Colt visit discussion thread

[John]

Please use this thread to discuss our article on our visit to Colt, as shown in our E-zine.

http://ezine.m1911.org/coltvisit_frame.htm

Thanks

[tonyniev]

I used to live in Long Island just across the sound from Hartford and did not think of touring this facility. I still regularly visit my office HQ in NY and can easily drive to Hartford.
Question- do they have regular tour for ordinary folks at Colt factory?
I am amazed that they do not use automated cnc's.

[John]

I do not know if they give regular tours and such, I do not think so, but you can PM Mark and ask him, I doubt it though.

[solz56]

Nice writeup. :)

[TattooPaul]

Thanks for the write-up! That was probably a once in a lifetime experience. I can't imagine thay would open their secured doors too often or to too many people. The fact that you 2 were invited speaks highly of what they think about you fella's personally and the caliber (pardon the pun!) of this forum. I would give just about anything to get to see that factory at work. It's SO nice to know that craftsmanship is alive and well at Colt. It's easy to go high-tech, high output just to make more and make a buck with less hands-on craftsmanship. I have a deep appreciation for that type of craftsmanship and the people who opt to continue with it. Their commitment to quality shows in each of my Colt's, semi-auto and wheeled. Big kudos to them and their craftsmen and craftswomen for keeping up that tradition and high level of quality. It would be very interesting to see a video about the process of making a Colt - not that it will happen anytime soon but boy, that would make a GREAT show! I love tools and making things and the precision hands-on machining and finishing of a Colt would be facinating.
It's also good to know that all that talk is just that. I figured it was just that but the affirmation is good. I'm amazed at how ill-informed some folks are. Though it bothers me to hear some things I am learning to let it go as, with anything, there is security and confidence in knowing the truth. It's too bad more folks don't know the truth but A: it leaves more Colt's for us and B: if someone chooses to not do due diligence and learn the facts I guess it's their problem although it can be annoying to those who know better.
Congradulations on getting the honor of touring the factory - I'm sure that's a limited group. Thanks for sharing the experience with all of us fans of the Rampant Colt!

[deadmarsh]

Thanks, gentlemen, enjoyed the article...

Dead

[feathers73]

Thanks for the article. I enjoyed it. I would like to visit them sometime myself. I do wish Colt would do a little more to reach out to their customers. For example, I wish they had a nice color catalog like Nighthawk, Wilson etc. Just something to drool over when you're not at your computer. The other thing I wish is I had some insight into what pistols they are producing at any particular time and their schedule for future production (models). Also, I wish you could buy more (or maybe you could) parts such as magazines etc so the Colt fan could be sure they are getting genuine Colt parts.

I love Colts but sometimes I feel their web site and advertising and so forth is behind the others.

Did they have a "gear shop" at the factory where you could buy stuff (T-shirts etc).

Anyway, if I went on tour those are the types of things I would be interested in asking them.

[Hunter]

Nice article John.
I hope to see the inside of the plant one day myself.

[Joni Lynn]

As many Colt's as some of the members here have maybe they could set up a 1911.org day at Colt's.

[EchoBravoKilo]

Very nice write up. Nice to see old school processes for an old school pistol.

[Elmo C]

I'll bet that that day was a day you and Hawk will remember always. To go to the temple of the firearms and see so many historical and state of art weapons. What a great way to end your visit. Brings goose bumps just thinking about going there. I'm glad you enjoyed your visit,and thanks for the insight to the Shot Show and Colt.

Sincerely,
Elmo C

[Phil]

Super write-up on a unique opportunity to visit Colt. Very informative. Thanks to you both, especially to John, since he had a bit longer trip :)

Here's a comment from Publisher's Weekly on Mel Torme's autobiography It Wasn't All Velvet , published in 1988:

"Torme has also been an aviator, motorcyclist, novelist, biographer, collector of rare Colt guns and father of five children and two stepchildren born to four wives."

It would seem that the Velvet Fog had about as many wives as I have Colts. :D :D

[swampthang]

Yes a hard chrome 45 and a 2 tone 38 Super..............and if one or the other doesn't show soon I'll buy the local 2 tone 45 just for a Colt fix.

Are the custom shop special orders taken individually at customer request,or do they have a run of a certain model and ship them out to distributors?

[cameroni]

I'm imagining custom-made polishing wheels,dust masks,strong,sure hands brushing hard-chrome(my favorite color).
I've already pictured my next Colt;the guttersnipe one.
In the meantime I'm paying for holsters...and ammo.
Many thanks for the report on Colt Tour. Excellent!

swampthang,
What SHOULD a friend do for a Tupperware- shooting friend!?

