.38 Super for trail protection

[horse 91-A1]

Anyone using the 1911 in .38 Super for protection on the trail? In experimenting with 147gr Winchester JHP and 147gr GS and AA #7 I'm getting no more than a one inch rise/drop out to 65yds according to software data. This load drops down to 9mm muzzle velocities at 100yds.

I'm comfortable shooting the Colt at 50-60yds on demand, but want to test out to 100yds. Anyone have experience shooting the .38 Super at longer ranges?

Trail carry here means a multitude of things and it's the quick follow-up shot ability of the mild recoiling .38 Super and its accuracy that seems to make it a prime contender for trail CCW. My biggest concern is charging javelina, packs of feral/hybrid (wolf cross) dogs and other potentially dangerous situations. A M64 (.38spcl) loaded with snake shot will take care of the aggressive slithery creatures.

Although this area is saturated with lions and black bears, I don't see them as any particular risk. May have to carry a mag of hardcast tho. :)

Most parts of the country have to deal with bad guys for defense; here it's critters and then bad guys.

Bob
FWIW, AA #7 powder was developed for the .38 Super and for all practical purposes is on par with N105 with 147gr designs.

[littledoc]

What are you getting, about 1150 or so? That's about what s short barrel .357 mag does, so it shoud be adequate for everything but the big stuff.

[Hunter]

I believe the Super .38 properly loaded will suffice as a defensive trail pistol like littledoc says for everything but the big stuff.
The Super .38 is flatter shooting than the .45 ACP and I have gotten fair groups with the .45 ACP at 100 yards. I am sure past about 50 yards would be the practical limit for a well aimed shot carrying enough kinetic energy to be effective.
According to the Hornady manual the Super .38 will push a 147gr JHP to about 1150fps out of a 5" barrel.
That generates 432 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle which drops to 377 ft lbs at 50 yards. With a 25 yard zero it will be .08" low just past the muzzle and 1.0" low at 50 yards.
At 75 yards with that same zero there is 3.8" drop and 356 ft lbs.

[Cuda66]

Not sure about hogs, but I've had to use 9mm 147grn HydraShok out of a Beretta 92FS against a belligerent german shepherd; the first shot (chest) took the fight out of it and dropped it, the second was a coup de grace.

Since they aren't movin' near as fast as yours (1,000fps, 325ftlbs), I'd say they'd work ok against feral dogs.

[horse 91-A1]

The CED chrono is putting a seven shot string 147gr JHP Win notched MV@1270fps/556fpe with an ES 24fps, SD 08fps. AA #7 is showing 110fps more than AA #9, but I'm still doing 147gr JHP workups with Win notched, GS, XTP and GD.

This is a much more accurate load than WWB 130gr FMJ.

The biggest obstacle to overcome so far has been the reliability of the Wilson combat mags compared to Colt's with COALs over 1.260".

I need to add some pics to the barrier penetrating thread, this platform/caliber combo is turning out to be a very pleasant surprise for game/self/home defense. :)

Bob

[Chessbum]

Apples and oranges here I think. I read once about an eskimo killing a bear with a .22 with a shot to the head. What ever I am carrying in woods with bears all ways seems like it is two small of a caliber. Must be why I went out and bought my Marlin 45/70 Guide Gun? Even wondered about that being to small when it started getting dark...

[IMR]

Het Chessbum,
I've got a Marlin GG in 45-70 and love it.

Are you the same fella that visits the LW, and shoots HH bows?

[Chessbum]

Yes I am the guy. I also have been bow running to our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2004...Check out http://michiganlongbow.org/new_page_3.htm
to see some of the pictures. Sounds like we have much in common IMR. I bought the 45-70 for bear hunting in Maine and plan on using it for the same again someday. JohnV.

[Chessbum]

The main reason I bought the 45-70 was that I was hunting with my daughter who was using a 30-06. She shot the bear once at close range and I shot him with my 12 gauge while he was up and moving. He came at my tree stand faster than lightning and I put another slug into him at the bottom of my tree where he turned and went to the woods where I shot again. To make a point here this bear was shot up and we never found him. Much blood fat and bone but no bear. Don't like to tell this story because we did everything wrong here but she was 15 then and it was to be her first bear. The point is when talking about using a handgun for protection is a **** shoot against a bear in my opinion. By the way the next year I took her to Montana where she put a wood arrow from a 40 pound longbow through the heart of a deer. You can find the picture of her and her deer on one of the trophy pages of the site I put on the message above. Maybe a longbow and arrow is better trail protection than a handgun? Shot placement is the all important point I try to make here. JohnV.

[IMR]

Yea Chessbum, i think we do have a lot in common.

The bigest thing i've killed with the GG is deer, but i've killed a lot more of them with the longbow & recurve.
Your right about shot placement... no matter what the caliber, or broadhead arrow.

