Horrifying Thought

[gfavaron]

I am a shooter/shade-tree armorer, and delight in upgrading pre-70 and 70 series 1911's with hi rise grip safeties, new sights, etc for carry purposes. My current project gun is the oldest I have ever bought, and the first M1911 A1. Just for kicks I have followed some of the threads in this forum, and have now have developed the horrible thought that the old cannon might be too valuable to upgrade. I am not a collector, and wouldn't know a collectible from a tea kettle. The gun is an Ithaca M1911 A1, SN 1888xxx. The grips are unworn, and the overall finish is free from wear or significant scratches. On the left side it is stamped "FJA" near the slide stop plunger, a "P" beneath the mag release,and an illegible mark on the trigger guard. On the right side is stamped the crossed cannon of the ordnance corps, and the number "3" on the trigger guard. The barrel is blue and has no marking on the hood, but has "HS" stamped on the right side of the toggle above the pin, and what appears to be "P" on the left side. I cleaned the barrel before buying the gun, and it is virtually unblemished inside, but has the usual wear marks on the outside. Hopefully, you guys will tell me that the blue barrel means that the gun has already been altered out of the collector's arena, and I can go ahead with my tinkering. Otherwise, I guess I had best let it be . . . . . Oh well.

[RickB]

Blued barrel, in this case made by High Standard, is normal. That's not to say it's the original barrel for that gun, but the fact that the finish doesn't match is not an indication that the barrel has been changed. Unless the gun has had some irreversible machining or filing done on it, it is collectible.

[Hawkmoon]

What's so horrible about finding that your pistol may be worth a lot more than you thought it was? :D

I agree with Rick -- if it hasn't already been irreparably altered, leave it in original condition and configuration.

[gfavaron]

I guess it would have been helpful had I included a photo. Here tis.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/gnoravaf/1911-1888541.jpg

[RickB]

It's hard to tell from the pic, but if that gun hasn't been refinished, it appears to be in near-mint condition. Are the stocks wood? They aren't original if they are, but that's not a big deal.

[ArmscorBA]

Leave it alone!!! Buy a RIA??? ;)
Ivan

[vikz]

i'm with ivan..that is a fine 1911, ask 1911tuner but yes if you like to thinker get an ria its low price with a lot to offer..

[Joni Lynn]

I don't think I'd touch it if it was mine. I'd buy a RIA and play with it.

[gfavaron]

RickB asked if the stocks are wood - yes they are, and there are no markings on the undersides. I only recently acquired the gun from an elderly gentleman who said he bought it from the army just before the Korean war. A very battered US Army leather shoulder holster (straps missing), and a partial box of old GI ammo came with it. The ammo box is marked "Ball" "Caliber .45 M1911" and "Lot RA 5926" He said he only fired that portion of the ammo missing from the box, and the rest of the time the gun had just rested in his closet in the old holster. In fact, he said the magazine was lost many years ago. I cannot imagine that the gun was refinished, or at least not by him. There is a very slight amount of holster wear on the sharp edges of the slide. The only scratch I can find is the usual one that is often seen near the slide lock from clumsy reassembly after field stripping. Well I guess that cinches it. I will just have to lock this old beast away and find another project gun. Yes, maybe an RIA or a Spartan. I have fond memories of Clark AB . . . . . . :D

[BobOsten]

Don't touch it. It's perfect the way it is! Bob O

[TattooPaul]

Nice A1 there GF! I would leave 'er as is. There's ways to check out if the parts are correct and even if some aren't original but are correct I'd leave it alone. The only way I'd modify it is if it were a junky parts gun that was way off-base. Even then, I'd probably try to find correct parts and make it correct again if the correct original parts were worth it. Nice find! _Paul

[kansas45]

I gotta' go along with everyone else on this one, gfavaron. Leave it alone! I bought a Ria about 3 or 4 weeks ago to play with. It was pretty good out of the box, but I wanted to use it to learn some things about 1911's. The change include a new trigger, sear, disconect, sear spring, beaver tail magwell extension, a new safety & a 20# mainspring. This was a great experience for me & one that I will do again. I shot it today & everything worked like it should. I will lighten the trigger pull a little & dissasimble the pistol & re-blue the parts that need refiished.

[gfavaron]

Well folks, I am profoundly grateful for all the help and advice from you guys - especially from TattooPaul - I realize that in my ignorance, I have stumbled onto something special. What I must do now is figure out what to do with it. I frankly admit to being torn. I am not a collector, but I sure as heck am not going to do anything to reduce the old cannon's historical honesty as an artifact of the American military by messing about with it. (After all, I am pretty much such an artifact myself) I haven't a clue how to offer the piece to the collector community without getting caught up in the gun trader sleaze, and who needs that? I am not especially greedy, and would prefer it go to someone who would appreciate it for what it is - not as some sort of investment. So, I shall just sit on it for a while. Perhaps some of you might have some suggestions or advice?

