pre wwII 1911

[tthrasher]

It's great to have found this organization!
I'm a new owner of a pre-wwII 1911 and would like to learn a little more about it.(Value, history) My fater in law gave me his 1911 that he brought back from WWII.
The last patent date is aug. 19, 1913. serial No. 1,273,682
This is a colt, very tight and shows very little wear. It is in the original holster. The Holster is marked on the back with Enger-Kress and on the front with US. No cracks in the leather. anything I can learn about it would be appreciated.

[OD*]

How about some pictures?

I'm not certain, but I think that is an Ithaca serial number, one of the collectors will know.

[Doran]

Ithaca serial number likely shipped Mar or Apr 1944.

[exitwounds]

It is indeed a '44 Ithaca serial number, and based on your description it is sporting a Colt slide. Pictures would be very helpful, as well as any of the markings you can tell us about. It may be an arsenal/depot rebuild, in which case it would not be uncommon to find a slide of one manufacturer mated to another manufacturers frame.

[tthrasher]

It is indeed a '44 Ithaca serial number, and based on your description it is sporting a Colt slide. Pictures would be very helpful, as well as any of the markings you can tell us about. It may be an arsenal/depot rebuild, in which case it would not be uncommon to find a slide of one manufacturer mated to another manufacturers frame.
I apologize for posting this in the wrong forum the first time around. I'm very new to this and I guess I didnt pay attention.
Here are some photo's of my 1911
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w93/tthrasher_2007/poopcake017.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w93/tthrasher_2007/poopcake018-2.jpg

[OD*]

Very nice Augusta Arsenal rework. http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

[tthrasher]

Very nice Augusta Arsenal rework. http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
My father in law gave this gun to me. He served in the army air force during wwII and picked the gun up the same year he was realeased from service. This is the first 1911 i've ever owned but I've been a fan for a very long time.
Can you give me any more history, value, etc. not that I'll ever sell it!
Thanks,
Todd

[exitwounds]

The last patent date is aug. 19, 1913. serial No. 1,273,682

The pistol is NOT an Ithaca. Are you sure the serial number isn't 273682???

The pistol has a 1911 frame, Ithaca did NOT make 1911's, but made 1911A1s.

The AA stamp should be after the finish, and is that of Augusta Arsenal, Augusta, GA. The slide stop is a later 1911A1 type. Do the grips have 13 rows of checkering between the tips of the large diamonds around the screw holes? I can not see them clearly enough on my monitor to tell for sure.
If the sn I mentioned above is correct the slide is also a later 1911 version. If it is a 273xxx serial number it puts the pistol in 1918 Colt production.

[tthrasher]

The pistol is NOT an Ithaca. Are you sure the serial number isn't 273682???

The pistol has a 1911 frame, Ithaca did NOT make 1911's, but made 1911A1s.

The AA stamp should be after the finish, and is that of Augusta Arsenal, Augusta, GA. The slide stop is a later 1911A1 type. Do the grips have 13 rows of checkering between the tips of the large diamonds around the screw holes? I can not see them clearly enough on my monitor to tell for sure.
If the sn I mentioned above is correct the slide is also a later 1911 version. If it is a 273xxx serial number it puts the pistol in 1918 Colt production.
I don't have it in front of me right now, but I'll check all the issues you mentioned and get right back to you.
I appreciate all the help!

[exitwounds]

I don't have it in front of me right now, but I'll check all the issues you mentioned and get right back to you.
I appreciate all the help!

The cutoff serial number for 1911 pistols is about 629500 in 1919, the number you posted has too many digits to be a 1911 for one, and the picture is clearly of a 1911 frame. I just threw that number out there that i posted above, just guessing it was a typo. But do double check it, if it is higher than the 629500 number I posted above it has been renumbered, lower is fine. ;)

[Doran]

The serial numbered enlarged appears to be as stated but partially covered by the grip panel. Appears like an Eagle insp stamp present on the LHS. That USP placement used for ~500000 and above.

[exitwounds]

The serial numbered enlarged appears to be as stated but partially covered by the grip panel. Appears like an Eagle insp stamp present on the LHS. That USP placement used for ~500000 and above.

Your probably right, I can't see it on my computer, it is just a big blur in that location. I assumed the USP was there but can't see it either on my screen. But you are right about the USP placement if it's there.

[tthrasher]

The cutoff serial number for 1911 pistols is about 629500 in 1919, the number you posted has too many digits to be a 1911 for one, and the picture is clearly of a 1911 frame. I just threw that number out there that i posted above, just guessing it was a typo. But do double check it, if it is higher than the 629500 number I posted above it has been renumbered, lower is fine. ;)
Here are some better photo's.
No typo. And no matter how I count the cross hatch there are not 13. Hope the photo's help.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w93/tthrasher_2007/1911crosshatch011.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w93/tthrasher_2007/1911crosshatch010.jpg

[OD*]

I think someone may have "doctored" the serial number, that is a Colt receiver with the heart shaped cutout.

