My New Kimber

[DemoMan]

Hi all,

I've purchased a Kimber Stainless TLE II a few weeks back (picutures available in the images forum!) and overall I've been very happy with it. I've put just over 500 rounds through it, mostly typical range ammo (some Winchester, some Magtech, etc.) and a few rounds of Golden Sabre.

I was all set to report how I had 0 problems during break-in....but today's trip to the range unfortunately included my first problem.

Twice while about two or three rounds into a magazine, the slide would come forward and pick up a round, but though the hammer was cocked and saftey off, pulling the trigger did nothing. The first time it happened I attempted to clear the weapon. I dropped the magazine and tried to bring the slide back...but it would not move. I finally asked one of the range personnel to take a look at it and he applied more pressure and brought the slide back, ejecting the unfired round. I didn't want to put that much pressure on my new baby! A few moments later the same problem happened and this time I was just cycled the slide and kept firing.

A few other things that may be important:

1) This was after firing just over 100 rounds, so the weapon was definitely dirty and warming up.
2) I was using a new magazine, an 8 rounder from Chip McCormick in addition to my standard 7 round magazine. I am sure that the first time it happened, the new magazine was in the weapon. I'm not sure about the second time.
3) This was the first time I used Magtech and I'm not sure how good the rounds are. I looked over the round that was ejected the first time I had the problem and there was a small notch with slightly raised edges on the nose, right at the edge of the casing. I later fired that round with no problem.
4) I've cleaned and lubricated every 150-200 rounds but I have not detail-stripped the weapon yet.

The part that puzzles me is that it apparently chambered the round but would not fire. Is that an indication that the round did not cleanly enter the chamber?

Thanks for your thoughts,

Doug

[Walver]

I would suspect the new magazine, you may have to do some more shooting and watch the magazines. Right now there is not much you can due without further observation. I put my money on that CMM, although I have had good service with CMM.
Walt

[John]

Why it didn't fire, is probably because the slide was not all the way forward. As a result either the disconnector hadn't pop up behind the sear (so the trigger wouldn't release the sear from the hammer) or maybe the firing pin safety used in the Kimbers didn't disengage to allow firing (I am not familiar with Kimbers layout at this area).

Now the question is what exactly happened. So I would suggest that you fire your weapon some more and if the stoppage occurs, take you finger off the trigger and study the gun. Check if the slide is fully forward. If not, can it be pushed to the fully forward position by applying slight pressure at the rear of the slide? If no, check inside the ejection port. Can you see exactly where the round is? Is the rear of the round under the extractor? Is the front of the round inside the chamber (I assume it is). Also make sure you mark your magazines, so that you can definitely tell if the stoppage occurs with one magazine or with more. Finally this pistol has an internal or an external extractor?

Waiting to hear back from you.

[DemoMan]

I would suspect the new magazine, you may have to do some more shooting and watch the magazines. Right now there is not much you can due without further observation. I put my money on that CMM, although I have had good service with CMM.

Thanks, Walver. I'm inclined to agree with you since it is one of the things that was different from my previous range sessions. The only other one is the MagTech ammo.

One thing I notice is that the magazine wiggles a little inside the well. Not much, but I can move it a bit side-to-side with my fingertip. The Kimber magazine sits as still as a rock. I'm sure I got the right magazine size becuase they tried to give me one for a smaller weapon at first. That one would slide in but not feed at all! I didn't report it before because that was definitely not the gun's fault.

Why it didn't fire, is probably because the slide was not all the way forward. As a result either the disconnector hadn't pop up behind the sear (so the trigger wouldn't release the sear from the hammer) or maybe the firing pin safety used in the Kimbers didn't disengage to allow firing (I am not familiar with Kimbers layout at this area).

Thanks, John. That makes sense to me, since the slide was forward and a round in the chamber there had to be something preventing it from firing.


Now the question is what exactly happened. So I would suggest that you fire your weapon some more and if the stoppage occurs, take you finger off the trigger and study the gun. Check if the slide is fully forward. If not, can it be pushed to the fully forward position by applying slight pressure at the rear of the slide? If no, check inside the ejection port. Can you see exactly where the round is? Is the rear of the round under the extractor? Is the front of the round inside the chamber (I assume it is).

I hope to go to the local outdoor range this weekend, weather permitting. I'll definitely see if I can recreate the problem and go through your checklist.


Also make sure you mark your magazines, so that you can definitely tell if the stoppage occurs with one magazine or with more. Finally this pistol has an internal or an external extractor?


Marking the magazine is taken care of -- I added a footer to the the 8 rounder so I'll definitely know which one is in the gun when (if?) it has a problem. I'm thinking of taking a camera too just in case.

This has the external extractor. So far I've had no problems with it extracting rounds. Apparrently I should have waited a few months though and gotten one of the new guys with an internal extractor!


Waiting to hear back from you.

Thanks, guys. I'm very impressed by how helpful everyone is on this forum!

