Magazine Problem or just a novice

[dmccorki]

New to the world of 1911s. Acquired a 1988 Springfield "Defender"(full size 1911A1 with some factory extras) which appears to have had very little use. Installed new 16lb recoil spring and new firing pin spring. First 250 rounds no problems.
Then problem. My usual approach to loading is to insert fully loaded mag(7shot), pull back the slide and fire away. On inserting the second mag, with the slide being open after the last round from preceeding mag, I hit the slide stop--which is what I do with my Beretta, Glock, Ruger, etc. Most often I am getting a "jam"(not sure of correct decription even after reading all the informative posts) with the first round. It is quite difficult to get the jammed round out of the gun between holding the slide back, trying to loosen the round, etc.
If I load the second mag with the slide closed and manual pull it back and release it, everything works fine.
"Experts" at my range tell me I should not use the slide stop to start the first round in the mag in a 1911. That does not sound logical to me, but as noted I am new to 1911s.
Even though the first 250 rounds were trouble free,I sense I may need new magazine springs, or completely new mags. The magazines feel very tight when they pass the magazine catch but again that may be normal.
All thoughts welcomed.

[Tom]

It sounds odd that the first 250 rounds, which is 35+ magazines, without a problem, and now you're seeing the problem consistently with every first round of the magazine.

How many magazines do you have, first of all?

Second, if you thoroughly clean the pistol, including the extractor and extractor tunnel, and try again, do you still have the problem?

[wichaka]

Using the slide stop is an acceptable way to release the slide.

Next time the gun 'jams' in this way.......post a pic of it, so we'll be able to see what position the bullet is in.

Or just describe in detail the position of the bullet.

[dmccorki]

I have just the two original magazines that came in the original box which came with the gun.

I see if I can duplicate the problem at home and take a picture.

[1911Tuner]

Using the slide stop is an acceptable way to release the slide.

Exactly. If it weren't meant to be used as a slide release, it wouldn't have a thumb pad designed to allow it to be used for that...complete with checkering or serrations.

Seems that there are too many "experts" who have never taken the time to look at various features of the gun and figure it out. Sometimes it's tricky to determine the designer's true intent...but this one is a slam-dunk. If the gun won't reliably chamber a round using the slidestop to release the slide, it's only a matter of time before it fails via other methods...and ya just can't trust a snake like that.

[John]

Can the problem of the first round getting stuck on the frame's feed ramp be due to overly tight magazines? Too strong a mag spring, since these mags are new?

[1911Tuner]

Can the problem of the first round getting stuck on the frame's feed ramp be due to overly tight magazines? Too strong a mag spring, since these mags are new?


While the two most likely points to have a feed-related problem are the top round in a full mag from slidelock, and the last round...because of maximum/minimum tension...if the gun is consistently balky with an 11-pound mag spring, there's likely another issue in play. Could be the feed ramp angle...Could be extractor setup...could be breechface angle...or a combination of the above.

[dmccorki]

A few additional facts.

First, thanks for confirming I am not too out of touch in using the slide stop to release the slide! Maybe my 40 plus year old knowledge is not totally out of date.

Tom, the gun has been cleaned a number of times but I have not made an effort to clean the extractor tunnel. My manual does not tell me how to do that but I am sure I can find instructions on this forum.

John, the magazines are not new. I believe they are the original mags that came with the gun. They are marked "SA 45NM" on the thin welded bottom.

The problem does not happen everytime--maybe 50% of the time recently.
I tried to duplicate the "jam" at home so I could take a picture, but, of course, after 10 attempts of releasing the slide by using the slide stop, the top round fed without any difficulty. The gun was cold with all these attempts. I do not know whether the heat generated by firing has any effect.

I will have to take the gun to the range with my camera to try to get a picture but that may be a challenge since the NRA headquarters range is not into photo ops on its live range.

[robot1911]

If you tried 10 times to create the jam, how badly were the top rounds pushed back into the case?

Bob

[dmccorki]

Bob
Sorry but I do not understand your question.

Magazine was fully loaded as normal. I used an empty mag to hold back the slide, removed the empty mag, inserted the fully loaded mag and released the slide stop. Everything worked as it should. After each attempt to cause a jam, I removed the mag with the remaining six rounds, ejected the loaded round, inserted it into the top of the mag and tried again.
I have not been able to find any pictures to go with the various malfunction posts on the forum but when I have a problem, the nose of the round gets caught on the feed ramp/throat area and back of the round is pressed by the lower part of the breach.
Doug

[robot1911]

Usually when failure to feed occurs, the nose of the round smacks the frame feed ramp hard and it'll usually push the bullet back into the case with each loading try. Doesn't take much of that until pressure builds up and firing that particular round becomes dangerous.

