EGW firing pin stop problem?!?

[baldessariclan]

After reading the "Amazing reduction in recoil..." thread in the gunsmithing sticky threads section a while back, decided to buy a couple of the EGW oversized firing pin stops and give them a try. My extractor was also a little loose -- could rotate a little -- so wanted tighten that up as well.

Here's the radius I ended up w/ on the firing pin stop:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/baldessariclan/temp009.jpg

Took it to the range and put about 150 rounds through it -- mostly 230 gr. Winchester hardball ammo, plus a few 185 gr. Remington hollowpoints. Near the end of the firing session, had a 2 round full auto burst ( !!! ). Scary! Shot a few more rounds w/ no other ill effects and went home.

On attempting to disassemble the gun, found that I could not get the hammer pin to drop free (it normally just about falls out). Using a light hammer and punch, was able to coax it out of the hole. Became quickly obvious that it was slightly bent ( ! ):

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/baldessariclan/temp006.jpg

I'm not sure if the full auto episode and bent hammer pin are related -- it's never had either problem before. I'm aware that the smaller radius on the firing pin stop will cause a larger load to be applied to the hammer pin, but hadn't heard of any problems with this (yet). So now I'm a little scared / worried about this mod...

The gun is a Springfield Mil-Spec, unmodified / stock parts, except for the firing pin stop. Actually, the hammer pin was a replacement from Wilson combat (lost the original, ordered new one, then found original pin again later) -- Brownell's part no. 965-315-101. The gun does have the ILS system (w/ heavier mainspring -- 28 lbs.?).

So am now wondering if this mod (small radius firing pin stop) is such a good idea w/ guns using a heavy mainspring? Or maybe I just had a soft hammer pin? And what about the full auto burst?!?

For now, I've got the original (large radius) firing pin stop back in place along with the original hammer pin. May send it back to Springfield to have them check out the auto firing problem. What do you guys think???

--John

[1911Tuner]

That's what happens when they let the bean counters override the engineers and decide that substandard steels are "just as good' as what the print specs call for. If you send it back to Springfield, you'll get another one just like that one. Order one from the Colt factory section in Brownells catalog so you can get a real pin.

[robot1911]

That pin shows a LOT more wear evidence than it should...unless you've already ran 30,000 rounds through it. I think you just had a soft pin.

Bob

[baldessariclan]

Actually, the pin is a "Wilson combat" part ordered from Brownells (see above), not the original Springfield pin that came with the gun. The Wilson pin shown in the picture has only had a few hundred rounds put on it (and only about 150 w/ the small radius firing pin stop -- that's when it bent). In any case, sounds like I want to stay away from Wilsons and other aftermarket pins... I'll go ahead and order the Colt pin per your sugestion.

As for the other "little" problem, could the bent pin have had anything to do w/ the full auto firing episode? And could this have altered / damaged the sear / hammer? Even w/ the original (unbent) Springfield pin in place, the trigger pull seems a lot lighter than it used to -- makes me nervous!

--John

[robot1911]

I doubt the pin caused the double you experienced. If your trigger pull seems lighter than usual, I'd have someone take a look at it.

Bob

[wichaka]

The double is was caused by the firing parts group.........something a miss in there.

[John]

That pin has only a few hundred rounds through it???? And where did all those scratches came from????

[baldessariclan]

Yeah, the pin has maybe 600 rounds on it. The bend only occurred during the last shooting session w/ the small radius firing stop pin installed -- about 150 rounds. Originally, that pin always practically fell right out when disassembling the gun, but I had to use a small hammer and punch to drive it out after the last session. The scratches look even worse because that shot was taken with a flash. Here's one without the flash:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/baldessariclan/temp003.jpg

Still pretty beat up -- it must be pretty soft stuff. The original hammer pin that came out of the gun isn't anywhere near that bad looking. I will order a genuine Colt hammer pin to replace it this time, per the advice of 1911Tuner (thank you!).

I looked at the "hooks" on the hammer, and they may be rounding off a little as well ( ? ). Tried to take a picture of it:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/baldessariclan/hammer002.jpg

Can't get a good image this close w/ my camera (heck, can't even see it too well with my own eyes), but I can feel a little burr just above them. Trigger pull is much easier, gun let off a full auto two round burst at end of last session -- Hmmm... I think that I'd better get it looked at, like you all are advising.

--John

[garrettwc]

Big +1 on getting it looked at. That pin and those hammer hooks don't look right. You are definitely getting some bad wear from some where. Time to have an expert check the specs on the entire fire control group.