[Walver]

DemoMan, don't worry about the external extractor, they work too. If it is a problem Kimber is swapping out the slids if you complain. If it does not give problems, don't worry about it. John is an expert, so he is giving you the advice you need. Have fun shooting!
Walt

[TattooPaul]

Have you adjusted the set-screw on the trigger at all in an attempt to limit over-travel or perhaps recoil forces have allowed it to move out of proper adjustment (maybe lube got in and allowed it to loosen)? These can prevent the trigger from releasing the sear spring if out of whack sufficiently. This would be a more consistent issue, though, not too intermittent once it's out of whack.

Just brainstorming... _Paul

[DemoMan]

DemoMan, don't worry about the external extractor, they work too. If it is a problem Kimber is swapping out the slids if you complain. If it does not give problems, don't worry about it. John is an expert, so he is giving you the advice you need. Have fun shooting!
Walt

Oh I know. I was just laughing at myself because this sort of thing (Kimber upgrading their extractors right after I bought one) happens to me all the time. You're right, as long as the extractor is working for me I won't worry about it.

Have you adjusted the set-screw on the trigger at all in an attempt to limit over-travel or perhaps recoil forces have allowed it to move out of proper adjustment (maybe lube got in and allowed it to loosen)? These can prevent the trigger from releasing the sear spring if out of whack sufficiently. This would be a more consistent issue, though, not too intermittent once it's out of whack.

Just brainstorming... _Paul

I haven't touched the set screw (in fact I'm not sure where it even is!). Other than field-stripping and cleaning her, I have not done anything to the pistol. Having said that, it's certainly possible that it was loose and is getting looser.

The problem is intermittent though. My main worry about going to the range this weekend is that I won't see the problem and so won't be able to predict when or if it will happen again. My second worry is that I'll see the problem but it won't be magazine-related.

I'm probably getting all worried over nothing. It bears watching though and I appreciate everyone's thoughts on it!

[TattooPaul]

In II Series Kimbers, the grip safety must FULLY push the disconnector to the firing pin block (not firing pin stop!) out of the way of the firing pin before it will move forward and strike the primer. It could be from an inconsistent grasp of the grip safety, though not likely. With a Swartz equiped pistol, the firing pin will not move forward unless the grip safety fully pushes the block upward fully. Check all the components related to the Swartz. If you ever depressed the grip safety while putting the slide back on after cleaning you may have bent the little piece that extends up from the reciever and presses on the firing pin block and it may not be consistently releasing the firing pin. Otherwise the grip safety may need better/revised fitting to make sure it is fully pushing the block up each time. Just more brainstorming...

[DemoMan]

In II Series Kimbers, the grip safety must FULLY push the disconnector to the firing pin block (not firing pin stop!) out of the way of the firing pin before it will move forward and strike the primer. It could be from an inconsistent grasp of the grip safety, though not likely. With a Swartz equiped pistol, the firing pin will not move forward unless the grip safety fully pushes the block upward fully. Check all the components related to the Swartz. If you ever depressed the grip safety while putting the slide back on after cleaning you may have bent the little piece that extends up from the reciever and presses on the firing pin block and it may not be consistently releasing the firing pin. Otherwise the grip safety may need better/revised fitting to make sure it is fully pushing the block up each time. Just more brainstorming...

Thanks, I'll try to check that. I know where there are some pictures of a disassembled Kimber so hopefully I'll be able to see if there is any difference in the shape of that piece.

I don't think I've depressed the grip safety while reassembling, but I have seen that mentioned as a problem elsewhere in the forums. I'm surprised that the Kimber manual does not mention this at all -- they should add a warning message!

Doug

[TattooPaul]

I'm surprised that the Kimber manual does not mention this at all -- they should add a warning message!

Doug

P.29 of my UCII Manual (in red) "If the Grip Safety is depressed while attempting to remove the slide, the push rod for the firing pin stop will be activated. Activating the Grip Safety will not allow the slide to be removed, if forces damage could occur to the firearm, which WILL NOT be covered under Warranty."

The same goes for putting it back on. With the slide off, press the Grip Safety and you'll see the part rise. If it's deformed, worn or not traveling up far enough, that may be where your problem is or the surface contact with the Grip Safety that pushes it up may be worn/improper.

I think your problem would happen more frequently if that were the case though...

Try a new recoil spring and inspect the guide rod for odd marks - maybe the orig. isn't allowing it to cycle fully/properly or is binding somehow on occasion.(yet another straw...)

Keep putting rounds thru it and keep track of when it happens. Mark mags so you know if it's any particular one or brand is not feeding.

...Just dawned on me, try pulling the firing pin and spring. clean 'em and lube 'em. Clean the inside of the slide too. Basically, detail strip the slide - at least the firing pin and spring as well as the extractor. Maybe it's dry, gummy, gunky, or any combination of those... Try using Tetra or other quality gun grease on the slide rails. Good gun grease will make it noticeably smoother than oil.

