Recently inherited a US Navy Colt 1911 .45 ACP. I need some advice please.

[Andrew LB]

I just recently came into possession of my grandfathers WWII sidearm and wanted to show it off to some of the guys over at www.thefiringline.com due to it saying “Model of 1911 US Navy” on the right side of the slide. After they got to see some photos, they pointed out that this is no ordinary WWII era 1911, but one of only 40k or so produced…. This one being the 1025th made which signified US Navy on it as well as it being 100% original including the leather holster. I’ve gathered that it was made between 1912 and 1915 and more than likely saw two world wars since it has some mild wear and tear. Since WWII it was only fired once by my father about 30 years ago. The rest of the time It spent in a safe in my grandmothers house and then in my fathers and my gun safe (we have quite a few old classics like an original double barrel A.H. Fox 16ga from the teens.

Anyways, the guys on the forum wanted me to contact you guys over here about this Colt 1911 ACP. I’m going to say up front that It will not ever go up for sale, but id greatly appreciate it if you can give me some advice on options to get it back in action. I was considering putting in new springs and rods at first, so I can shoot it a few times but now that I’ve been informed of its rarity, I’m not sure about that anymore. I’m quite concerned about preserving what’s left of the guns finish and if it is possible to do any form or restoration which will not kill the value of the weapon (if it’s even worth that much). The serial number on the pistol is no: 39026 and it doesn’t have any arsenal markings on it which I’d imagine would make it more collectable. The pistol has never been re-finished or had the wood grips replaced/repaired. When my father took possession of the pistol 30 years ago, he fired it a few times and do a simple cleaning with Hoppe’s on a patch or soft brush and a wipe down with gun oil. Thank god he got me on the right track with such “mild” cleaners when I was just a boy since these new cleaners like “butch’s bore shine” or “M Pro 7” where the latter of those two ruined the wood finish on a 50 year old Remington bolt action target rifle my father gave me when I turned 16. (I’m 28 now).

Below are a few photos I took of the 1911. I’d like to get your professional advice on what you think about the weapon and if I should get new springs to make it functioning again, or perhaps even a restoration. Restoration is something I’m very stand-off-ish about because I’m afraid it could ruin the pistols value.

If any of you have comments, suggestions, criticism, flames, etc..... it's all welcome!

Thanks in advance,

-Andrew
Long Beach, CA

http://www.kalionzes.com/firearms/Colt-1911-1.jpg

http://www.kalionzes.com/firearms/Colt-1911-2.jpg

http://www.kalionzes.com/firearms/Colt-1911-3.jpg

http://www.kalionzes.com/firearms/Colt-1911-4.jpg

[Joni Lynn]

Very nice 1911!!!!!
Welcome to the forum.
If you're going to shoot it you probably want to get it a new set of springs.
If it were mine I wouldn't refinish it. As it is it's original, if you refinish it it'll look great but it will be a 'refinsihed' 1911. You may actually decrease value. Of course if you're never going to part with it, it's more about what you want than anything else.
I think it's just an awesome piece of history just the way it is.

[exitwounds]

Your pistols frame is a 1913 Colt 1911 USN pistol. It was shipped on July 25, 1913 to the U.S. Navy, General Storekeeper, at the U.S. Navy Yard, in Brooklyn, NY. There were 1300 pistols in that shipment serial numbered 38001 - 39300. However, the slide is not original to the frame, since it has the final patent date applied to it. The final patent date of AUG. 19. 1913 did not appear on slides until sometime around May of 1914 or shortly after serial number 83856. So your slide is either 1914 or 1915 vintage. The MODEL OF 1911 U.S. NAVY was only stamped on slides until March of 1915 or up to sn# 110000. The finish of the slide and frame are not exactly the same, which is also an indication of a mismatch. Still a rare and sought after pistol, and in very nice condition. IMO, since it belonged to your Grandad it is priceless. Congratulations.

[Hawkmoon]

Refinishing WILL kill the value. I just read in one of the gun valuation books that any re-blued collectable is rated (by them, at least) as "Fair/Poor." It is worth far more as it is, and it appears to be in very good condition for its age.

You certainly should not make it into a "shooter," but you might want to run a couple of magazines full of standard ball ammo (no +P stuff) through it. If you plan to shoot it, I would certainly replace the recoil spring (keep the original, and mark it as such), and I would add a shok-buff as a bit of extra insurance.

To be honest, if it were mine I probably would not shoot it at all, but that's not a given. I would detail strip it, give it a thorough cleaning, and lube everything up nicely as I reassemble. If there's even a hint of rust on what remains of the bluing, I would use synthetic motor oil and either a coarse piece of Terry cloth or maybe the rough side of one of those 3-M kitchen sponges (not the red ones that act like steel wool, the blue ones that are safe in finishes) to rub the oil into the rust and loosen it up. Wear latex or nitrile gloves ... not so much to protect your hands, but more so that the oils from your skin don't get on the matsl while you work.