[Chessbum]

I think that guide gun with its size, weight and caliber size may be the best trail protection available for both man and beast.

[horse 91-A1]

I think that guide gun with its size, weight and caliber size may be the best trail protection available for both man and beast.

Have that base covered too, Remington 405 JSP @1800fps and developing the hardcast version. :)

Since verifying a blackie on the desert property near residence buildings, CCW is now M29 Mountain w/240gr lasercast when going for a desert walk. This is a comfortable carry in a high, pancake, tilt holster.

Is anyone loading the 160gr cast performance in the .38 Super? CP website has .358" 160gr listed and AA lists 160gr CP RN data in the 1100fps range; AA/#7, #9; 1.280" COAL. That COAL negates using Wilson mags because of Wilson's stated maximum 1.260" COAL.

Bob

[horse 91-A1]

Should have known that Colt already had the answer to this question decades ago. :D

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/38Superstopsanygame.jpg

Apparently Jeff Cooper thought favorably about the .38 Super for trail use. :)

I've seen load data for 180gr hardcast, anyone loading that heavy?

Bob

[rkamp59]

Back in the day when I was constantly roaming the hills
of N. CA looking for feral hogs, my main sidearms were
a Smith 5" classic in 44 Mag, and a Colt Govt. series 80
in .38 Super.

The gun writers back then trashed the 10mm as being too
hard on the 1911. My only recourse was to add a fully
supported bar-sto barrel and use Cor-Bon 115/125 gr jhp
for defense or hand load 147 gr XTP's with AA#7 for hunting.

The .38 Super ran into a hack smith (another story) and has since been sold. I now use a Colt 10mm when I am out in the boonies. But a .38 Super loaded with full throttle
ammo as I remember was very comforting when walking up on a downed hog that had just been dispatched with a rifle.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o196/rkamp_111/DSC00925.jpg

[horse 91-A1]

I went through a box of handloaded hi-po 147gr Golden Sabers with AA #7 and this loading has all the apperances of being a nasty combination for most critters. Looking inside a fired casing and there's no powder residue, very clean for the lube and bore means lots of rounds fired w/o having to clean for a long range day session.

The muzzle blast is so low that I didn't use my ear muffs after the third mag.

Hornady has load data using their .357mag 140gr XTP in the Super in addition to the .355 147gr XTP; it may be worth a try as a deep penetrator and it may be more accurate. :)

I'm surprised this round isn't more popular outside the competition groups.

Like you, I carry a .44mag primary cylinder 240gr hardcast 1200fps +, S&W M29 Mountain in a high rise paddle holster and it's an easy carry for the trail. :)

Bob

[twin oaks]

I'm glad to see that some rifles were mentioned. I've witnessed a pitbull take 4 9mm to the chest/torso, and two to the head. That slowed it down for the shooter to sidestep and take a spine shot. ( the shooter was active military and a very good shot) My point is that a feral dog/ wolf hybrid may not accept that being shot is detrimental to its health. Likewise with anything larger. I know deep penetrating bullets do wonders for an animal's disposition, but engaging at pistol range ( even 100 yards) seems like more of 'have to' than a 'like to', when a good sized canine can run at 35+ MPH. With a rifle or carbine, you've got better range, a longer sight radius for more accuracy, more powerful rounds, and a club when you've depleted ALL your ammo.

[daveohno]

I know a guy that shot a pitbull many times with a 40 cal and the thing kept on keeping on. I believe it took about 8 to kill the animal.

[pa_guns]

Hi

In this day and age you can get some pretty enormous revolvers. I'm not sure I would trust any pistol on larger game, but I would trust a 50 S&W more than most.

Bob

[horse 91-A1]

I'm glad to see that some rifles were mentioned. I've witnessed a pitbull take 4 9mm to the chest/torso, and two to the head. That slowed it down for the shooter to sidestep and take a spine shot. ( the shooter was active military and a very good shot) My point is that a feral dog/ wolf hybrid may not accept that being shot is detrimental to its health. Likewise with anything larger. I know deep penetrating bullets do wonders for an animal's disposition, but engaging at pistol range ( even 100 yards) seems like more of 'have to' than a 'like to', when a good sized canine can run at 35+ MPH. With a rifle or carbine, you've got better range, a longer sight radius for more accuracy, more powerful rounds, and a club when you've depleted ALL your ammo.

The 9mm is pretty inept on javelina too, like a magazine worth of inept. By contrast, factory loaded .357mag (which is what handloaded .38 Super is) one shot that took out the entire spinal column of a charging javelina.

Pet dogs are predator magnets, last spring buddy of mine put down a hybrid with two .40 S&W LE rounds. First shot took out the lower jaw and exited the right lung leaving snot bubbles coming from the side. Hybrid again turned aggressively toward the pet dog and a head shot was instant put down.

Right now the most important carry for me is a S&W 64 3" with snake shot. :)

Bob