[tthrasher]

I think someone may have "doctored" the serial number, that is a Colt receiver with the heart shaped cutout.
Interesting. Any idea's about why someone would doctor the serial number?
My father in law has had it in his possetion since the end of the war. Knowing him, he came by it honestly, or at least he thought he did.

[RickB]

It looks like you can see a shadow of another "TY" (properTY), just above/left of the slide stop pin. The heart-shaped cut-outs, and hump-backed appearance of the frame tangs would indicate late 1918 production? It looks like the grip screw bushing was ground flush with the frame; maybe the whole frame was thinned a bit on that side?

[Doran]

More neatly done than usually seen. That particular serial was important enough to someone they went to the trouble to duplicate it.

[tthrasher]

Cool. I'm still not sure exactly what you guys are talking about, but I'm learning. I'm just proud to be holding a piece of history. This is why I want to learn as much as I can.

[exitwounds]

The grips look like they have 11 rows which would be Springfield Armory type. Well the serial number is indeed 1279682.

Since it is Augusta Arsenal (AA) stamped on the other side, I am beginning to wonder if the pistol is 1 of the 25 that Augusta Arsenal applied a replacement serial number to, it just so happens that it falls into that serial number range. These were applied at Augusta Arsenal on defaced pistols but did not have the X prefix. The 25 pistols were serial numbered 1279674 - 1279698. I have never seen one to compare it to, but at this point I would not rule it out as an original replacement serial number.

BTW,That info can be found on page 146 of Clawson's 3rd Edition Collector's Guide.

[exitwounds]

More neatly done than usually seen. That particular serial was important enough to someone they went to the trouble to duplicate it.

Possibly Augusta Arsenal, see Clawson's 3rd Edition Collector's Guide on page 146. ;)

[exitwounds]

BTW, the serial numbers 1279674 - 1279698 are listed as Replacement Serial Numbers between Ithaca production that ended at 1279673 and Remington Rand production that began at 1279699.

[exitwounds]

No typo.


1,273,682 is the serial number you originally posted, but the pistol is actually 1,279,682. That is why without the pictures Doran and I agreed on the Ithaca serial number range. So it was a typo. :D :D :D And actually may be a replacement serial number.

[Doran]

I wonder if the other renumbers have commas? If so that may help validate your pistol.

[tthrasher]

1,273,682 is the serial number you originally posted, but the pistol is actually 1,279,682. That is why without the pictures Doran and I agreed on the Ithaca serial number range. So it was a typo. :D :D :D And actually may be a replacement serial number.
I'm a bonehead.

[tthrasher]

I wonder if the other renumbers have commas? If so that may help validate your pistol.
any way I can find out?
I'm very greatful that I've found this forum. You all have been a great help.
Like I said, this is the first 1911 I've owned and it sounds like I have an interesting one.

[exitwounds]

Well, the consensus amongst other knowledgeable collectors is that the markings may be bogus, and that Augusta Arsenal would not have taken the time to add commas to the serial number, or reapply the United States Property mark. Do you know if the markings in question (USP and sn#) are stamped, or do they appear to be engraved? None of the collectors seem to think engraving would have been done, and I have my doubts about engraving myself. I do know that Letterkenny Army Depot engraved some M1 rifles with LEAD to mark weapons that went through their hands, which is unrelated, but just an instance where a Depot used an engraver. The other issue is that there are numerous refurbished pistols out there without the USP markings, that were blasted off during rebuild. The only marking that was important to the Ord. Dept. at that time was a serial number and possibly the final inspection mark, if and when it were used by the arsenal/depot. The ground off grip bushing also looks suspect to me and seems to match the finish well, I don't believe that an Arsenal/Depot would do such a thing when they could simply replace it. If there were a way to find out for sure, I do not know of it, other than to compare it to another in that 25 pistol serial number group that is known to be authentic. Since no one seems to have seen one to say for sure, they/we can only speculate as whether it is likely authentic or not. But I would not give up hope until it is validated either way as real or hoax.