[mayagrafix]

There is a trading- for sale section right here on this forum. Read the rules and try it out.

[ltdave]

these "experts" dont know anything. :nono:

that old plain jane handgun is worthless. in fact, send me your address and ill get an FFL copy and oh, what say, $50 on the way. ill send it EXPRESS OVERNIGHT in 6 HOURS... :D

just to make sure it doesnt get lost. i hate to pay so much money for an obviously BORING pistol, and i would doubly hate it if that money got lost enroute...

okay, its NOT April Fools Day but DANG that looks like a pretty sweet pistol...

i pretty sure its a Remington-Rand frame because FJA was the inspector for the R-R 'A1s, so unless he inspected Ithacas as well, its a mixmaster. especially if the gentleman got it before Korea...

david

[gfavaron]

Gee Dave - I was about ready to take the old thing out back and bury it to avoid the shame of being seen with it - then the thought of FIFTY WHOLE DOLLARS sorta overcame my loss of dignity. It is not that I am greedy or anything, but I vividly recall Uncle selling them through the NRA in the 1950's for about $30. Now that you folks educated me, I wish I had bought a basket of um. Of course as an E-2 making $86.00 per month at the time, it would have been a very small basket.

Kidding aside, I really don't know what to do with this pistol. It isn't hurting anything in my gun safe, so maybe I should just wait awhile.

I suppose I could hang around these forums and absorb more education, but that would be risky. I could become INFECTED by this COLLECTOR BUG that's floating around which conceivably could EXHAUST my bank account, RUIN my marriage, ANTAGONIZE my tree hugging Brady-loving daughter, and WORSEN my eyesight from all that squinting at photos of old guns.

George

[ltdave]

Kidding aside, I really don't know what to do with this pistol. It isn't hurting anything in my gun safe, so maybe I should just wait awhile.

just hang on to it and enjoy it as an heirloom from your grandfather...

its a great piece...

david

[sprice1973]

I would leave it just the way it is!

[TattooPaul]

George - that barrel is the correct one for that piece. The High Standard's were used for Ithaca's. The grips are not the right ones, but as I messaged you in the recent past, I have some correct Keyes with the correct reinforcing and star stamp and "K" marking. I also have the magazine you would need to get 'er up to spec. I can even ofer help selling it for worthy money wich you could use to get a project gun that is not as correct and valuable as tis one. i can help you find a lesser model that would be a reat refurb project that wouldn't "deface' a true veteran. I'm going to PM you agan here soon with some advice for what it's worth...

[clughog]

The gun is an Ithaca M1911 A1, SN 1888xxx. The grips are unworn, and the overall finish is free from wear or significant scratches. On the left side it is stamped "FJA" near the slide stop plunger, a "P" beneath the mag release,and an illegible mark on the trigger guard. On the right side is stamped the crossed cannon of the ordnance corps, and the number "3" on the trigger guard. The barrel is blue and has no marking on the hood, but has "HS" stamped on the right side of the toggle above the pin, and what appears to be "P" on the left side.i pretty sure its a Remington-Rand frame because FJA was the inspector for the R-R 'A1s, so unless he inspected Ithacas as well, its a mixmaster. especially if the gentleman got it before Korea...
davidDavid, I'm no expert, but I believe that the Frank J. Atwood (FJA) mark is found on Remington Rand and Ithaca 1911A1s (entire production) per http://coolgunsite.com/index.html. Also, the serial number is in the Ithaca range shipped October 4, 1944:

Transportation Officer - Benicia Ordnance Depot - Army Point, Cali.:
ITHACA GUN CO. M1911A1 SHIPPING RECORDS
Serial Numbers 1846004-1890503 (CONTRACT: W-30-115-ORD-553)

http://www.model1911a1.com/Shipping.htm

I think it's all Ithaca and very original!

[ltdave]

it wouldnt be the first time i was wrong...

i didnt know one inspector would cover both companies. i learn something everyday...

thanks for the update...

david

[OD*]

Nice looking pistol. http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

Rick is correct, the stocks are not original to the pistol, they should be plastic, made by Keyes Fiber Co.

You can purchase originals here;
http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=201_262

[John]

Every one should have an original GI pistol in his safe, just for the heck of it.

I would change the grips and take that offer for the magazine and keep it.