[drshame]

Great article...Congratulations!
What a "Class Company"...Kudos to Mark and the Colts' Craftsmen for opening up their plant to us!
Gee..don't see Kimber or Springfield as open do we?
Wanna see Elvis's .45's?
Straight outta Gracelands. They looked great!

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d13/drshame/ElvisGuns.jpg

[garrettwc]

Excellent write up. My compliments to both of you on being able to keep your wits about you and do such a thorough job. If I had been allowed in the holy shrine my knees would have been shaking so bad Mark would have had to wheel me around. :D

the tolerances are (after all these years) so precise that the assemblers do not need to match one piece to the other, they fit together within specs in 99.5% of the cases.
And probably just the way JMB intended 'em. The fact that they are able to do this without benefit of all the high tech tools speaks volumes to the caliber (no pun intended) of the people that work there and the finished product they produce.

Next time somebody is trash talkin' the high price of Colts I'm sticking the link to the article under their nose. There is a reason why so many of us prefer Colts. This article just clinched it.

Due to some less than crystal clear marking of the route to where I had arranged to meet my associate Harwood Loomis, we arrived at the Colt factory a little late.
Note to self: Don't ever ask Hawkmoon for directions. :p

[Mick_In_Texas]

... and have printed it out. Still need to read it fully. But, the fact that Mark was the ONLY factory rep to invite John and Howard to tour... I know they've had probs being a Colt's owner as well as Rock and Springer, but, still... My three Colt's's are fine. Shame some mfgrs don't recognize the folks here in the forums... we love the 1911 platform, ALL brands, but Colt's was the original. JMB left Winchester and went to Colt's and FN/Belgium, VERY late 1800s/early 1900s, and Colt's "did" the Model 1905, 1910, and USGI/civilian 1911s ORIGINALLY.

As a Colt's owner and shooter, really enjoyed this e-zine article, although in general, LOVE the e-zine! Just wish it was full page instead of frames.

Mick

[Tolly]

Sounds like an awesome little field trip and I would have enjoyed being along for the tour. After hearing you describe how everything is still done by hand the old fashioned way there is one thing that just bugs the heck out of me though. If these people are hand polishing and handling all of these parts on a one on one basis, how are so many examples of series 70 repros getting out of the factory with off center recoil spring/guide rod tunnels, and roll marks that run up or down hill? I have seen several new series 70s with one or both of these issues and I don't mean you have to look close to see it, I mean it's bad! I know I will probably get brow beaten for saying something negative here about the beloved Colt, but something just doesn't add up if these guns truly get the kind of handling and care John and Hawk were told they do, yet so many of them still come out the door messed up. I LOVE COLTS, and I own as many of them as a lot of you here do(24), and I will continue to buy them. They are still my favorite 1911 and always will be, the above is just something I have been noticing and have also been told about by several BIG name gunsmiths lately(all of which still prefer Colts and Springers to build on). Thanks for the write up and Mark sounds like a great guy.

[John]

I guess the answer to your question can be found exactly in the way these firearms are made. A human being has the disadvantage (or the advantage) of not being good at repetitive work, something at which a computer-controlled machine is excels. So when you rely on human beings to do all the work, it is inevitable that you will have some variations. On the other hand, even fully automated CNC machines, unless aligned and adjusted properly before the work begins, they can come up with problems like that, if not worst. Typically those machines should be adjusted to .0001" in order to produce tolerances of .001" that these parts require. The smallest error can cost you the whole batch of frames you are machining.

I guess quality control should catch those lemons you mention though. Why they didn't? I wish I knew.

[Baldy]

Good report El Commandante. Thanks be to Colt to for giving us a in side look.

[Hersh]

Nice report John ... I wish I'd had a copy to give to an idiot I ran into at a gunshow last Saturday. He had some nice shiny brand new XSEs in the case and then proceeds to tell me "Colt is out of business!" Will that story never end?

Maybe that's why he was asking $1200.00 for a used GCT!

[jeff1124]

I was at a local Gander Mountain today and they had 7 new Colts!! I was amazed! I was also amazed at the prices they had on them! A blued XSE government was 950.00!! A ltwt Commander XSE was about the same. Everything was 200.00 higher than what it should be!! Maybe that's why people think they're getting a good deal when they buy K or S brands. I guess Gander Mountain has their own "retail incentive" program for Colts.

[JustinTime]

Thank you for the informative article. It is really cool they still do everything by hand.