[John]

What Robot said, make sure that you compare the rounds that you used to test the pistol as far as their overall length is concerned.

We'll have to wait for more details about the problem in order to diagnose it.

[dmccorki]

Thanks for the education and safety tip.
I measured the rounds I used to do the home test mentioned earlier. I do see that one round is slightly shorter--I do not have instruments to measure exactly, but using what I have, it is about 1/32 of an inch(about the thickness of the base of the case) shorter. This must have been the top round that I kept ejecting and returning to the top of the magazine.
Is that reduction in size enough to make the round dangerous? I will discard it, but I am interested in your thoughts for my continuing education.

I will go to the range today and see if it "jams" and try to take a picture.

[John]

I do not think so, I've fired some which were a bit shorter than that, but since I do not have any way of knowing your particular pistol, I would say it's cheap insurance to get rid of it.

[dmccorki]

Yes, will discard. Cleaned the extractor and its tunnel as Tom suggested, although they were both very clean. NRA folks said they have range officer help with picture taking if it jams again. So off to the range in a few hours and will report results.

[dmccorki]

Back from the range. First two magazines loaded with no problems when I hit the slide stop and all rounds fired successfully. Third magazine loaded successfully, but the second round "jammed". This was my first attempt at a picture:
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s85/dhmccorki/springfield1911007.jpg
This jam was much easier to fix by simply pulling back the slide--earlier jams noted above would not eject by pulling back the slide.
Next magazine loaded and fired without difficulty.
Fifth magazine first round jammed when the slide stop was released--the original problem. Again, it was much easier to fix by simply pulling back the slide. Here are some close ups.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s85/dhmccorki/springfield1911011.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s85/dhmccorki/springfield1911008.jpg
Hope all this makes sense and helps to explain the problem.

[jazor]

I have had jams like that happen to me. Wichaka was with me and we figured it was the first round in the loaded mag coming forward in the mag. We were at a shoot and the Springfield LW I was using worked great all day until the last mag change.

The top round had come forward in the mag just a little bit and jammed the pistol up good. It took both of us to get the slide free.

Just my two cents, don't know if i am right.

[John]

OK, two things to try out. First, when you load the magazines, make sure you slam their back a little on your palm so that all rounds are as far backwards as possilble.

Second, are the mags with which the problem occurs consistent? In other words, do they always cause problems? If so it's a magazine issue, but from what I see in those pictures, it looks to me that the rim of the cartridge is not entering under the extractor claw. Have you checked the extractor tension? Read the article in the Technical Issues forum and do what it suggests. Then try the pistol out with the magazines that created the problem.

[dmccorki]

Thanks.
The ejector passes the Bill Martin "shake test" as described in the Technical Forum so I assume the tension is ok.
I only have the two original mags that came in the original box with the gun. I will tap with my hand as suggested(that worked on a similar problem with Ruger Mark III mags that were brand new).

[John]

You mean the extractor passed the test, I assume. Careful, the round shouldn't be held there too rigidly, just enough to not let it drop off. It should droop down a little, that's normal. Also, how is the shape of your extractor claw? Show us a picture from the bottom of the slide. Maybe there is a sharp corner there, which combined with slightly excessive tension stop the rim from going under the claw.

[dmccorki]

John, here are my attempts at picture of extractor. Could not get the camera to focus close enough but I did not see anything out of the ordinary.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s85/dhmccorki/springfield1911013.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s85/dhmccorki/springfield1911012.jpg

Bought a couple of Wilson 47D magazines on sale at a local gun show, so depending upon your thoughts on the extractor, maybe I can try a selection of magazines at the range on Monday and see what happens.

[Ten_Ring]

It looks as if the extractor may be too tight.

[robot1911]

At this point, I'd remove the extractor, fully load one of those mags that came with the pistol, and see if it'll feed that top round. You might want to leave the firing pin out also...don't need any AD's!

Bob

[1911Tuner]

At this point, I'd remove the extractor, fully load one of those mags that came with the pistol, and see if it'll feed that top round.


Bingo...and I'm bettin' that it will. From where I stand, it looks like the extractor is sittin' too close to the breechface centerline/too much of the tensioning wall exposed past the breechface guide rails. A bevel on the bottom edge may provide the cure.

EDIT TO ADD:

Bob...Go back and look close. Is the extractor "clocked" in the channel? Looks like it to me...Or are my eyes gettin' older than I think they are?

[robot1911]

Johnny, I don't think it's clocked, and it looks a bit like it's been tuned to me. Can't really tell if it's resting too far inboard or if the tension is wrong, but maybe he'll find out shortly.
From the looks of the pics, I don't think the base of the case really got to the height of the extractor when it jammed. The rim is still well below the FP hole.
I'd like to see a picture of the extractor claw and a pic of the whole extractor so we can guess how much the shaft is bent.