[1911Tuner]

Definitely bad JuJu. The small radius does put extra stress on the pin, but a good pin wouldn't have bent like that, no mattery what the radius. I've used it on all my pistols for tens of thousands of rounds without a single problem.

That hammer pin...Did it come from the "Wilson Valu-Line" list of parts?
Sometimes what is cheap can turn out to be very expensive.

[Bud White]

I've Never seen a pin bend like that

Bad heattreating ? Or just a Bad Part?

I saw it was a wilson but Still

Whats the Sear look like?

[wichaka]

Tuner.....did ya look at the hammer pic closely? Look where the pin goes......all those grooves in the hole!!!!! OUCH!

That's one rough looking hammer pin hole!

Look at the pin again as well.......see the where it's wore down the pin where the hammer rides. There's actually material missing, shaved down a .001 or more......

Whatcha think?

problem is, you take out the roughness on the hammer, it'll make the hole to large. Not sure if one could find an oversized pin that large......me thinks another hammer is in the future......as well as a pin. But that goes without saying........

[Bud White]

I see it now that you said something the stuff in the hammer is rough

[John]

And the hammer hooks look rounded.

[1911Tuner]

Pin: Leaded, free-machining steel...likely cold-rolled. Hammer: Improperly sintered/soft. Pin bends under the stresses, resulting in interference-fit between hammer's pin hole and pin, and both eat away at one another. Hope the holes in the frame are okay.
Might wanna check'em for round.

If the pin came from Wilson's Valu-Line, please understand that in all liklihood, those parts are intended to be installed in wall-hangers that will never actually be used. As for the hammer...well...that MIM is good stuff. I know, because somebody on an internet gun forum said so!

Truthfully...some MIM is good. Some MIM is no better than pot metal. All MIM is not created equal.

Like the man said:

"Your equipment is supplied by the lowest bidder."

Welcome to the world of modern manufacturing.


I think Brownells also lists a Colt hammer in the factory parts section. They're blanked from ordnance steel and heat-treated after finish-machining.
Good hammers.

[baldessariclan]

When I first got the gun and learned how to take it apart, I managed to lose the hammer pin. I accidentally brushed it off the workbench and it bounced off across the concrete floor, not to be seen again (until a couple months later -- grrr!). Upon relaying my tale of woe to a friend at work, yet another friend overhead and said that he had a Brownell's catalog in his desk, so we searched it over lunch and I bought a replacement pin set over the internet. Here's the pin set / part number from out of the current catalog:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/baldessariclan/pins003.jpg

And here's the package that showed up in the mail:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/baldessariclan/pins004.jpg

I later found the original hammer pin while cleaning the workroom floor, but never bothered to replace it -- kept on using the Wilson pin that I had put in earlier. To tell the truth, never really noticed any appreciable wear on it (never caught my attention, anyways) until I had to drive it out after the last shooting session. Then it was pretty obvious that it was bent / messed up.

While the hammer may also be soft / rounding off, the edge on the sear seems to be as sharp / hard as ever -- can't spot any obvious wear there (to the untrained eye, anyways). The holes in the frame seem to be ok (upon visual inspection) as well.

I'm torn between sending the gun back in to Springfield (under warranty) to get it "fixed", or buying all the good (Colt?) replacement parts (pins, hammer, sear, disconnector?) and then trying to find a trustworthy gunsmith to correctly fit them. Any suggestions? This Springfield was really originally intended to be kind of a "learning gun" -- my first .45. Wouldn't mind paying the extra $$$ for a good Colt government someday when I know what to look for (or look OUT for!). Thanks again for all the help -- I really enjoy and learn a lot from this forum!

--John

[jn316]

Send it back to SA and let them fix it!!!!!!

[John]

Send it back to SA and let them fix it!!!!!!

Excellent advise. Send a gun which has been modified with non-Springfield parts, by the onwer and ask Springfield to fix it?

[wichaka]

The problem with sending it back, is all you'll get is new cheap junk put back in.

I'd get some better quality parts and do it myself........save headache in the long run.

Worked on a well known brand of 1911 awhile ago, and found that their hammer & sear pins were MIM but made with pot metal junk thrown in.

Just because it says MIM, doesn't mean that the quality of metal that they use is going to be any good. UGH!

[jn316]

Your right John my bad

[saltydog]

Whatever you do, please post the results.

[Lubaloy]

wichika,
What makes you think the pins were mim?
Did they have a sprue or ejector mark?
As far as I know, pins are still produced more economically by conventional processes.
Screw machines, to be specific.

[1911Tuner]

As far as I know, pins are still produced more economically by conventional processes.
Screw machines, to be specific.

Yup. Davenports, most likely.