[garrettwc]

So I hear John and Hawkmoon went to the Colt factory. :p

[pa_guns]

So I hear John and Hawkmoon went to the Colt factory. :p

Hi

Wow, did they?

There should be a thread somewhere about that !!! :D :D :D

Bob

[Phil]

So I hear John and Hawkmoon went to the Colt factory. :pNah........ It's just a rumor :)

[pa_guns]

Nah........ It's just a rumor :)

Hi

Well I want to see some pictures of the hats and tee shirts before I believe it. :D :D :D

It's a shame they didn't make it before the end of the shift. Some of what they do in that factory is probably not done the same way anywhere else in the world.

Bob

[Poohgyrr]

::: next thing you know, he'd try to cast lead bullets in the living room. ::::


Why, that is just plain silly!!! Everyone knows the proper place for castin' n reloadin is in the outhouse out back. Right next to the computer where I can read all about M1911.ORG's visit to the COLT factory!! A Man's got to have his throne ya know.

Awesome visit! Absolutely!! And thank you for the reprint from 1948!


WWABD?

What Would Al Bundy Do??

[RECCE556]

It's interesting that they don't have any CNC/EDM machines. I think they could turn out better product with it. "Old World" workmanship is great and all but if you combine that work ethic with modern manufacturing technology, you would have a superior, higher quality product. Where most companies fail is quality control (like Smith & Wesson). Well at least now I know why it's hard to find Colt 1911's...

[pa_guns]

...... but if you combine that work ethic with modern manufacturing technology, you would have a superior, higher quality product. ....

Hi

I agree that modern tools are way beyond what Colt is now using.

I am pretty sure Colt has a heavy debit load at this point. True, that's the sins of the past, but it's still with them. They also still are a union shop. What ever they do has to happen within those two realities.

Coming up with the cash for million+ dollar a wack machining centers isn't going to be easy for them. If they had a little cash to spare I think opening up the Python line or something like that might make at least as much sense. Boosting the ad budget would also be good for them.

In my experience you can't get people to sit still long enough these days to learn what those polishing people know by heart. At the same time trying to re-train a workforce that's my age or older to run CNC's is also not an easy thing. Doing either thing and keeping quality up is very hard.

They have a system that works for them. It'll probably die with the generation that now is employed there. Until it does it's working just fine. They won't knock anybody else out of the business, but they won't go broke either.

Bob

[RECCE556]

They have a system that works for them. It'll probably die with the generation that now is employed there. Until it does it's working just fine. They won't knock anybody else out of the business, but they won't go broke either.

Their system works for now. I think this is the kind of thinking that keeps getting Colt in trouble. Shortsightedness in business is bad thing IMO. What's going to happen when the old guards are gone? I also think they should concentrate on teaching the "next generation".

Colt's old world thinking is what constantly gets them in trouble. They didn't cash in on the polymer gun fade (they tried, too little too late). They didn't cash in on the double stack 1911's. They didn't cash in on the factory-custom 1911 phase (very late on this one and really not up to par with the rest of the market IMO). They allowed lesser brands like Armalite, RRA, etc. to overtake the AR15 market because of politics, etc., etc...lots of ball dropping and bad decisions. I’d hate to have to buy future 1911 by “Colt (wholly owned subsidiary of Mitsubishi)” or something…

The Swiss Fine Watch industry is quite a good model to look at. At the "quartz revolution" almost decimated the entire industry, they came back strong. Invested heavily in modernized machinery and a few of the manufacturers even have in-house schools to teach the next generation of watchmakers. They have also spent a lot of time and energy into improving materials, etc. This is probably the best example of an "old world" industry that has embraced modernization without loosing their "old world craftsmanship". I think this is what Colt needs to do or they'll end up on the selling block once again.

[garrettwc]

Fancy machinery doesn't guarantee improved quality. It guarantees that any defects will be identical from one part to another. ;)

In other words modern CNC machines guarantee some consistency, but how much quality improves is limited by the design of the product and the skill of the machine operator.

Tom Givens wrote an excellent essay a while back about this. The 1911 was designed when a certain amount of hand fitting was the norm. As such there are limitations, inherent with the design that limit how much you can do by machine.

[RECCE556]

Fancy machinery doesn't guarantee improved quality. It guarantees that any defects will be identical from one part to another. ;).
While that is true, if their QC is in line, this won't be a problem...but you have pointed the greatest advantage...consistency. CNC/EDM machine are ridiculously accurate and if they have their programing setup correctly, they can turn out perfect parts effortlessly. Saving time = saving money. This is NOT to displace the "old timers", but more to give them time to pass on their knowledge to the next generation. They could also oversee the QC and work on custom items.