[tthrasher]

Well, the consensus amongst other knowledgeable collectors is that the markings may be bogus, and that Augusta Arsenal would not have taken the time to add commas to the serial number, or reapply the United States Property mark. Do you know if the markings in question (USP and sn#) are stamped, or do they appear to be engraved? None of the collectors seem to think engraving would have been done, and I have my doubts about engraving myself. I do know that Letterkenny Army Depot engraved some M1 rifles with LEAD to mark weapons that went through their hands, which is unrelated, but just an instance where a Depot used an engraver. The other issue is that there are numerous refurbished pistols out there without the USP markings, that were blasted off during rebuild. The only marking that was important to the Ord. Dept. at that time was a serial number and possibly the final inspection mark, if and when it were used by the arsenal/depot. The ground off grip bushing also looks suspect to me and seems to match the finish well, I don't believe that an Arsenal/Depot would do such a thing when they could simply replace it. If there were a way to find out for sure, I do not know of it, other than to compare it to another in that 25 pistol serial number group that is known to be authentic. Since no one seems to have seen one to say for sure, they/we can only speculate as whether it is likely authentic or not. But I would not give up hope until it is validated either way as real or hoax.

The markings appear to be stamped. Can you elaborate the statement that the markings may be bogus? This doesnt upset me, in fact it interests me. What would be the motive to put fake numbers on it? My father in law is 83 and paid very little for the gun.He also has no sense of value for it, so I can't see profit as the motive. Could it be for illegal purposes? He supposedly has had it since WWII. Any ideas?
Love a good mystery.

[exitwounds]

A stamped or roll marked USP and sn# would be the most likely to be used by an Arsenal/Depot. Though Mr. Clawson list that serial number range being applied at an unknown date (which by that I think he means a specific date (mo/day/year)), and and would likely be '43 -'44 time frame given the serial number range. I think the others as well as myself (based upon the pictures) felt the markings are engraved rather than stamped or roll marked. No one I have elaborated with, and including myself have seen one of these to compare it's authenticity too/with. And as I suggested until a legitimate known example appears one can only speculate what it is, real or fake. Likely there will be numerous examples of USGI production with variations that may go on indefinitely unanswered. That is why I previously stated that I would not rule it as real or fake myself. Many pistols have been faked in the past, for the purpose of financial gain mostly, and it is often rarer, uncommon models that are associated with that. Replacement serial number pistols and X numbered pistols do not seem to have the desirability as original ones so so I see no gain at all in faking something like this myself. I find the pistol a truly interesting one, and would accept it for what it is, and hope to one day find more information which would validate it either way. Good luck in your endeavors.

[tthrasher]

A stamped or roll marked USP and sn# would be the most likely to be used by an Arsenal/Depot. Though Mr. Clawson list that serial number range being applied at an unknown date (which by that I think he means a specific date (mo/day/year)), and and would likely be '43 -'44 time frame given the serial number range. I think the others as well as myself (based upon the pictures) felt the markings are engraved rather than stamped or roll marked. No one I have elaborated with, and including myself have seen one of these to compare it's authenticity too/with. And as I suggested until a legitimate known example appears one can only speculate what it is, real or fake. Likely there will be numerous examples of USGI production with variations that may go on indefinitely unanswered. That is why I previously stated that I would not rule it as real or fake myself. Many pistols have been faked in the past, for the purpose of financial gain mostly, and it is often rarer, uncommon models that are associated with that. Replacement serial number pistols and X numbered pistols do not seem to have the desirability as original ones so so I see no gain at all in faking something like this myself. I find the pistol a truly interesting one, and would accept it for what it is, and hope to one day find more information which would validate it either way. Good luck in your endeavors.
Thank you. I feel that I've found an impotant source of information in this forum. I apprieciate everyones help and advice on this matter. I will continue to investigate and if I find out anything of interest I'll be sure to post.

[JM likes loud mouth]

It's great to have found this organization!
I'm a new owner of a pre-wwII 1911 and would like to learn a little more about it.(Value, history) My fater in law gave me his 1911 that he brought back from WWII.
The last patent date is aug. 19, 1913. serial No. 1,273,682
This is a colt, very tight and shows very little wear. It is in the original holster. The Holster is marked on the back with Enger-Kress and on the front with US. No cracks in the leather. anything I can learn about it would be appreciated.
Colt MFG. Model 1911 MILITARY-right side of slide marked "MODEL OF1911 U.S. ARMY", blue finish only (NOT parkerized unless reworked) Recent sales for original mint examples of the model 1911 Military are as follows: $8,300-413,500 for 1912 mfg,depending on the variation (there are three),$6,750 for 1913 mfg., $5,500 for 1914-1917 mfg., $5000 for 1918 mfg. (black Army finish), and $6000 for transistion pistols. Over 2,550,000 M1911 pistols were orded for WWI and WWII by the U.S. Goverment, but approx. 650,000 were mfg. between 1911-1925. Those pistols with a parkerized finish will indicate post-WWI reworking, usually marked with an arsenal code (ie.AA-AUGUSTA ARSENAL, SA-SPRINGFIELD ARSENAL,etc.) These reworks do not have the same values as original, unaltared specimens and prices generally are in the $350-$625 range. Model 1911 1912 mfg !00%-N/A 98% $5000, 95%-$3,500 90%-$2300 80%-$1500 70%-$900 60%-$700 Model 1911 1913 mfg. 100%-$4000 98%-$3000 90%-$2,250 80%-$1,500 70%-$900 60%-$700 Add 100% for the first 114 pistols with oversize "United States Property" marking. Add 75% for pistols in ser. no. range 115-2,400. Hopefully this helps, And yes this is a great site with great members. P.S- Does your wife have any sisters. Only Kidding, Im happly married. John, (AKA) JM likes loud mouth ,I mean guns not the wife.