[TattooPaul]

Another brainstorm/straw. Make sure the mainspring is lubed as well. It's the coil spring inside the mainspring housing (sorry if you know this - I'm NOT trying to talk down to you, don't know your experience with pulling them apart) that pushes up on the hammer and is responsible for the strength of the hammers impact. If it's dry or gummy it may be interfering with the smooth, hard drop of the hammer. Put a rubber band around the Grip Safety to hold the sear spring in it's proper seat position on the sear, drift out the pin that hold it in place, pull the MSH and at least get some oil down in it or pull the spring and inspect,clean and lube it. WARNING: if you drift out the little pin that keeps the cap on the mainspring in it's housing beware - the cap will be a dangerous projectile if not controlled.

[Walver]

O.K. DemoMan, where's the range report? It's Saturday night, we know you shot that gun today. What's going on with the gun?
Walt

[DemoMan]

O.K. DemoMan, where's the range report? It's Saturday night, we know you shot that gun today. What's going on with the gun?
Walt

I believe I said "this weekend" and the weekend ain't over yet! :D

I had Cub Scout things to do today so I'm going to the range tomorrow morning. It's my first time at Eagle Creek so I've got no clue how busy it will be on a weekend. Hopefully I'll be there and done shooting by early afternoon. I promise a full report when I'm done!

Doug

[Walver]

Hey man, no problem! The cub scouts must come first, I really do understand. Good luck getting some range time. I forget how fortunate I am to have 150 acre Cherokee Gun Club ten minutes from my house. I would be embarrassed to tell how nice it is, I'm talking about paved roads, golf carts, covered pads for shooting tables, and I could go on. Enjoy yourself and your kids.
Walt

[DemoMan]

OK, just back from the range -- which by the way I think I'll be going to more often. Nice facility and the folks there were very friendly and helpful.

The problem occurred twice during a 150 round session, once with the new 8 round magazine and once with the factory 7 rounder. I was once again firing the Magtech ammo. The first time it occurred was with the 8 round magazine after about 70 rounds. There were three rounds left in the mag, one in the chamber. The second time it occured was right after placing the 7 round magazine in the weapon and releasing the slide; the very first round fed but would not fire.

In both cases, the slide was not completely forward. It seemed to be, but applying a little pressure to the rear of the slide brought it forward a fraction of an inch and then the weapon would fire. John, you mentioned this as something to check early on and it definitely seems to be the issue. The question is, what would prevent the slide from moving all the way forward?

Thanks again for your thoughts on this. It doesn't seem to be a magazine issue. I am a little suspicious of the ammo -- it sure seems to leave more gunk in the weapon than the Winchester and other ammo I fired previously. I'm all out of Magtech now so next trip to the range I'll try something else. I'm also going to detail strip the slide and give the firing pin a good cleaning, though that doesn't seem to be the problem here.

Oh, and off topic but while I was there someone fired a S&W 460 Magnum. I thought it was a rifle from the sound of the thing! Even with hearing protection on it was incredibly loud. Talk about port-a-cannons....

Doug

[John]

Take your pistol apart so that you can remove the recoil spring, guide rod and recoil plug. Put the slide with the barrel again on the frame and put the slide stop in place. Move the slide back and forth to make sure it moves smoothly and without any binding anywhere. Now put a loaded magazine in and try the same thing, again moving the slide with your hand. When pushing the slide forward, do it briskly. Put a finger at the rear of the slide and push. Does it stop again, before coming to full battery?

Waiting to hear from you.

[DemoMan]

Take your pistol apart so that you can remove the recoil spring, guide rod and recoil plug. Put the slide with the barrel again on the frame and put the slide stop in place. Move the slide back and forth to make sure it moves smoothly and without any binding anywhere. Now put a loaded magazine in and try the same thing, again moving the slide with your hand. When pushing the slide forward, do it briskly. Put a finger at the rear of the slide and push. Does it stop again, before coming to full battery?

Waiting to hear from you.

OK. I have the pistol apart for cleaning. I've done as you describe. When the slide moves forward, there is a little hesitation (depending on how fast I move it) when it touches the disconnector. As it gets to the end of the slide, there is some hesitation when the barrel begins to move up. I believe this is the point at which it has stopped before...the end of the barrel covers the chamber completely and is just starting to move up. It's not much, but it is noticeable.

Is this a matter of better lubrication? I'm going to clean and lube the weapon and try the same experiment.

Doug

[John]

Put a couple of drops of oil in the locking lugs on the inside top of the slide. Also a drop or two on the barrel legs, where it climbs over the slide stop shaft. Try again and come back to me.

[DemoMan]

Put a couple of drops of oil in the locking lugs on the inside top of the slide. Also a drop or two on the barrel legs, where it climbs over the slide stop shaft. Try again and come back to me.

I usually do put a drop in each lug since the manual talks about doing that. I added a drop to the barrel legs as well as you mentioned. It certainly slides more easily now and I don't notice the hesitation at the end of the slide.

