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View Full Version : Rocky start with Rock Island


adroitus
25th February 2005, 11:45
My RIA story starts about three weeks ago when I decided I wanted a M1911 pattern gun for my carry piece. (I'm a pretty big guy, so I think a big gun won't be too hard for me to conceal. Time will tell.) I was signed up for the class I needed in order to get my concealed carry permit, which is this weekend. This class is one day of orientation to use of force, decision making and legal ramifications and one day of tactical training with live fire. I wanted to have my gun for the class, but needed to take it out and shoot it to make sure it was reliable enough to make it through a 500-round day at the range.

After researching this forum and others, the RIA looked like a good value and a solid performer. I called my local gun shop and they had one on the shelf for $329. It was a basic G.I. model-looking gun with Parkerized finish, but had the nice touches like a beveled mag well, lowered and flared ejection port, and 8-rd Novak magazine. It went home with me that same day. After looking at the sights I realized that I would need something better than the G.I. spec sights that were on it, and I wanted a beavertail on it too. I took it to a local gunsmith and we picked out some Millet low-profile three-dot sights (front post and rear dovetail,) a Wilson Combat "drop-in" beavertail and Commander-style hammer. I kept the gun because I wanted to shoot it before doing any work on it.

I didn't get to shoot it that weekend because the gravel pit where I usually shoot was getting saturated by rain mixed with snow, but my class was getting closer and my gunsmith had jury duty looming ahead of him, so I chickened out and asked him to go ahead with the work. I know I should have shot the gun first, but after the glowing reviews I read here and other places, I decided to risk it and let him get started.

My gunsmith was able to install the sights with minimal work, but the drop-in beavertail wouldn't fit without machining the frame and the hammer had a different shape than the stock hammer and wouldn't fit without modification. I decided to forget about the beavertail and hoped that the A1 frame would protect me. I also bought 2 more Novak magazines identical to the OEM mags that came with the gun.

The next weekend I took the gun to an indoor range with 250 rounds of Remington UMC 230gr ball ammo and 50 more rounds of the same from Independence. I immediately started having failure-to-feed problems. I had picked out sights that were the same height as the factory sights, but the gun shot about 3" low at 10 yards. The FTF problems were making shooting the gun tedious. (My FTF rate for the whole day would end up being somewhere between 7 and 10%.)

I got through about 125 rounds and my front sight shot loose. What the hell? I packed everything up and took the gun back to my gunsmith. He ran the front sight through his swaging tool again, but the sight would not tighten down. He measured the thickness of the metal of the top of the slide and found that it was a bit thicker than a Colt and was not allowing the sight swaging tool to work properly. He did it "the old-fashioned way" and swaged the post with a punch, which left the sight firmly mounted again. He also adjusted the rear sight a bit to correct the point of impact. While he had it on the bench he gave the chamber a throat job and smoothed the feed ramp. I took the gun back to the range and continued shooting.

Point-of-impact was higher, and FTFs were fewer and farther between, but not completely gone. After another 75 rounds or so, the front sight shot off completely. I finished my ammo, hoping to break the gun in a bit more, and managed to hit the paper even without sights.

I think I will keep this gun and continue working with it to see if I can make it a reliable weapon. I guess I am one of the unlucky ones who got a diamond in the rough that will need some TLC to make work instead of a cut and polished gem. I think I will get a dovetail cut for the front sight, and continue to work on the feed ramp and chamber.

I will use a rented Glock 17 for my class this weekend. :mad: Maybe by the time I get my permit, my RIA will be ready to carry.

Adroitus

"An armed society is a polite society."
R.A. Heinlein

stans
27th February 2005, 16:55
Restaking a front sight that has already shot loose is a guarantee that the sight will fail. Yeah, ask me how I know that little nugget of information. :rolleyes:

The problem with installing larger sights in place of the tiny GI sights lies in the fact that you still have a tiny little stem (called a tenon) holding a much larger sight. The increased mass of the sight increases the momentum forces placed on the tenon during recoil. Chamfering the tenon hole inside the slide and placing some red Locktite on the tenon before staking will help. Colt went to a larger sized tenon with their Series 80 pistols to overcome this problem. You could have a gunsmith install a dovetailed front sight and this will eliminate any stretched tenons.

Labuyo
27th February 2005, 21:53
Restaking a front sight that has already shot loose is a guarantee that the sight will fail. Yeah, ask me how I know that little nugget of information. :rolleyes:

The problem with installing larger sights in place of the tiny GI sights lies in the fact that you still have a tiny little stem (called a tenon) holding a much larger sight. The increased mass of the sight increases the momentum forces placed on the tenon during recoil. Chamfering the tenon hole inside the slide and placing some red Locktite on the tenon before staking will help. Colt went to a larger sized tenon with their Series 80 pistols to overcome this problem. You could have a gunsmith install a dovetailed front sight and this will eliminate any stretched tenons.

