Dream realized!

[TattooPaul]

Well, I have finally realized a dream of mine. I have just aquired a 1943 USGI 1911A1 in exceptional shape. The mag is a refinished or NOS Scoville with the C-S stamp on the toe (I put the first marks on the follower) otherwise it seems at very least correct. I did my best due diligence and it seemed in fine fettle so I went for it. I only have these preliminary photos but will have more details soon as time permits. As with all, pictures do not do it justice. I just couldn't wait to show 'er off! Thanks for letting me!!!

(p.s. - should I worry about hiding the last digits of the serial - I see that a lot but wonder what bad could come of letting them show - thanks)


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/TattooPaulie/1911A1-2.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/TattooPaulie/1911A1_1blur.jpg

[tombstone]

Very nice pistol!

[exitwounds]

The magazine would be correct. Nice looking pistol.

[TattooPaul]

The magazine would be correct. Nice looking pistol.
Thanks!
Yeah, it's the right stuff alright but was either unused or refinished. The follower was completely unmarked and the body in great shape. If refinished, it is the correct color and could pass as new old stock...

The rest of it is very straight! Couldn't pass it up...

[jeff1124]

Wow Paul, that is one fine looking pistol! And a piece of history to boot! Must've been kinda spendy?! It sure looks like it'd keep the riff-raff from IL. away from your cheese wheels!!! :)

[HercPilot]

Ok, so I'm finally pushed over the edge. How do I find something like that?


HercPilot

[exitwounds]

Is the magazine parkerized? It appears the baseplate is anyway in the pictures? If it is then it is refinished.

[TattooPaul]

Yes, it is Exitwounds, thanks for helping me figure that part for sure.

Actually Jeff, it wasn't a steal but I've seen lesser examples go for much more. I'm not so worried about the cheesewheels, they better leave my Pabst Blue Ribbon alone!!! ;)

[TattooPaul]

Ok, so I'm finally pushed over the edge. How do I find something like that?


HercPilot

Besides shows, keep your eyes on gunbroker.com and the likes and do some real digging. They can be buried in there but there's a lot of interesting items to be found there if you dig for 'em and e-mail the folks for details before purchasing. It's very tricky doing due diligence online but if you have a knowledge of the proofs, stamps, barrels etc. it helps you get going in the right direction. If you have someone with more advanced knowledge it will help, too. Just studying the forums and other parts of this site will get you a wealth of info to help you know what to look for to make an informed decision. If you need to, study up BEFORE looking!

[Joni Lynn]

Wow!!!! Excellent 1911...........super good looking. Great find!

[RemingtonRand]

Nice looking Colt -- I can tell this one will be getting good care.

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty certain this war gun has been refinished and not used after the finish was applied. Where and when it was done is left to the experts, but since the magazine also joined in on the parkerizing, this must have been done post WWII, IMO FWIW -- I don't believe that was SOP during production or arsenal rebuilds.

No matter what, you've got a nice Colt and a piece of history. My taste runs toward the more used examples; those that look as if they were slapped around somewhere in the mud and mire, although I have a few that are referred to as 'mint', but they have handling marks and all have some evidence of the idiot scratch near the slide/mag catch.

Thanks for showing off your newest acquisition.


RR

[OD*]

Very nice!

[TattooPaul]

RR - I have wondered about the finish and here's what I uncovered during due diligence and what I see as I study my purchase in person. Seller states that finish is original. I was skeptical about that due to it's exceptional condition. After recieving it and studying it in person here are some things I see that lead me think it's not out of the question, however. Unless there is a chemical way to strip and prep the frame there is no sign of manual surface prep. Edges, ribs, stampings, letters all retain crisp, good edges and depth and the flat surfaces have the correct surface texture to them. If it were refinished it would have been some time ago. The lead edge, high edge and holster wear; which don't show well in these quickie pics, indicate a fair amount of use since the finish was applied. The remaining finish is progressively thinner as it goes from center to edge - not like a fresh paint job. Slide to frame and other parts fit very well - it hasn't been thru the mill and reparked (no arsenal refurb stamps either). The parked mag does raise a flag and some smaller parts look like the finish is newer than the frame and slide. Contact with the archival dept. at Colt will help determine it's destination from the factory which may help shed some light on it's heritage. I will get some better daylight pictures to help accurately show the details.

I have some digging around and studying to do to see for sure. Maybe it sat in inventory somewhere, maybe a very well done refinish - hard to say at this point. I have not seen a refinish job that preserved the surfaces, edges and lettering/stampings so well. More examination is in order and when I get better pics I look forward to some of the experts here helping me sort it out.

[RemingtonRand]

I totally understand your quest.

It's the parkerized magazine that throws up the flags here. How about the small parts:

Are they parkerized to match the frame?

Is the firing pin stop worn and parkerized?

Is the butt end of the extractor parkerized?

Are both sides of the thumb safety and mag catch equal in finish?

Is the area around the grip screw studs parkerized to their base, or does it show staking marks -- also check the plunger tube for bare metal at the stack points.

How about flaking and bare metal on the final proof marks (sometimes hard to determine without a 10X loupe)?

I'm just thinking out loud here. I still like the pistol and am not trying to color it as a bad A1 by any means - I'm sure you understand this? Just digging, that's all :confused:


RR

[TattooPaul]

Understood RR. I doubted the claim of original finish - still do and many things point to a new one but, as stated above, the edges, ribs and stamps, etc. are in un-sanded/unbuffed/unprepped shape and there is wear indicating that the finish isn't real recent (that doesn't mean original - but it's not fresh). Any refinishes I've seen before have been easily noted with the degradation of edges and lettering. Here's the responses to your questions:

Small parts are parked - they seem to match the frame

FPS - parked and worn.

butt end of extractor - parked

haven't pulled thumb safety so I don't know about the back side yet

Mag catch - even

area by grip screws - parked to base on outside of frame, thin ring of bare metal on inside.

no flaking or bare metal by final proofs

Don't worry about your honest opinions here. I would like folks to add their input to my knowledge as I determint the true assessment of this A1. The level of expertise shown by others here far surpasses mine. I know much more than any of my friends and those with casual interest but I'm no expert. I bought this 1943 knowing that it appeared to be genuine USGI, that may not 100% original but did due diligence to insure, to the best of my ability, that if parts weren't original that they were correct and stamped/proofed properly. I also believed that this wasn't just a jumble of improper parts either after viewing numerous photo's. I understand that not 100% orig. is still just a parts gun but it appeared straight enough that I was OK with the price asked. Getting info from Colt may shed some light on some of this as well.

[John]

Man if this gun is 60 years old it's in darn good shape. Excellent find Paul! Very nice pistol, congrats!

[TattooPaul]

Man if this gun is 60 years old it's in darn good shape. Excellent find Paul! Very nice pistol, congrats!

The serial verifies it as a 1943 USGI - 64 years old! ...the slide to frame fit and elsewhere on it is something else... Just trying to determine the details.

[deadmarsh]

Paul:

Again, based on my limited experience, this pistol does not seem to have been given the refinish while under military control. I'm not sure if DCM refinished pistols before they sold them in the 1960's, but the end of the extractor being parkerized means the extractor remained in the slide when the process was done -- same for the firing pin stop, etc. I don't believe the military followed that procedure when these were initial manufactured or sent to be rebuilt as in AA, RIA, SA.

And if it was arsenaled at the majors, it would be marked, however, unit levels (Div,Btl) didn't mark many pistols when the armorer worked on them.

You're going to have to do a more detailed strip to see what else happened inside. Wherever it was refinished, I'm sure someone here with more knowledge will find the correct answers. Not saying anything negative, but just tossing out these things for others to see. And it really is hard trying to do this without seeing the pistol.


RR

[RemingtonRand]

Paul:

Have you taken the magazine apart -- springs/follower/inside tude -- are they parkerized as well?


RR

[Doran]

Shipped to Transportation Officer, Springfield Armory between 03 Dec 1943 and 20 Dec 1943 according to the big book. What finish is on the feed ramp?

[OD*]

Paul:

Again, based on my limited experience, this pistol does not seem to have been given the refinish while under military control. I'm not sure if DCM refinished pistols before they sold them in the 1960's, but the end of the extractor being parkerized means the extractor remained in the slide when the process was done -- same for the firing pin stop, etc. I don't believe the military followed that procedure when these were initial manufactured or sent to be rebuilt as in AA, RIA, SA.

And if it was arsenaled at the majors, it would be marked, however, unit levels (Div,Btl) didn't mark many pistols when the armorer worked on them.

You're going to have to do a more detailed strip to see what else happened inside. Wherever it was refinished, I'm sure someone here with more knowledge will find the correct answers. Not saying anything negative, but just tossing out these things for others to see. And it really is hard trying to do this without seeing the pistol.


RR

And if it was arsenaled at the majors,

Not necessarily.

And when you use multiple identities, you should be sure to sign your post with the correct alias. So, either pick Rem-Rand, FiringPinStop or Deadmarsh.

[TattooPaul]

Shipped to Transportation Officer, Springfield Armory between 03 Dec 1943 and 20 Dec 1943 according to the big book. What finish is on the feed ramp?

Doran - Feed ramp is exposed steel, "normal" appearance, just like my other 1911's. Thanks for the big book report - I have a newer smaller edition of Clawson's Service Model book on the way... Those biggies are fetching a pretty penny these days!

RR - the mag was dissaembled before getting the park job. Spring is not but the follower and inside of the tube are.

I plan on a "strip search" over the weekend as time permits...

[deadmarsh]

Well, four people have access to this computer at the shop...we all like this site and all have different sign-ins, however, since this appears to be a problem, we'll refrain from participating on the forum...


Dead

[OD*]

That's probably a good idea.

[HercPilot]

I'll just get ripped off if I try to find and buy something this nice. How about one of you guys finding a good deal and just PM me? :D

HercPilot

[GeoMackie]

Very nice Colt -- you should be proud of finding that one. It takes a lot of time to find the right handgun that you want to add to your collection (and I should add that this one must have put a dent in the old wallet) :)

Again congratulations on such a fine 1911A1.

[230HB]

Beautiful A1 Paul and I think anyone would be proud to place that in their collection.

[TattooPaul]

Thanks guys! It wasn't cheap but i've seen much pricier for lesser examples! When I get better pictures you'll get a better idea of what it really is like.

Herc - if I see something worthwhile I'll PM you...

[Phil]

I'm GREEN with envy :D :D :D

[Doran]

Bare metal on the ramp is a positive sign but some are knowledgable enough to include that after refinish.

I've seen parkerized WWI and WWII era magazines in field replacement wrappers or included with DCM pistols and I believe some of the 1950's era magazines may have been parkerized during manufacture.

[TattooPaul]

The mag is a definite refinish and some parts appear to be correct but refinished. Up close and in person the frame and slide appear that they just might be - still can't say for sure, but they have NOT been polished or sanded in any way. The gun was marketed as "orig. finish - correct parts" - not as 100% original pistol so I need to try to determine what's what. I'll know more after I strip it. I have to work today - need the OT to feed my Colt habit! - and I'll start the "strip-search" then! I'll get some better pics as well while it's apart.
Thanks to all for your expertise and help! :)

[Phil]

......The gun was marketed as "orig. finish - correct parts"Well, that's exactly what the gun looks like to me - a rather uninformed, non-expert....... who would love to find a gun like yours :) .

The overall finish does look "too good to be true" for a "totally original" 1943 gun, so it probably has been re-parked at some point. But there are all sorts of guns out there: total originals that look (and are) all beat up, arsenal re-works, parts guns, refinished guns, totally restored ones (beautiful, but extremely expensive for being non-original), and even the new repros from Colt.

Since it would be extremely rare to find an honest-to-godness, completely original, never issued, never fired, perfectly preserved war gun, it's up to each owner to decide what factors are most important to him or her, personally, and to be happy with whatever gun they decide to buy. Me? I'd be thrilled to own your gun, especially if all the parts are original and it's simply been nicely re-parked at some point.

PM me if you decide to sell it :D :D :D

[TattooPaul]

It has been carried and fired more than these pics show. The wear doen't show in these pics but if the frame and slide were refinished it was awhile back and has been used more than a little since then. The edge and stamp quality rules out manual stripping of original finish. I'm still at work so the tear down hasn't begun yet...

[OD*]

Possibly, it a restoration?

[TattooPaul]

Quite likely... Is there a chemical way that original parkerized finished are removed? If not the frame and slide show absolutely no sign of manual prep, even under my loupe.

[OD*]

I'm sure the pro's can strip them without leaving any tell-tale signs. That would be an excellent question to ask Bill Adair, Paul. You might even try e-mailing him pictures of your A1.

[TattooPaul]

Thanks for the lead, OD.
If this was done by a serious pro it seems odd that parts such as extractor, FPS and mag would have been handled incorrectly. At least this one was marketed and priced for what it appears to be. I was actually surprised when I saw it "live" for the first time that there was a chance of the frame and slide being original. Close-up study of the frame and slide make it possible to believe either not abusively used original finish (not all 1911A1's saw combat...) or well done strip and refinish with carrying, handling and firing afterward with other parts redone later. Some parts have obviousy been redone without the same attention to originality that the frame and slide would have had if they have indeed been redone along the way. We shall see!

[OD*]

However it turns out Paul, you have a beautiful A1, that I'd own in a heartbeat.

[TattooPaul]

Thanks again! Yeah, no regrets here. I didn't plan on an untainted original and got a bit better than I had planned, actually. I thought that the claim of original finish was improbable but the frame and slide aren't obvious re-parks and there is no damage done to the stamps, proofs and rollmarks which is a MAJOR plus. I've seen some refinishes that really degraded edges and lettering with overzealous sanding and buffing.
No matter the final outcome I am comfortable with what I paid and what I got.

[Joni Lynn]

That sums it up well. The most important thing should be whether you are satisfied or not.

[exitwounds]

Paul, Look the pistol over closely in areas that would receive wear during normal usage and see if there are signs of them being finished over (eg: scratch mark from the slide stop being improperly installed or removed). The Colt's Verified Proof (VP), final inspector stamps, and assembler's marks should all be after the finish. The "crossed cannons" stamp should also be after the final finish, as well as the G.H.D stamp. They all should show some bright or burnished metal where they abraded the finish when they were struck. Sometimes age, dirt, debris, etc. will clog those markings, and making validating a bit more involved. I use a 10x loupe, and hold the pistol a various angles in good lighting, and look as well as feel these areas. Your bullet ramp should show signs of tooling machine marks. The C-S magazine is WW II vintage, and is refinished. Many were refinished at arsenals/depots reissued with the refurbished pistols, as well as repacked as Doran mentioned and reissued. I have had some WW II magazines repacked in the '60s that were parkerized.

[TattooPaul]

Thanks, I will do that tomorrow afternoon. I have a feeling that those have been finished over but I need to get a loupe on them with good daylight. The ramp looks "healthy". There are wear marks so if indeed reparked it has been used more than just a little since. Quite likely refubished... Thankfully they didn't abuse it with the polishing wheel! All edges, stamps and lettering are still very nice. I appreciate the input a great deal. I have learned a lot from your postings here for sometime.