With the weapon completely reassmebled and lubed, I noticed something when I cycle the slide slowly. At the end of the cycle, as the slide is moving forward, there is a noticeable increase in the force needed to move it at the very end of the motion. This occurs when the guide rod is flush with the plug, so there's much less than an inch of travel left. This may be normal, but I thought I should mention it.

Another note: when I was cleaning, I detail stripped the slide for the first time. The extractor was filthy with carbon. The firing pin was also dirty but not nearly as bad. I don't know if that was part of the problem but I feel a lot better having cleaned it.

One thing I've noticed about the gun is that it's getting some rub marks on the hood (if that's the right term) -- the part of the barrel that's visible when looking down at a closed chamber, where it says "45 ACP". I assumed that was normal wear but maybe not? The marks are side to side across the barrel.

[TattooPaul]

Perhaps Kimber needs to check/ream the chamber, though it sounds like you have slide binding issues even with no round involved. If so, the slide to frame tolerance may be a bit too snug. Perhaps the barrel link is a half-a-thousanth too long and it hangs a bit returning to battery, just before lock-up? Again, more brainstorming straws... My apologies if I'm way off...

[John]

One thing I've noticed about the gun is that it's getting some rub marks on the hood (if that's the right term) -- the part of the barrel that's visible when looking down at a closed chamber, where it says "45 ACP". I assumed that was normal wear but maybe not? The marks are side to side across the barrel.

This is normal.

I'll move this in the Gunsmithing section, trying to attract Tuner in here. There is something binding all right, but I can't troubleshoot it from here.

[1911Tuner]

Twice while about two or three rounds into a magazine, the slide would come forward and pick up a round, but though the hammer was cocked and saftey off, pulling the trigger did nothing. The first time it happened I attempted to clear the weapon. I dropped the magazine and tried to bring the slide back...but it would not move.

Here's our first clew...

Possible that the chamber is short...tight...tapered...any combination of the above, or all three...causing the slide to stop short of full battery, which doesn't let the disconnect reset between the trigger stirrup and sear foot. Remove the barrel and drop a live round into the chamber. Press on the rim to be sure that it's fully seated.
Tilt the barrel. The round should fall out. If it sticks...there's your bug.

Another possibility is a hard stem bind that is keeping the slide from going to full battery. When the tight round was ejected, was the case badly marred?

Run a quick test just to eliminate something mechanically wrong within the fire control group. Pull the trigger and hold it back while you hand-cycle the slide. Each time the slide returns to battery...release the trigger and dry-fire the gun, holding the trigger fully rearward and repeating. If the hammer falls every time, proceed to:

Insert each magazine...pull the trigger...and slowly release it. Does the trigger move forward smoothly and quickly...or does it seem to drag? If the magazine is causing a drag on the trigger, it can keep the trigger from resetting...which can sometimes keep the disconnect from resetting.

[DemoMan]

Thanks for your response! I appreciate your help.


Remove the barrel and drop a live round into the chamber. Press on the rim to be sure that it's fully seated.
Tilt the barrel. The round should fall out. If it sticks...there's your bug.


When I tried this, the round fell out very easily, no sticking or hesitation.


Another possibility is a hard stem bind that is keeping the slide from going to full battery. When the tight round was ejected, was the case badly marred?


The first time it happened I noticed a notch about 1/16" long that ran lengthwise. It started at the base of the projectile and extended onto the casing. There was a slight ridge along both sides of the notch. I don't know if that was there before I tried to fire that round. When I tried it later it chambered and fired. I have not noticed any marring since but I'll be on the lookout for it.

I also have a set of rounds that I've been chambering and ejecting to test some of the things John had me look at. I just examined each of those 7 and don't notice anything except some very faint scratches from front to back on the casing.


Run a quick test just to eliminate something mechanically wrong within the fire control group. Pull the trigger and hold it back while you hand-cycle the slide. Each time the slide returns to battery...release the trigger and dry-fire the gun, holding the trigger fully rearward and repeating. If the hammer falls every time, proceed to:


Hammer fell correctly each time I tried this.


Insert each magazine...pull the trigger...and slowly release it. Does the trigger move forward smoothly and quickly...or does it seem to drag? If the magazine is causing a drag on the trigger, it can keep the trigger from resetting...which can sometimes keep the disconnect from resetting.

I tried both mags and did not notice any drag on the trigger.

Is it possible that this is a case of lubricant that does not last long enough? It seems suspicious to me that this a) does not happen until at least 50 rounds have been fired and b) is very intermittent (2 out of 150 rounds yesterday). I'm using oil that came with a gun cleaning kit from Outers. There is no other brand name that I can see on it. Should I try a better brand of oil, or as Paul suggested grease?

Thanks again for your response. I'm amazed and grateful for all the suggestions and assistance everyone has given!