[pa_guns]

This is NOT to displace the "old timers", but more to give them time to pass on their knowledge to the next generation. They could also oversee the QC and work on custom items.

Hi

At least in the factories I have run turning highly skilled hand workers into something else is a *very* difficult task. Colt would have to do it within the constraints of a union system.

There are very few companies in this country run on anything more than a 3 to 5 year basis. That's not Colt, that's the way the country operates.

Colt is a *tiny* company. We have supermarkets here that employ 5X the workforce of Colt. Most companies their size are family owned small businesses.

I think they are doing just fine with the cards they have been dealt. Hopefully in five years or so they will pay off enough of the debt that other options are possible.

Bob

[Joni Lynn]

They're doing a lot better than Winchester did.

[pa_guns]

They're doing a lot better than Winchester did.

Hi

And we are talking about the commercial "step child" of a much larger company here. Much like Winchester and Olin.

Bob

[larry starling]

I think they are doing just fine with the cards they have been dealt. Hopefully in five years or so they will pay off enough of the debt that other options are possible.
I agree! Maybe in the future they will turn out some nice revolvers..... :o

[daveohno]

They have strong fingernails at Colt! They've been hanging on for years. The management there have made some missteps that have almost killed the company, but they survived. Let's hope the missteps are behind them and that they will continue to prosper.

[Joni Lynn]

That would be really great if they would do revolvers again.

[daveohno]

That would be really great if they would do revolvers again.
Did someone say wheelgun????? I'm in! But only if it has a horsey on it.

[RECCE556]

At least in the factories I have run turning highly skilled hand workers into something else is a *very* difficult task. Colt would have to do it within the constraints of a union system.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. In the industry that I currently work in, the union just messes everything up. Unions are going to kill this country.

[pa_guns]

Hi

They are balancing things pretty well. Let's hope they can keep it up.

Bob

[larry starling]

Hi

They are balancing things pretty well. Let's hope they can keep it up.

Bob
Yep, Very true statement...... :scared:

[John]

Just in case you haven't seen it, our friend Doran emailed me an article from a Colt factory tour circa 1948. It can be found at the end of our article in the E-zine. Interesting reading.

[garrettwc]

John, how does the factory you toured compare to the one in Doran's article from 1948?

[John]

Well, there aren't very many pictures showing the equipment in the '48 factory, so it's hard to compare. But the polishers are still working in that same way and the lathes are still there. Maybe they are more modern in appearance, but a lathe is a lathe. And the final assembly is still done very much in the same way.

[automan]

I was at a local Gander Mountain today and they had 7 new Colts!! I was amazed! I was also amazed at the prices they had on them! A blued XSE government was 950.00!! A ltwt Commander XSE was about the same. Everything was 200.00 higher than what it should be!! Maybe that's why people think they're getting a good deal when they buy K or S brands. I guess Gander Mountain has their own "retail incentive" program for Colts.


In my part of America, a new XSE LWC goes for $1040 or a new SS GM Super .38 for $945. The Colt catalog states that a suggested MSRP with tax for an XSE series pistol should be $944.00. I got a feeling Colt can't produce enough Pony's to fill everyone's gun safe. :D

[garrettwc]

That's sort of what I was thinking. Better lighting and newer machines, but people who still love the product and have pride in their work to build them with the same meticulous detail.

[Lazarus]

First, I want to thank John for getting the tour arranged at Colt. I was particularly suprised to hear that only 2 or 3 parts of the current manufacturing process included MIM parts. And, I was especially amazed that John's opinion puts Colt in the running for a good many years to come.

I had formed a few of my own opinions about just how long Colt intended to remain in business by the looks of a few recently made 1991 models. I won't go into the gory details, but I was very disappointed in the crude and sloppy workmanship evident in these recent products. Perhaps things are looking up at Colt. I certainly hope so. And BTW, Colt, let's put the series 80 to bed where it belongs....for good!

I ordered a 1911 Series 70 Government today at my local gun dealer, thanks to John's article on this forum. Amazingly, the store owner had not even heard of the model and had to search for quite some time to locate a Series 70 Government on the opposite coast! But then, my local gunstore sells mostly Kimbers and a few Springfield Mil-Spec guns now and then. The snazzy advertising in the gun mags really drums up business for those Kimbers, even though they don't seem to work too well.