I would also send off to Brownells for a starter pack of that vapor-emitting gun storage paper they sell. Wrap the gun in that, close it up in a freezer bag, and keep it safe for the next generation.

[exitwounds]

The pistol frame is the 1025th one in the 1913 serial number ranges for US NAVY marked pistols that year, but was the 8025th US NAVY marked pistol made since production started in 1912. The 8025th one out of 15,037 marked that way still is a good thing. Any type of refinishing will kill it's value, and again it is still very desirable even in its mismatched state. The finish is only original once, and likely it would loose 2/3rds of its value if refinished. I would avoid firing it or limit firing to only a few rounds if you must shoot it, damaging a pistol of that vintage will take it from treasure to trash in a heartbeat.

[mayagrafix]

What battleship was it sent to?

Also, is it missing a lanyard?

[mayagrafix]

My grandfather also gave me an M1911 that was armory rebuilt to NM specs by the marines at Quantico.... and since I was a young pogue I gave it up for "plastic gun" (Mea Culpa) when these became the rage and I have regretted it all the rest of my life :nono:

This is a keeper regardless if it is 100% original. And if you don't plan on building a shrine for it then only sell it to a serious collector who will!

[skinewmexico]

My grandfather also gave me an M1911 that was armory rebuilt to NM specs by the marines at Quantico.... and since I was a young pogue I gave it up for "plastic gun" (Mea Culpa) when these became the rage and I have regretted it all the rest of my life :nono:

This is a keeper regardless if it is 100% original. And if you don't plan on building a shrine for it then only sell it to a serious collector who will!
My dad had to put his in a box, and when the box was full, they threw it over the side. Count yourself lucky.

[John Holbrook]

First, Do Not Shoot it and DO NOT RESTORE IT!!!!!!!

Second, DO Not Change any parts!!!!

Here is a Navy Colt of the same vintage. Two years ago I was offered $8,000.00 for this .45 and its value will continue to rise. It is NOT for sale.

My Colt came off the USS OKLAHOMA...

http://www.fototime.com/%7BBD776CCC-87A4-4567-B804-4083D9BFF86A%7D/picture.JPG

http://www.fototime.com/%7B5F1A73D0-700D-48E7-AC46-7BF19A643FCF%7D/picture.JPG

[John Holbrook]

This is how the original barrel was marked....

Andrew, if you need any further info about your Colt, please feel free to contact me.....

John

http://www.fototime.com/%7BC6834167-5016-498A-9315-D8EC8CB3B39E%7D/picture.JPG

[Andrew LB]

First, Do Not Shoot it and DO NOT RESTORE IT!!!!!!!

Second, DO Not Change any parts!!!!

Here is a Navy Colt of the same vintage. Two years ago I was offered $8,000.00 for this .45 and its value will continue to rise. It is NOT for sale.

My Colt came off the USS OKLAHOMA...


Wow.... excellent finish for a NAVY pistol!


Here are two shots i put together of mine which have more natural light on them. I'm still trying to figure out why the body of the pistol looks lighter than the slide in the photos because sitting right here looking at it, they look almost identical color.

http://www.kalionzes.com/firearms/Colt-Navy-1911.jpg

[John Holbrook]

Your Colt appears to have a later rear sight. I should have the early rounded rear sight. See the attached photo. It all looks original, with the exception of the rear sight and the magazine, which should have a lanyard loop on it. You didn't comment on the barrel..

BTW, the below Colts are all Model Of 1911, U. S. Navy.

http://www.fototime.com/%7BD5C7B718-1F53-4ECA-84E3-882A2FFD9B84%7D/picture.JPG

[exitwounds]

Your Colt appears to have a later rear sight. I should have the early rounded rear sight. See the attached photo. It all looks original, with the exception of the rear sight and the magazine, which should have a lanyard loop on it. You didn't comment on the barrel..

BTW, the below Colts are all Model Of 1911, U. S. Navy.




So let's see your saying a 1913 final patent date is correct on sn# 39026?? The pistol was shipped before the final patent date, so it is obviously a later slide, not original to the pistol.

The earliest US NAVY marked 1911 I have seen with the final patent date of AUG. 19. 1913 was in the 96200 serial range. I have seen three others, one in the 40000 sn range, and two in the 43700 - 43900 sn range all with the final patent date of 1911.

[exitwounds]

Mr. Holbrook I would have to say your pistol has a later slide as well, anything upto serial number 42800 was shipped before the final patent was reached, and information states somewhere after sn 83856. I don't see Colt applying a final patent date prior to reaching a date that is still in the future.