' agree! Go for the extra mile and have it dovetailed. My smith charges me $25 for a front sight dovetail but no refinishing. But its okay, a touch-up bluing (Oxpo blue) works great. As for the FTF's, give it a thorough cleaning and shoot some more break-in rounds. I shoot 500 rds before I call any of my autoloaders reliable. If it continues after so much break-in, send it back to Armscor. I'm sure they'll take care of you. Their customer service is what sets them apart from other bargain priced manufacturers in the biz!
They have an in-house gunsmithing available now too. Go here www.1911forum.com and talk to Ivan (Blackdragon). Good luck!

adroitus
27th February 2005, 22:06
Thanks for the tip. I showed it to my gunsmith and he said he would try putting a shorter front sight (which he already happened to have) on the gun and see if it would stay and if it would help the accuracy. He is going to swage and silver solder it. He did mention that the sight had a narrow tenon. He had two tenon swaging tools, one narrow (that he said he never used) and a wide one.

I thought about getting the front sight dovetailed. That would simplify some things, but it would have to be refinished I guess. The gun is Parkerized, so I don't know what that would entail. My gunsmith said it would cost about $30 for the dovetail cut alone.

Adroitus

<snip>

The problem with installing larger sights in place of the tiny GI sights lies in the fact that you still have a tiny little stem (called a tenon) holding a much larger sight.<snip>You could have a gunsmith install a dovetailed front sight and this will eliminate any stretched tenons.

adroitus
3rd March 2005, 00:24
My gunsmith put the new sight in, swaged and soldered it, and took it out for a couple of test rounds. The damn thing shot right off again. It is currently having a dovetail milled and another sight installed.

The FTF problem seems to be caused by a weak recoil spring. I can often push on the back of the slide after it hangs and chamber the round. Also, the ejected shells are peening the rear of the ejection port, as if they are spinning out of the gun and whacking it before flying off behind me instead of off to the side. I noticed this past weekend at gun school one of the instructor's M1911's was throwing brass to the side instead of back.

I wonder if the sights are shooting off because the recoil spring is too weak and the slide is moving backwards too fast?

Adroitus

"An armed society is a polite society."
R.A. Heinlein

stans
3rd March 2005, 05:41
Sounds like the brass is not clearing the ejection port before the slide moves well forward and you are right, the edge of the port is whacking the shell and flinging it straight back. This could be from several sources. Weak extractor tension or the extractor is rotating a little within its tunnel. Improper recoil spring for the ammo. Shock buffer not allowing the slide to move fully to the rear.

Labuyo
3rd March 2005, 23:01
Put a little more tension on the extractor. And no, the recoil spring got nothing to do with what's happening on your front sight. Put an 18lb recoil spring and see what happens. It usually does the trick. Good luck!

P.S.
You can always send it back to Armscor for repair. ;)

adroitus
25th April 2005, 01:01
I think I'm about ready to get rid of this gun. My gunsmith dovetailed a front sight onto the slide. The sight is a blank, and he is going to machine it so that it shoots to point-of-aim. The problem is, I can see a gap around the dovetail and the sight slides back and forth easily. He pinned it so it will stay centered. I guess that's all right, but should a dovetailed sight be so loose that it needs a pin to hold it so it doesn't slide from side to side?

I guess that's an academic question now, because I shot the dovetailed sight off today. Bacause the front sight was a tiny bit loose, it was rocking back and jacking the pin out as I shot. It seemed to do all right while the gun was cold, but as I shot it and the slide heated up, the pin would start to come out. I tapped it back in a couple of times, but then waited a little too long one time and the whole front sight disappeared.

I think I can sell this gun as a range gun. It shoots a pretty good group, and if I ever get a sight on it that will stay on it will be fine for target shooting and plinking. It feeds correctly about 99% of the time, but it still hangs about half-way into battery occasionally. A lot of times the slap of an immediate action drill will put it into battery, but it still isn't reliable enough for a carry gun. I'm not sure what more to do with it. I guess I can try sending it back to Rock Island/Armscor and see what they will do with it.

mauser98
25th April 2005, 04:25
fire your gunsmith first off.

pinning a dovetailed sight is just not right imo.

sounds to me like someone performed lots of second rate "work" on this pistol b4 you took possession.

second, sights do not just fly off if properly mounted.

just my opinion.

My RIA 1911A1 Web Log (http://www.netwurx.net/~roxxi/ria.htm)

Labuyo
27th April 2005, 16:38
Yup, your gunsmith did a **** poor job! :mad:
I think he's using your gun as a learning piece.
A properly installed dovetail sights shouldn't move at all during firing. It would take a punch and a hammer to get it out.
Send it back to Armscor and take a chance. I'm almost certain they'll still take care of it (maybe for a small fee?).

TRPin
27th April 2005, 21:03
NEVER trust a gunsmith who is not smart enough to get out of jury duty! :eek: