Curio & Relic 1911 question...

[RECCE556]

Hey folks, I wanted to find out if all USGI 1911's that were made before 1957 would qualify as a C&R pistol. From what I've read on the ATF site, it seems like it would be (since it's 50 years or older).

The reason why I'm asking is because I found a 1940's Ithaca M1911-A1 out of state that I wanted to purchase but because I live in California, I can only bring in pistols that qualify under the Federal C&R laws or one that is on the CA DOJ's list of "approved" handguns. I just want to make sure that a 40's model Ithaca M1911-A1 qualifies as a C&R pistol according to ATF rules.

[exitwounds]

All properly marked and identified semiautomatic pistols and revolvers used by, or mfd. for, any military organization prior to 1946 qualify as C&R. Here is the ATF's guide:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm

[RECCE556]

Thanks for the link...I did find this though...sounds like any firearm older than 50 years qualifies...


WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?

As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 178.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.


So that means a Colt Commercial that is pre-March 11, 1957 (as of today) is considered a C&R, no?

[exitwounds]

BTW,The last USGI pistol was made in 1945. Based on the statement above it looks like that would be the case, the FFL your planning on getting the pistol from should be able to tell you for sure.

[DF357]

ANY firearm, military or commercial that was made made than 50 years ago is considered C&R - even machine guns. The list posted on the ATF site is for firearms that are less than 50 years old and that they consider rare, or collectible for some other reason.

[exitwounds]

So that means a Colt Commercial that is pre-March 11, 1957 (as of today) is considered a C&R, no?

My guess is that the ATF is not going to get down to a specific date (such as Mar 11, 1957 or tomorrows date, and so on). Likely they are going to go by a serial number range for a particular cutoff year (such as 277910-C to 283800-C = 1957 Colt Govt Model production). I have found FFL dealers that will not ship to a C&R holder regardless of the year of mfr. being 50 yrs old or more. That's why I suggested you ask the FFL you intend to get the pistol from. More and more FFL dealers will not ship California, and other none gun friendly States such as NY, and MA.

[RECCE556]

Yeah, a lot of dealers are anti-California and I can understand but ultimately, just the dealer looses out because there is plenty of guy buyers here (probably more than a LOT of states just due to sheer numbers) and there is a lot of money to be made if they're just willing to learn the laws...and there are a lot dealers who are willing to deal with it to make good money.

Anything that the BATF considers a C&R pistol is legal in the state of California without having to go through the "approval" procedure. It's clearly written out in the CA laws. This is why I want to confirm that the 50 year "rule" was the golden rule with the ATF.

The additional entry that pre-1945 USGI M1911/M1911-A1 being definite C&R's just nails the case shut for me as this is my main concern. Although I wouldn't turn down a nice Colt Commercial for the right price. :D