[exitwounds]

What battleship was it sent to?

Pistols in the serial number range 38001 - 43800 were shipped to the US Navy Yard in Brooklyn, NY during July and August 1913 for routine Navy distribution, and could have ended up anywhere in the fleet. Serial number 39025, one digit earlier, was reported as being on the USS Nevada Dec. 7, 1941 (Pearl Harbor Attack) by the SRS. Pistol 39026 has a lanyard loop but it is hard to see in the first set of pictures. The original magazine would have had one if that is what you were referring to, but likely long gone if it was carried during WW II like the original poster says. :)

[exitwounds]

Your Colt appears to have a later rear sight. I should have the early rounded rear sight.

The rear sight looks like the flat top type, which appeared around serial number 60000 or so. The slide is off a 1914 or 1915 shipped Navy pistol based on that and the final patent date of 1913. :)

[Mick_In_Texas]

I bought a 1918-production run Colt's 1911 USGI about a year ago. Andrew, like yours, its finish is very good for its age; it passed standard function checks and visual inspection on field strip; I have fired 8 rounds through it, but that will NOT happen much; I had a certified gunsmith detail strip it and clean it and it looked almost like a well-carried modern arm. It is all original, as I have learned. I don't know as much technical and historical detail as the others here; but...

Yours is a beautiful collector's item. I also would advise against a refinish; looks like it's not rusted, just worn. I would NOT shoot it much, and never actually carry it as a defensive weapon: my own is "priceless" to me, as it was a dream come true; but YOURS is in FACT priceless, because it is a family heirloom!!! If you do occasionally want to fire her, use ONLY factory ammo in FMJ, standard speeds (no +P or anything "fancy") as someone has previously advised. Keep it clean, keep it properly lubed, and KEEP IT LIKE IT IS. It is a rare find, even outside coming to you from your grandfather's service through your father!

I will NEVER refinish my 1918; she's in great shape for an 89-year-old who went to war when she was young; nor will I shoot her much or carry her, and I have NO plans to replace anything in her. She's fully functional, even the battered old original magazine.

This just my own contribution, sir. You have a BEAUTIFUL heirloom there, an original example of one of the finest defensive and military pistols ever made. Cherish her, sir. I LOVE these original 1911s...

Y'all take care.
Mick

[John Holbrook]

The rear sight looks like the flat top type, which appeared around serial number 60000 or so. The slide is off a 1914 or 1915 shipped Navy pistol based on that and the final patent date of 1913. :)

You are absolutely correct on the Patent dates,,,,

[John Holbrook]

Here is a better example. This Colt, 38276 was assigned to the USS MAINE BB-10.


http://www.fototime.com/%7B0C84EDD3-5691-47AA-9FF7-B26BE49E11B7%7D/picture.JPG

http://www.fototime.com/%7B4AE0FF4E-7D2B-451F-9550-8582C1288A54%7D/picture.JPG

[Mick_In_Texas]

Here is a better example. This Colt, 38276 was assigned to the USS MAINE BB-10.


http://www.fototime.com/%7B0C84EDD3-5691-47AA-9FF7-B26BE49E11B7%7D/picture.JPG

http://www.fototime.com/%7B4AE0FF4E-7D2B-451F-9550-8582C1288A54%7D/picture.JPG

It is BEAUTIFUL. Beautiful.

Mick

[John Holbrook]

Yep, I own currently 14 Colt Navys....

Here are three 4 digit Colt Navys.

http://www.fototime.com/%7B704FDFE0-254D-4C92-9E8D-2A050A3B3749%7D/picture.JPG

[Mick_In_Texas]

Yep, I own currently 14 Colt Navys....

Here are three 4 digit Colt Navys.

http://www.fototime.com/%7B704FDFE0-254D-4C92-9E8D-2A050A3B3749%7D/picture.JPG

Man.

Sir, I thank you for your service to our country; and I think all these beauties are in GOOD HANDS with you, sir. Thank you for sharing these three of the 14! Wow. Just wonderful to know they're in really good hands. They're WONDERFUL, sir. Amen.

Mick

[Andrew LB]

Ok. Due to some of the confusion Ive been receiving among the opinions i've received on a various forums, I did a quick field strip of it today and found some markings which may or may not be meaningful. I'm sure some of you guys know what they mean. (btw.... it was quite dirty inside... mostly just gunked up old gun oil.... i did a good wipe down with fresh gun oil after shooting these photos which should be fine for the time being until I learn how to properly clean it as to not risk hurting the finish).