Doug

[1911Tuner]

Hi Doug. Let's check to see how the disconnect is functioning. Got a suspicion this is where the problem is.

Slide off...Hammer down. Pull the trigger and hold it. With a thumbnail. push the disconnect down until you feel it catch. Release the trigger and watch to see that it pops back up smoothly and quickly without any obvious drag.

If the reset seems sluggish, put a drop of oil on top of the disconnect and repeat the function a few times and take note if it improves. If it does, the disconnect is dragging in its channel for some reason. Could be a light burr or a rough spot on the part or in the channel. Could be that there isn't enough clearance between the parts. Could be that the sear spring is a little too long, and pushing forward on the trigger without pushing upward on the disconnect, causing the trigger to get it in a light bind. Could be a sharp edge on the sear feet snagging on the disconnect before it can get past them...or it could be a sharp edge on the disconnect spade grabbing the sear.

If you can induce the problem again...draw the hammer past full-cock briskly, and lower it onto the sear to see if that allows the hammer to fall. You may need to repeat it 2-3 times.

[DemoMan]

Hi Doug. Let's check to see how the disconnect is functioning. Got a suspicion this is where the problem is.

Slide off...Hammer down. Pull the trigger and hold it. With a thumbnail. push the disconnect down until you feel it catch. Release the trigger and watch to see that it pops back up smoothly and quickly without any obvious drag.


The disconnector pops back up as I release the trigger. There doesn't seem to be a delay or hesitation. How quick is quickly? It isn't blindingly fast but it isn't slow either.

I noticed something else that may or may not be an issue. When I push the disconnector down and it catches, it is not flush with the frame. A tiny bit still projects upwards. Is that a problem?

Thanks,
Doug

[1911Tuner]

The disconnector pops back up as I release the trigger. There doesn't seem to be a delay or hesitation. How quick is quickly? It isn't blindingly fast but it isn't slow either.

I noticed something else that may or may not be an issue. When I push the disconnector down and it catches, it is not flush with the frame. A tiny bit still projects upwards. Is that a problem?

Sounds like it's okay. Okay. Next range trip/test-fire...dribble a little light oil around the top of the disconnect and work it in and out of the frame so it'll run down into the channel. Go fire the gun normally and see if the problem shows up again. If it doesn't, you probably just need to clean the channel thoroughly and maybe do a little light polishing around the sides of the disconnector's head. L-I-G-H-T polishing...as in twist it between your fingers 3-4 times with 1,000-grit paper, followed by a brisk buffing on coarse denim.

If you're not sure how to disassemble the frame, sing out.

[John]

Johnny, did you noticed that Demoman seems to have some longitudinal scratches along the cases of his rounds? Something is scratching them. Demoman, have you visually inspected your chamber? Is it smooth?

The first time it happened I noticed a notch about 1/16" long that ran lengthwise. It started at the base of the projectile and extended onto the casing. There was a slight ridge along both sides of the notch. I don't know if that was there before I tried to fire that round. When I tried it later it chambered and fired. I have not noticed any marring since but I'll be on the lookout for it.

[1911Tuner]

Johnny, did you noticed that Demoman seems to have some longitudinal scratches along the cases of his rounds?

Nope. Didn't see that part.

When the hammer won't fall...Push forward on the slide and see if that does it. If it does, the gun is out of battery, and it isn't supposed to fire. If that's your problem, you've got other things to look at.

[John]

His gun will fire if the rear of the slide is pushed. The questions are:

(a) what's stopping its slide from returning to battery (fully)?
(b) why are his cases scratched?

[DemoMan]

Nope. Didn't see that part.

When the hammer won't fall...Push forward on the slide and see if that does it. If it does, the gun is out of battery, and it isn't supposed to fire. If that's your problem, you've got other things to look at.

That's exactly what's happening. It is nearly at the end of its travel; pushing on the rear of the slide makes it move forward a fraction of an inch and then the gun will fire.

You probably didn't see that because it was buried many posts into the thread. It was something I found after a second trip to the range and some questions from John.

I've loaned my camera out to a friend but when it returns Wednesday I'll take some pictures of the scratches on the casings. They are very faint, so I'm not sure if it is really an issue or not...could just be from loading and unloading them. I have not seen a repeat of the "notched" casing and I'm not convinced that the round didn't come that way in the box.

So far I have not been able to reproduce the problem without firing the weapon, and then only after a minumum of 70 rounds (so far). My gut says it has something to do with being fired for a while...but since it is so intermittent I may simply have not been "lucky" enough to see it happen after just a few rounds.

If the disconnector is sticking sometimes, couldn't that slow down the slide on its return enough that it would not fully return to battery? I'm especially suspicious of this because it becomes difficult to push the slide back to eject the round when this happens. If the disconnector is sticking up that might explain why the slide doesn't want to move (although I suppose other types of binding would have the same effect).

You guys definitely have more expertise with this than I do. I have to wonder though if detail stripping the frame and checking the disconnector's channel should be the next step...or should I wait until I have a chance to go to the range again?