Perhaps groups like m1911.org will help Colt, (and others) realize that a lot of folks really ARE interested in the original Browning masterpiece, and furthermore are willing to pay a fair price for one if it is correctly made. It is too painful to list the litany of design insults that have been thrown at the 1911 platform in the last 40 years or so, but I'm hoping that the current scarcity of Colt products is a good omen. Let's hope.

-Lazarus

[johnster999]

Nice report John ... I wish I'd had a copy to give to an idiot I ran into at a gunshow last Saturday. He had some nice shiny brand new XSEs in the case and then proceeds to tell me "Colt is out of business!" Will that story never end?

Maybe that's why he was asking $1200.00 for a used GCT!

Think I ran into the same guy at a show last year.

[paul45]

Old World" workmanship is great and all but if you combine that work ethic with modern manufacturing technology, you would have a superior, higher quality product. Like Colt's competitor perhaps, who I won't name?? Browse their forums and tell me your statement is true. I strongly and politely disagree with your statement.

[TattooPaul]

I am EXTREMELY glad that Colt is who they are and that they make things that way they do. I will take their craftsmanship over ANY other brand (I would like to add one Wilson somewhere along the line but that's a different situation there). I hope that doesn't ever change. It is the same reason wear a hand-made leather jacket from a small company that has resisted the lure of mass production in order to stay true to the roots of the company and the goals of the man that founded it (Langlitz Leather) rather than off the rack "stuff".
I wish they would address the misinformation spewed about them but, just as when you know you are right, there isn't always the need. That was what I was talking about in a different thread awhile back. Not their methods or indentity AT ALL - those make them of a unique quality and also keep them Colt, but rather to address the misinformed opinion that is all too prevalent. Since then, though, I do realize that they will still continue to sell all they produce and those that know better can continue to enjoy the products they produce. It is amazing that such a good thing can be so misunderstood by some. Their loss, our gain...

[auto45]

I'd have to agree with the CNC machines. Colt needs less "variable" fitting, more "accurate" slide/frame fits, for example and then use the "hand fitting" for what's really needed, barrel and trigger work. IMHO. I assume with the proper machinery they could ramp up production easier also.

It's rare to read problems about slide/frame fits, spec issues in Kimber, for example. It seems to be small parts issues, barrel issues etc if at all. Not counting their series II problems, small 1911's, etc.

[garrettwc]

I'd have to agree with the CNC machines. Colt needs less "variable" fitting, more "accurate" slide/frame fits, for example and then use the "hand fitting" for what's really needed, barrel and trigger work. IMHO. I assume with the proper machinery they could ramp up production easier also.

It's rare to read problems about slide/frame fits, spec issues in Kimber, for example. It seems to be small parts issues, barrel issues etc if at all. Not counting their series II problems, small 1911's, etc.

You must have missed this part of the article:
the tolerances are (after all these years) so precise that the assemblers do not need to match one piece to the other, they fit together within specs in 99.5% of the cases.

I don't see how CNC machines could improve much on that.

[auto45]

" within specs in 99.5% of the cases"

Colt's specs must be very tolerant. Several months ago I handled two Colt's at a gunshop. One was(appeared) to be well fit, little to no movement in the slide/frame and a tight barrel fit...meaning pushing down on the barrel hood yelded no movement. The other was just about the sloppiest slide/frame fit and barrel hood movement I have ever felt in a new gun.

Proper use of CNC machines would probably eliminate a lot of that I suspect.

[dakota1911]

I have seen similar issues on Kimber, SA, etc. It makes me wonder if the first people out the door during a "reduction" aren't the Q&A people.

[garrettwc]

Colt's specs must be very tolerant.
Colt is the only manufacturer that I know of that builds them to John Brownings true original specs. Everybody else makes them overly tight and that contributes to the reliability issues you hear about.

The other was just about the sloppiest slide/frame fit and barrel hood movement I have ever felt in a new gun.
That was the .5% one. :p

[TattooPaul]

One other benefit of not being cranked up tight as a drum is less likelihood of dust, dirt or gummed up lube causing problems. Not so much a range gun issue but a very real carry issue and military issue. Snug is good but too tight can be troublesome, especially if a number of extra tight specs combine to get in the way of proper feeding and cycling.

[auto45]

" That was the .5% one "

Ha, could be and I hope for their sake. ;)

99% of my shooting is done with a Colt, so I could kiss them for several reasons and "slap" them for others.

Probably true for most manufacturers I would guess.

[Poohgyrr]

Just wanted to say Thank You again to all involved for both the visit to Colt's factory, and the information on that visit (and everything else) in this Forum.

Great information and it is appreciated.

And yes, my fourth issue Detective Special would enjoy some company.