Bob

[1911Tuner]

I don't think the base of the case really got to the height of the extractor when it jammed. The rim is still well below the FP hole.

That's why I feel like the front pad is positioning the claw too far inboard. The rim hit the bottom corner of the tensioning wall and stopped.

I swear! It still looks like it's rotated in the channel a little. I gotta go see the eye doc soon...

[robot1911]

Well, I put a big glass on that pic and it still looks square to me. But then, these coke-bottle lenses I wear could be lying to me...again!
It does look like the lug isn't holding the extractor outboard enough though.

Bob

[dmccorki]

All, as a novice I am not sure I know what to look for to answer your inquiries. I can remove the extractor and take a picture of it if you think that would be of use.

Bob, re removing the extractor and testing the ability to load the top round, I noted in an earlier post above that I ran ten original magazines thru the gun loading each top round by releasing the slide stop. Everything worked perfectly. I ejected each loaded round, reinserted it in the top of the magazine and reloaded. I could not get a failure. Would removing the extractor provide a different result?

In total I have now run about 280 rounds thru the gun. I have had 4 failures to load the top round when releasing the slide stop. No failures when I load by pulling back the slide and releasing manually. One second round failure.

[robot1911]

Well now, I reckin removing the extractor wouldn't result in any different action than running those 10 mags full and getting no failures. It sounds like the extractor isn't at fault; however, if you continually loaded the same round and it shortened by, as I believe you said, 1/32", that in itself could be an indicator. It may not feed with the longer rounds but will with that one short one. Have you tried that?

What sort of followers are in those 2 magazines? Plastic, metal, and when fully loaded does the top round tip downward when you press on the nose of the bullet?

I'll have to go back and read this whole thread to get caught up.

Bob

[robot1911]

Went back and read the whole thread. One unanswered question...what kind of ammo are you using? Ball, Wadcutter, factory, handloads?

Bob

[dmccorki]

Bob
Thanks for your interest.
The ammo is Winchester white box 230gr FMJ.
The follower on the mag is metal--standard mag right out of the box for a 1988 Springfield 1911A1 "Defender", which was a standard full size with some factory upgrades-sights, lowered ejection port, etc.
When I fill the mag, I can push the nose of the top round down--looks like about a 1/4 of an inch.
Doug

[dmccorki]

Bob
Forgot to mention that the shortened round fed with no problems but so did full size rounds when I went to the range after my exchange with John. I discarded the shorten round without firing it. On that range visit everything worked fine for two magazines, then failure on second round of third mag, then fourth mag ok, then finally first round failure on fifth mag.
My first 1911 has certainly been a learning experience but it is interesting to be educated about something other than trying to shoot 1" groups!

[robot1911]

1/4" deflection is too much. I think your mag springs are weak and allowing that top round or two to hit the feed ramp too low. See if you can borrow a Metalform mag and give it a try. The follower in those mags resists the nose-tipping due to its construction.

Bob

[dmccorki]

Bob
Could not find any person who has a Metalform magazine. Went to a large gun show being held locally and also had no luck.
The Metalform web site indicates that it makes the mags with 3 followers--flat, round and orange plastic. Were you suggesting a particular type of follower?
Fyi, I loaded a new Wilson 47D mag and it too permitted me to depress the tip of the top round by about 1/4".
Doug

[robot1911]

I was hoping one of your shooting buddys would have a Metalform...oh well. The follower I've had the best luck with is the rounded one from Metalform. It also has a steel guide in the front that helps it stay put rather than being deflected down.
I've never liked those Wilson 47D mags, though others prefer them.

Any of your friends have any old military-style mags? With the tapered lips and the button on the follower? Thse will tell the tale as to whether your mags are any good and/or are timed right for release.

BTW....Johnny. I took a long look at that extractor this morning and I agree with you...it appears that the lug is not keeping the extractor outboard enough. That would sure cause the round to strike the left side guide and hang up.

Bob

[1911Tuner]

I took a long look at that extractor this morning and I agree with you...it appears that the lug is not keeping the extractor outboard enough. That would sure cause the round to strike the left side guide and hang up.

Yep. I think that's where the bug is nestin', Bob. All of my 7-round magazines will let the top two rounds nose-down a little...though not a quarter-inch...and they all work fine in...MY...pistols. Wadcutter, tapered hardball-type, and Colt design "Hybrid"...they all work.