First off, All the magazines that I received are pictured below. Two of which look quite new. The remaining magazines are not. The mag pouch is definitely WW2 since on the back it says 1942. heh.

http://www.kalionzes.com/firearms/magazines.jpg


I found a few stamped markings on various parts inside the pistol. Here you see on the barrel near the barrel link a letter S and P.

http://www.kalionzes.com/firearms/barrel.jpg

In addition, near the back of the slide, on the inside I found a number 2.

http://www.kalionzes.com/firearms/slide.jpg

Finally I found a few other letters near the ejector. The Letters H, R, and C..... as seen in the photograph below.

http://www.kalionzes.com/firearms/Ejector.jpg

[Andrew LB]

The rear sight looks like the flat top type, which appeared around serial number 60000 or so. The slide is off a 1914 or 1915 shipped Navy pistol based on that and the final patent date of 1913. :)


Here is a photo of the rear sight. Yes. It is a flat top.

By the way.... is it normal to have that tiny notch on the topline of the slide to line up with the notch in the sight? (sorry.... I know nothing of these old 1911's)

I've always been more of a rifle and shotgun kinda guy since I grew up hunting.

http://www.kalionzes.com/firearms/rearsight.jpg

[Hawkmoon]

Ok. Due to some of the confusion Ive been receiving among the opinions i've received on a various forums, ...
There are other forums? :p

[mayagrafix]

On picture showing back of slide, the small hole inside the recess of the disconnector is good for all pistols made before 1925. The number 2 must be some kind of inspector mark. Is the slide numbered under the firing pin stop?

The P on the barrel is for proof fired (powder charge 50% greater than normal pressure test) and the S is for commercial caliber .45 sales. Government barrels should have a G.

The tiny align notch on the sight is ok

[exitwounds]

Is the slide numbered under the firing pin stop?

The P on the barrel is for proof fired (powder charge 50% greater than normal pressure test) and the S is for commercial caliber .45 sales. Government barrels should have a G.


Serial numbered slides did not begin until about 1920, and were originally serial numbered on the bottom of the slide forward the disconnector recess, and was only found on a small percentage of slides, by 1921 in the C130300 +/- range almost 100% of the slides were being numbered. But because the burnishing of the serial number in that location (forward the disconnector recess) caused the disconnector to wear, the serial number was moved to behind the firing pin stop plate. Serial numbers did not appear on USGI pistols until 1924 at sn 700001. ;)

The barrel on sn 39026 is a Springfield Armory replacement introduced in very late 1916. They were also found on production SA pistols in 1917 in the serial number range 127000 - 127978, and were used as replacements found intermixed between WW I and WW II time frame. It is not uncommon to find replacement barrels due to harsh conditions and use of corrosive ammo from the period.

The alignment mark on the rear sight is normal, and it is indeed the later flat top style which started appearing in late 1913 somewhere about sn 60000 or thereafter.

The marks are the disconnector hole on top of the frame are normal, the H is a Provisional Ordnance Inspection mark, the R is the Assembler's mark, and the mark you call a C should be a G indicating the pistol was made for Govt production.

Are there any markings on the top lip of the baseplate on the magazines? :)

[Doran]

The two magazines on the left might be Colt WWII contract. Extreme left looks like C-S and the next one to the right appears maybe C-something on my monitor. The other three are two tones from 1916 to possibly the late 30's. Those may have a letter code stamped on top of the magazine lip.

[Andrew LB]

Actually you're right, the C was really a G for government.


Also, one of the mags does have a C-S on the lip and an S on the top. This mag is one of the less worn looking ones.

Two of the most worn looking magazines have an A on the top of the tab which is unseen when inserted into the pistol.


Is there anything else I should be looking for guys?

Thanks for the help once again!

-Andrew

[exitwounds]

Also, one of the mags does have a C-S on the lip and an S on the top. This mag is one of the less worn looking ones.

Two of the most worn looking magazines have an A on the top of the tab which is unseen when inserted into the pistol.


The A marked magazine is WW I vintage, and was produced by the American Pin Co. of Waterbury, CT. The C-S marked mag is a Scovill Mfg. Co. (S) of Waterbury, CT subcontract for Colt (C). Scovill acquired American Pin in 1923, so your mag is that vintage or earlier. The unmarked mags appear to be Colt from the picture.

[jwenum]

If it was me I'd buy a whole set of Wolff springs to put in it & shoot it very little.You have a classic.Hey old timer,where do you live,so I can come & break in and get some of those beautiful .45's?

[Andrew LB]

If it was me I'd buy a whole set of Wolff springs to put in it & shoot it very little.You have a classic.Hey old timer,where do you live,so I can come & break in and get some of those beautiful .45's?


Only if you're interested in getting a really bad case of lead poisoning. ;)