Much is made of the term "Machined from barstock" but please note that doesn't guarantee a good part any more than MIM guarantees a bad part. All steel isn't created equal, and if you get a hammer pin made from free-machining cold-rolled steel, it probably won't last a hundred rounds. A guy that I know from the range built up a Frankengun using a pin kit. The mainspring housing pin broke in half at the groove on the 3rd magazine. He ordered a pin from the Valu-Line to replace it...and it lasted for 5 magazines. I was finished up for the day, so I knocked a Colt pin out of one of my pistols and installed it for him. It's still there over 2 years later.

[Spindly61]

E.G.W. makes a nice pin set that I currently have in my Milspec. They are easy to find,right up on the top of the page as a sponsor. You can but with confidence from E.G.W. Just my opinion,hope it works out for you.

[auto45]

I'd return the pin set at least.

[George Smith]

Thanks for the Kind words Rich,

We found espically on sear pins on ser 80 guns (ser 80 with the cut out on the right side for the levers are more prone to bending)
and Para frames (often the ms hsng pins are mis aligned and only one side is weight bearing. the pins break in the middle and sometimes stay in place but are still broken)

turns out most of the pins are Leaded steel as mentioned by Tuner for fast easy machining. and as with most fast easy things there not very good.
they are than case hardened. if you thing you have one, take a pair of wire cutters out and cut the sear pin in half. Fist the fact that you can cut it in half says not so good, than you look close the case will crack as you cut them up.

For destructive testing we put the pin in a vise and hit them with hammers too :D bevause that is what we do here. You will see a soft core and hard shell like an M&Ms and only slightly tougher.

Our campaign a couple years back was to make pin sets from Drill rod for all the reasons stated above AND becuse the plunger pin ends mushroom using the leaded pin sets too.

The photo pin may not have been heat treated either?? but bent hammer pins have not been a problem.

THe drill rod sets are made in CNC Swiss screw machines (base sticker about 180K) and the majority of leaded pins come from one shop in the south using B&S cam screw machines that are older. (much)

hope this helps
geo

[OD*]

Thank you for the informative post George, we appreciate your participation on the board.

[A.B.]

turns out most of the pins are Leaded steel

Almost fell out of my chair when I saw the photos. OK. I've been on another planet for twenty years, I guess. Wouldn't use leaded steel in (high stress) manufacturing, let alone firearms!

Your very right, nothing wrong with either cast or MIM, per se, as techniques.

[1911Tuner]

Since we've gotten George's atention on this one, my advice is to order a pin set and a new hammer and sear from him and be done with it. I've never seen junk come from his shop.

George...Are you cuttin' mainspring cap and ejector pins from drill rod, too?
If so...me want a few. I ordered half-dozen ejector pins from the Colt catalog...and when they arrived...they were (expletive deleted) roll pins.

[Unclenick]

You all will laugh at me, but I got so fed up with ill-fitting and badly heat treated pins in the early 80's, I started started turning my own from O-1 drill rod. Quenched and drawn back at about 800 degrees, they seem to hold up forever. Kind of time consuming, though.

I fit three EGW firing pin stops on guns last fall; two full-size 1911's and one Commander. My first experience with them. These were among a group of us doing some shooting and experimenting for a week up in Maine. We were all surprised, watching one another from adjacent firing points, to see how much muzzle flip was reduced using them. Quite an aid to getting back on target!

Nick

[lincoln county law]

While a Davenport is quite fun to set up,a pin of this type would be a whiz-bang on a B&S #00. I figure about 3000 pieces an hour, with down time. If they are made on machines as old as George indicates, I'm guessing a model #00G. I can almost smell the dark cutting oil just thinking of them. That steel is likely 12L14. People who run this stuff don't even know what a dull cutting tool IS. Sorry to get off topic.

[lancer1558]

Springfield's sear is made of "soft" MIM. You may want to consider replacing your sear as well. I had a similar situation with a Springfield Milspec and did replace the sear, hammer, disconnector, sear spring, recoil spring and pins. This corrected the problem I had with my Milspec.
I am not a fan of either Wilson or Springfield internal parts, there are a number of other manufacturers out there who offer quality parts.
Gary

[baldessariclan]

Sorry for the late reply -- lots of pans in the fire w/ the wife, kids, work, etc. -- no rest for the wicked... :-)

I finally sent the gun back in to Springfield for servicing (warranty), BUT also ordered the pin set from EGW. There were no Colt spur hammers available from Brownells currently. And I don't care much for the skeletonized ones. So guess we'll see what Springfield sends back and how it works out. Thanks again to everybody for all the advice / help!

--John