! :dead_hors
I have a question, and am new to this site.

I have a 70s Colt Combat Commander. I have started shooting occasionally on weekends in a somewhat competitive way. I would like better sights and a longer sight radius. Can I buy a longer barrel, silide, spring, etc to adapt my Commander to a more target style when I want to? The bottom line is: Is the receiver block the same for all Colt 1911s? Thankls.

[OD*]

Is the receiver block the same for all Colt 1911s?
No sir, the frame rails and recoil spring channel (dust-cover) are shorter. You can put a longer slide etc., on it, but you will have a gap. You would be better served by selling the Commander and buying something else.

[OD*]

I believe Auto-Ordnance and SIG also use the Series 80 firing pin safety system now.
You might be right, Hawk.

[Chesster]

I believe Auto-Ordnance and SIG also use the Series 80 firing pin safety system now.

You are correct on the AO. Were it not for the FPS, it would be one of the closest WWII clones on the market appearance and function wise.

[elijdub]

OD (Dana Kamm) and other,
Thanks for the great information. That is exactly what "i" was looking for to help make a decision about a Colt. Is it just me, or do the series 70's, with their possibly mishapen and faulty bushings, not seem to desirable? It seems that: if you can get your hands on one, the original, non-commercial/or commercial one's are the most desirable (pre-series 70's), followed by either the repro's or the series 80's? Is this correct?
Thanks again all for the input,
Eli

[OD*]

I believe the order of desirability is (not including martial pistols, just Commercials), pre-wars, original Series '70s, repro's then Series 80s.

[TattooPaul]

Eli - FWIW when I get some money again (one of these days) a pre-war (pref. 38 Super) or original 70 Series are next on my list. Otherwise the 70 Repro, which is a beautiful gun that I believe still comes out of the custom Shop there, is very desireable and more affordable than vintage ones. I do enjoy my 80 Series XSE quite a bit though... the pin block is an additional level of safety when cocked and locked. It's a trigger activated way of blocking the FP instead of the grip safety activated Swartz, which originated with Colt but wasn't revived with them after WWII. Kimber is one who has picked up that method of blocking the FP for the drop test.

Be forewarned - vintage Colt's fetch a pretty penny and you need to do a lot of digging to find the right deal.

[elijdub]

OD, thanks...now if i can only afford one!

Paul, i've been searching around a bit. proportionately, it doesn't seem that there ARE many available (for a reasonable amount of money. there seem to be lots that are overpriced!). i'm thinking the same as you, pre-series 70 (or maybe repro), but i really like the commander! the question is whether to shoot it much, or not...? do you know where to find these guys?
personally, i don't mind the FPS. i kinda' like the additional security (i know...i'm not a purist!), but would be very happy to own one without it, also.

[OD*]

You're welcome sir.

Bud's has a Series 80 Commander for a pretty good price;
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_141/products_id/36335

[elijdub]

OD,
HA, it's funny you mention it...i was just looking at that, via GOOGLE! 696$ or so, right?
question:
1)in the list of desirability you mentioned series 70's as second best. what about their "ify" bushing assembly as mentioned by Dana? is that something to worry about?
2)how about these "series 70 repro's" i keep hearing about (i heard they're doing 4000...?)? do you know anything about this?
thanks alot,
Eli

[OD*]

what about their "ify" bushing assembly as mentioned by Dana? is that something to worry about?
I have seen exactly one break in all my years of messing with Colt. But, if it was going to be my main carry piece, yes sir, I would install a solid bushing. I am a firm believer in Mr. Murphy and his law. ;)

how about these "series 70 repro's" i keep hearing about (i heard they're doing 4000...?)? do you know anything about this?
As far as I know, it's a regular production pistol thru the Custom Shop and not a limited run.

[Rio Vista Slim]

elijdub,
1) Although I have heard of the fingers of a collet-style barrel bushing breaking, I've never seen it first hand.
2) The current production Series 70 pistols do not have a finite production number that I am aware of.

Sorry OD*!!
Had to jump in on this one. :)

[elijdub]

Ok, thanks. i wasn't thinkin' you could easily modify the '70's bushing assembly...OFCOURSE!
And the limited run thing, i think it was from a custom shop now that you mention it.... cylinder-slide maybe...? i'll look into it. a buddy of mine called me yesterday telling me of a limited run on "some" repro's...i just can't remember which. time for a phone call.
thanks again

[OD*]

I put your post back up Slim, it's a good reply. ;)

[OD*]

a buddy of mine called me yesterday telling me of a limited run on "some" repro's...i just can't remember which. time for a phone call.
Most likely the WWI repros. ;)

[elijdub]

Thanks gents...much appreciated.

[TattooPaul]

Hey Eli! The 70 Series Repro is not limited as the WWI Repro is. If you can get your hands on a WWI Repro I HIGHLY recommend it - reasonable prices still to be found and being limited it'll be a keeper. They are VERY well done and are 70 Series. It's a reasonably priced beauty. I come across a lot of various Commanders on auction sites and shops that are online. The Cabela's by me will usually try to get what I'd like but that is only factory new. There's a lot of very interesting pieces of differing vintage online - do some digging...

[JustinTime]

Great Post Dan. Very informative (as usual)

[elijdub]

Paul, thanks. i PM'd you with some questions. I WANT a REPRO!!

[OD*]

Great Post Dan. Very informative (as usual)
Still working a bunch of hours? Haven't heard from ya in awhile.

[daveohno]

I have seen exactly one break in all my years of messing with Colt. But, if it was going to be my main carry piece, yes sir, I would install a solid bushing. I am a firm believer in Mr. Murphy and his law. ;)


Kind of like Big Foot, I keep hearing about him, but I haven't seen him yet....

[OD*]

:p

***********************************************

[JustinTime]

Still working a bunch of hours? Haven't heard from ya in awhile.

Yes sir. 70 hours last week. I already have 43 hours this week and will end up around 74 hours for the week.