This is starting to remind me of bug hunts I go on in my job as a computer programmer....lots of variables to wade through!

Doug


Doug

[John]

Somehow I do not think it has anything to do with your disconnector. When the stoppage occurs, the disconnector is pressed down by the slide.

Do me a favor and check your breech face for any burrs etc. Also, check the locking lugs in the slide and on the barrel, their corners should be sharp and true 90 degrees. Do you see any rounding there? Also check the underside of your slide for any burrs just in front of the disconnector notch. By the way, this pistol has the Swartz safety, right (you have to press the grip safety for the firing pin to be released). I've never seen the internals of a Swartz-equipped pistol, but I have to assume that when you grip the gun, something is moving up from the frame and presses a plunger somewhere at the bottom of the slide. Maybe there is some burr in front of the plunger??

Tough to troubleshoot from a distance :) :D

[TattooPaul]

Could the slide to rails tolerances be just ever-so-slightly too tight or the rails somehow deformed just a hair (dropped while apart)? Maybe take a calipers and run the outside of the rails and the inside of the slide to make sure they're parallel and true. I don't know what the tolerance should be but if the two dimensions are too close it's not good. Snug is good for accuracy but JMB put in play for a reason. Also, check the locking lugs on the barrel and the inside of the slide and check that they are not showing an odd wear spot where they might bind if not quite within spec. or if the link is out of spec. Again, I don't pretend to know anywhere near what Tuner and the others do, just throwing ideas out... Good luck!!! _Paul

[DemoMan]

Just a few notes. I have not had a chance to get back to the range yet but I did stop by a gun shop (Albor's) on the south side of Indy. I was drawn there because of reports of good ammo prices (which thankfully turned out to be true!). While I was there I talked to a staff member who carries a Kimber that had a very similar problem. In his case, it turned out that part of the slide rail (left rear, behind the notch for the safety) was bent ever-so-slightly inward. It was not much; I believe he said 5/1000th of an inch...but that was enough to cause the weapon to occasionaly fail to return to battery. He said that a little bit of work with a spreader corrected the problem.

I don't know if this is the problem with mine of course, but the symptoms were so very similar that I have to wonder. Tomorrow I'm going to shop for a micrometer (oh darn, I have to buy another tool) and see what I can see.

If I find something out of line I'm likely to send it back to Kimber. I work with my hands quite a bit but with tolerances this tight I'd be more comfortable with a professional doing the work. We'll see....

John, I have not seen any obvious burrs on the frame. The Swartz mechanism is a little post just to the right of the disconnector. It pushes up against a button on the bottom of the slide to disconnect the firing pin block. I don't notice any burrs or other deformities there, but I'll look tomorrow under a strong light and magnifying glass.

Doug

[TattooPaul]

Good inside and outside calipers work good there... I always get in trouble going to buy tools... if you consider buying things unrelated to what I went for in addition to what I went for to be "trouble"...

[John]

I don't know if this is the problem with mine of course, but the symptoms were so very similar that I have to wonder. Tomorrow I'm going to shop for a micrometer (oh darn, I have to buy another tool) and see what I can see.

At this stage, it can very well be. ?You need to measure the slide and frame and see if this is the case.

[DemoMan]

OK, sorry for the delay. Real life and all that...

I have a nice new digital caliper now and used it to check the rails on both frame and slide. For the slide, I measured the distance between the inner faces of the bottom part of the rail. In other words, if you look down the slide from the rear, the rail looks like "[". I measure the raised face at the bottom, not the inside of the slot because my calipers don't have those narrow feelers to reach inside something.

I measured the following points:

1) Rear of slide. 0.631 in
2) Rear of chamber, even with the face with the firing pin hole. 0.6315
3) Front of chamber, even with lug. 0.631
4) Front of slide, near the hood for the guide rod. 0.632
5) Front of slide, right next to the hood 0.660

That last reading reflects the presence of a small notch just to the rear of the hood for the guide rod on the left side of the slide. It looks as though it is supposed to be there; it is perfectly square, just slightly indented from the rest of the rail face. On the other hand, it is just the right width to be the point at which I start to notice resistance when the slide reaches the end of its travel.

The frame rail was much more consistent. I measured at several points along the (much shorter) rail, this time checking the distance between the top outer faces. Each time I got a reading of 0.7535 in.

I also looked for any burrs in the frame, and checked the barrel and slide lugs for any signs of rounding or uneven faces. I did not see anything obviously wrong there.

Assuming that little notch in the slide rail is supposed to be there, I believe the next step is to detail strip the frame. I have seen a set of instructions with photos on how to do it...is there anything in particular I should be careful about?

Doug

[TattooPaul]

I would think if this were the issue it'd be from the frame rails being out of alignment, like from a blow or a drop. I understand what you mean about the calipers not having the little hooked tip to reach inside the slide groove. While that dimension is part of free play tolerances I don't know that, unless a problem arose during machining (always a possibility but likely?) it should be close enough to be a non-issue. The lower edge, and especially the corners are most likiely to be out of alignment if dropped, etc.