Doug...Remove the extractor and measure the thickness/diameter of the stem at the front pad. If it's much less than about .130 inch, that's probably what is causing your problem. If the dimension falls between .130 and .135 inch, you may have a mislocated or angled channel.

[jn316]

Well, I put a big glass on that pic and it still looks square to me. But then, these coke-bottle lenses I wear could be lying to me...again!
It does look like the lug isn't holding the extractor outboard enough though.

Bob
Is it me or is that extractor sticking out further than nomal?
Sal

[1911Tuner]

Is it me or is that extractor sticking out further than nomal?

Bingo! Give the man a big see-gar!

[dmccorki]

Johnny,
Hate to be a novice, but that is what I am. Here are two pictures of the extractor. I am not sure where you want me to measure and whether I have the correct tools, but the width of the thinnest part looking from the top down is about 1/16th+of an inch, or about 2mm. The top of the extractor is flat all the way to the "hook" or whatever the correct term is for that part that catches the rear of the brass(sorry for lack of knowledge). On the other hand, the underside of the opening for the hook is beveled to about 1/32th of an inch. Also the front edge is slightly beveled on the inside.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s85/dhmccorki/springfield1911014.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s85/dhmccorki/springfield1911015.jpg

Appreciate all the help everyone is trying to provide.

[1911Tuner]

Johnny,
Hate to be a novice, but that is what I am

Notta problemo, lad. Nobody was born knowin' it. ;)

Measure the thickness of the front pad...just behind the hook. That's the feature that locates the hook and the tensioning wall relative to the breechface centerline.
If the pad is too small, the hook and the wall move further inboard...closer to the centerline. If it's positioned too far inboard, it can cause problems with case rim pickup.

Measure the thickness...not the width.

[dmccorki]

Hope I understand. Looking from the top down it measures about 1/8 inch or slightly over 4mm. It is beveled or rounded on the inside--closest to the firing pin--and it is also slightly beveled on the outside top and bottom edges.
If by thickness you mean a side view, then it is about 5/32s thick.

[1911Tuner]

Looking from down it measures about 1/8 inch or slightly over

Can't help ya with "about" dimensions. Gotta have a dimension within a thousandth of an inch.

[dmccorki]

Sorry, I do not have tools for such measurements at home. I will try the folks in my office tomorrow to see if anyone has the correct instruments.

[dmccorki]

Johnny,
If the folks at the office know how to use an outside micrometer, they say the thickness is .1365. The main scale showed .125+ and they added the thimble distance of 115 to come up with the .1365 result.
doug

[1911Tuner]

If the folks at the office know how to use an outside micrometer, they say the thickness is .1365.

It's well within spec. Looks like the problem is the channel.

[dmccorki]

That does not sound like an easy fix.

By the way I tried the Wilson 47D mags. They were hard to seat with the slide closed--I did not want to force them. After a few uses, they worked fine with no feeding problems. I switched to one of the original SA mags and had two first round failures out of four attempts. No other feeding problems, but these failures to feed were "jams" in my mind since I could not cure the problem by just pulling back the slide. I had to lock the slide back and remove the round by moving it back and forth with my finger.
All of this may be coincidental since I ran close to 300 rounds thru the original mags with failures only in recent times. But 2 out of 4 is not very encouraging.

[1911Tuner]

That does not sound like an easy fix.

As long as the channel is simply angled and not located too far to the right straight line...it's not as bad as you might think. Both Brown Hardcore and Wilson Bulletproof extractors have slightly oversized front pads that allow you a little leeway in locating the hook relative to the slide's centerline. Check to make sure that yours isn't clocked...rotated counter-clockwise viewed from the rear.

[dmccorki]

It does not appear to be clocked--at least not to the eye. I am not sure I know how to measure for any clocking.

[1911Tuner]

I am not sure I know how to measure for any clocking.

It's an eyeball thing. If the flat at the rear is aligned with the slide flat, it isn't clocked...but a clocked extractor won't be turned much...even to the max.

[dmccorki]

Johnny,
Just an update.
Been using American Eagle with no problems--old original SA mags(did not put in new springs so I could compare results with Wilson 47ds), new Wilson 47ds and some borrowed(who knows) mags--everything works.
Assume it was not ammo related--Winchester WB or the Remington UMC--so maybe I am just lucky.

[PaulBera]

Load it with 1 less round and try it and see what happens. If it holds 7 rounds load it with 6 etc.

[dmccorki]

Paul,
Thanks for the thoughts. It works with 7, 6 and even 1. As you can see from this post, I had some challenges early on but now everything is working without any difficulties. Sort of takes the fun out of it ;)

[gfavaron]

This has been a great string to follow - just the kind of thing I had hoped this forum would do. You folks are just plain super! Worth every penny it cost me to join!