I don't know about that notch. I don't see it on any of my 1911's , Kimber or Colt. I just peeled my slides off and looked at them all - no notch. I am looking at the slides themselves, right behind the "dust cover" over the recoil spring. The only notching that goes thru to the inside of any of my slides at any point are the slide stop notches (lock and disassembly), and the thumb safety. Perhaps Tuner has some input there. As I do not see it and it seems to align with your issues, perhaps you are on to something there...

[John]

We need to see pictures of that notch.

+1 on what Paul said.

[DemoMan]

Hey guys,

I'll take a picture or two later today and post.

Doug

[TattooPaul]

Look at the frame rail on the slide with that notch. Does it look like that has left a mark or wear of any kind on the rail? If it is causing a bind there might be excessive wear or a mark at the binding point. Maybe not but worth a look see... Check your slide and rails thoroughly for wear indications.

Check that the ejector doesn't have wear signs in case it is misaligned or out of spec. That could be a source of a bind, too.

After this, I'd inspect internal parts (if you're comfortable with disassembly and reassembly) or maybe it's getting to point where the factory needs to stand behind there product. They seem to take care of issues, I've never dealt with them. If you do contact Dennis, just be brief, concise and let him know what's happening and what you have checked. If we don't get it here let the experts back their product.

[DemoMan]

OK, below are some pictures of "the notch". As I was taking pictures, my Lighting Assitant (otherwise known as my wife!) noticed that there really are two notches, one on each side. The one on the right is much shallower which is why I missed it last night.

This first image is a look at the notch on the left (bottom). If you look closely you can see the one on the right (top).
http://www.chameleonconsulting.biz/images/kimbernotch1.jpg

Here is a look at it down the length of the slide.
http://www.chameleonconsulting.biz/images/kimbernotch2.jpg

Finally here is a look at the shallower notch on the right. The focus isn't as good but I think you can make it out.
http://www.chameleonconsulting.biz/images/kimbernotch3.jpg

Thanks for your thoughts, guys.

Doug

[TattooPaul]

OK, below are some pictures of "the notch". As I was taking pictures, my Lighting Assitant (otherwise known as my wife!) noticed that there really are two notches, one on each side. The one on the right is much shallower which is why I missed it last night.

This first image is a look at the notch on the left (bottom). If you look closely you can see the one on the right (top).
http://www.chameleonconsulting.biz/images/kimbernotch1.jpg

Here is a look at it down the length of the slide.
http://www.chameleonconsulting.biz/images/kimbernotch2.jpg

Finally here is a look at the shallower notch on the right. The focus isn't as good but I think you can make it out.
http://www.chameleonconsulting.biz/images/kimbernotch3.jpg

Thanks for your thoughts, guys.

Doug

It does look deliberate but perhaps an error?. I do not that on any of my 1911's. Here's where another TLE owner could REALLY help out...

Anyone out there with a TLE - do you have this, too?

[John]

I ain't sure I've seen those notches before in any slide, but I could be wrong. They do look as if they were made by the factory though.

[DemoMan]

After seeing John and Paul's responses, I emailed Dennis with a few notes about the problem and links to the photos. He just called me a moment ago. He says that those notches are a normal part of the machining process. He wants to take a look at it and gave me shipping instructions.

I'll let you know what I find out.

Doug

[TattooPaul]

Good idea and good luck! Keep us "posted". _Paul

[DemoMan]

Just a quick update. I sent in my TLE II last week to the Custom Shop. I was wondering what was happening, so emailed Dennis today. He said that my gun is getting a new slide and that repairs are running 2-3 weeks.

I'm suffering withdrawl. I may just need to purchase something new to take my mind off it :).

[Walver]

Doug, he tells people that, but it usually runs about 10 days. If you had not been so articulate, they would have blown you off. Good thing you are so thorough, and well documented every phase of the malfunctions. I'll bet you that it will be "right" when you get it back. When I'm in your position I get a box of wheat thins and a block of cheese, or a gallon of ice cream. Good luck....
Walt

[DemoMan]

Doug, he tells people that, but it usually runs about 10 days. If you had not been so articulate, they would have blown you off. Good thing you are so thorough, and well documented every phase of the malfunctions. I'll bet you that it will be "right" when you get it back. When I'm in your position I get a box of wheat thins and a block of cheese, or a gallon of ice cream. Good luck....
Walt

I'm debating about how hard I want to push him on why it needed a new slide. I have a sneaking suspicion that I was right about the notches. Maybe they are supposed to be there but not so deep? You can bet I'll be looking at that spot on the new slide when I get the gun back.

I'm a Ritz person rather that wheat thins but I'm with you on the ice cream! :D

[TattooPaul]

When you get it back it'll be interesting to see about the notches - no one else had reported seeing 'em on theirs. I would also pull the slide slowly to double check that the spring isn't on the long side as John mentioned. Once fully compressed they become a solid tube and even one extra coil could be an issue. I'm looking forward to learning what caused your issue.

[DemoMan]

Just got my TLE II back from Kimber. To refresh everyone's memory, the weapon would occasionaly fail to return to battery. After speaking with Kimber they asked me to send the weapon in.

I exchanged emails late last week with Dennis. He let me know that the weapon was getting a new slide. I was curious, given all the recent discussions about extractors, to see which I would get. The new slide has an internal extractor but otherwise is identical to the old one -- including the dreaded notches!

It seems this must really be part of the manufacture of Kimber slides, or at least TLE II models. One difference I noted right away, though, was that the notches are shallower. Look at the pictures earlier in this thread and you'll see that the one on the left of the old slide was deeper than the one on the right. On the new slide, the notches appear to be the same depth, and the overall width at that area is lower (0.650" instead of 0.660"). Otherwise the rail widths are very similar to what I measured previously.

Was it the too-deep notch? I'm going to ask Dennis in a follow up email but we may never know. They also reamed the barrel chamber and polished it, as well as polishing the push rod. I believe that was another area of concern from 1911Tuner.

I hope to get some range time in the next few days or over the weekend. I'll let you know how it goes. Assuming this works out, I think we need to put one in the positive column for Kimber's customer service -- they've certainly taken their lumps lately.

[John]

There is no way that those notches at the front of the slide rails would cause a FTRB.

Let us know how it shoots.

[TattooPaul]

Thanks for the update! Hope it works. I'll have to see if anyone I know has a TLE II to look at and compare notes (or should I say notches).

[DemoMan]

There is no way that those notches at the front of the slide rails would cause a FTRB.

Let us know how it shoots.

I know you have a lot more experience with 1911's than I do. It just seems awfully coincidental that the amount of travel left in the slide when it would bind was roughly equal to the width of the notches, especially when combined with the fact that one appeared to be deeper and sharper than one on the other side.

I'm certainly not a gunsmith so I'm probably fixating on something irrelevant. I just want a weapon that works when I pull the trigger...hopefully that's what I have now.

[DemoMan]

OK, here's the range report.

I fired 200 rounds today with 2 FTF's late in the session. These were not the original problem. In both cases, the slide stopped almost all the way back with one one round halfway into the chamber. The slide's forward motion was stopped by the next round in the magazine, almost as though it were trying to feed two rounds. Both times that it happened, it was on the second-to-last round of the magazine and the same magazine (the original Kimber 7 rounder that came with the weapon) was in use.

It seems to me this may be an issue with the magazine and not the weapon itself. That magazine has had at least 750 rounds through it that I have fired -- I know the folks at Kimber fired some through it but I don't know how many.

The good news is that the original problem does seem to be gone. Even better, this new slide is more accurate; I was consistently a bit to the left with the old one.

Any thoughts on the FTF's? Am I being too quick to blame the magazine?

Also -- I bought a new Kimber 8 rounder that performed perfectly well. It came with two bumper pads, a thick one that I put on the new magazine and a thinner one that I put on the 7 rounder. Both of these pads came off in the course of firing. Do I need to use Grip-Tite or something on the screws?

[TattooPaul]

I would try some 7 round mags that you knonw workd well in outer pistols. I like to swap mag springs and followers with Tripps. If you reallyant to keep the 8th rounf try Wilson spring followres and springs -FWIW...

[1911Tuner]

Any thoughts on the FTF's? Am I being too quick to blame the magazine?

It's the magazine.

[Walver]

DemoMan, I too realize it is the magazine, because I've been through that. You can fix the magazine by taking it apart first. Then use a porcelain rod and gently smooth the follower edges and the case lips, (all sides & radiuses) of the magazine, and skirt. After that, clean the inside case, and very lightly lube with some Breakfree. Reassemble and put a wood dowel or wood ruler on the follower and work up and down for 15 minutes. Now you have a good magazine, if you don't want to do this, just throw it away.
You basically have a new gun and will more than likely have the standard break-in issues that a Kimber has. During break-in, clean & lube it about every 50-75 rounds, the carbon soot buildup on the ramp and in the breach area will cause problems until it loosens up. I've had to do this three times since Christmas with new Kimbers, it's a pain. You have to wear the gun into proper fit and clearances, 400-500 rounds will do it. I'm glad they gave you a new slide, except it has to break-in to the barrel.
Walt

[DemoMan]

Thanks, guys. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time and your thoughts on all this. I feel pretty confident that the pistol will now function properly. One more successful trip to the range and I'll believe I can trust it as a carry weapon.

I am sure that the quick resolution with Kimber had a lot to do with all of your advice. I was able to tell Dennis with precision what was happening, what things had been tried, and what things seemed suspect. Without all that I might still be waiting for an answer.

Thanks again!