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[exitwounds]

Where did you find the price guide you posted?

[JM likes loud mouth]

Dear Exitwounds, I found prices/text in Twenty-Seventh Edition Blue Book of Gun Values. Borders book stores,$39.95. I believe its the latest edition. Sorry if I took to long to respond, new part time job takes me away from computer lately. I quoted word for word from book.I can see you know your Colts Sir. Hopefully information helps all. Have a great day guys and gals. JM likes loud mouth.

[exitwounds]

Dear Exitwounds, I found prices/text in Twenty-Seventh Edition Blue Book of Gun Values. Borders book stores,$39.95. I believe its the latest edition. Sorry if I took to long to respond, new part time job takes me away from computer lately. I quoted word for word from book.I can see you know your Colts Sir. Hopefully information helps all. Have a great day guys and gals. JM likes loud mouth.

I have not acquired that edition as of yet. The prices likely reflect an average of high and low end purchases, of pistols that are 100% original (parts and type of finish, as well as rarity). The $413,500 seems way out of line, IMO. Thanks for the reply, based on that pricing guide most of these pistols will likely become unobtainable to the average collector in the next few years.

[JM likes loud mouth]

Thrasher, your right I messed up on typing it should have said $8,300 -$13,500 I hit the number 4 by accident making it $413,500. Wow thats a big difference.SO its $8,300-$13,500 for 1912 mfg. Sorry about that, I thought I proof read it. Your right who would be able to afford that. JM likes loud mouth.

[s91five0]

Hello, it looks like 14 rows of checking. I could be wrong.. nice gun

[exitwounds]

Hello, it looks like 14 rows of checking. I could be wrong.. nice gun

Most any type grip used on USGI pistols can be found on an arsenal rebuild. The pistol is frame appears to be of Colt origin based on the inspection mark. 14 rows is still considered correct for Colt grips, some avid collector's also feel the Colt used some 13 row grips since more of those seem to appear than the number of Rem-UMC pistols, and are often found on Colt's made in 1918.They have been observed with both or one of the grips having 13 rows.

[s91five0]

I noticed that the 1911 that i have was made in 1918 and is all colt correct but the grips have 13 rows. did colt make a 13 row?

[exitwounds]

I noticed that the 1911 that i have was made in 1918 and is all colt correct but the grips have 13 rows. did colt make a 13 row?

Like I said many avid collector's are beginning to think that some 13 row grips were used on Colt's at some point from 1918 to the end of production, simply because so many have been observed, and in numbers greater than the number of Rem-UMC's out there. The belief stems from the fact that Springfield Armory made 25,767 pistols opposed to Rem-UMC that made only 21,676, and yet Springfield's grips had 11 +/- 1 row and are seldom encountered. Some believe some of the 13 row grips may have been used by Colt, and may have been produced under a subcontract possibly since many appear during that 1918 time frame. There was a discussion on another forum not to long ago discussing there use on Colts as well. If everything else is correct on your pistol and the grips appear to be the originals then they may very well be. Here is a link to the thread: http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/pistol/pistol.pl?read=21371

[s91five0]

How do i post a picture of my gun so that i can put it on?

[exitwounds]

How do i post a picture of my gun so that i can put it on?

Read the FAQ above on posting pictures, you will need to use an image hosting service such as photobucket.com.

[s91five0]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t267/s91five0/colt45017.jpg this is a pic of my gun. maybe you can give me some info on it.

[exitwounds]

IMO, the grips look as if they could be original to the pistol, based on the overall condition of them and the pistol. I would be skeptical of lets say 95% condition grips on a 60% finish pistol. The grips likely have been with the pistol for a very long time, you could pull them off and examine the backing which will likely show staining in the areas around the area where the openings in the magazine well are, which may help validate their originality. Again, typically the 13 row grips are commonly associated with the Rem-UMC but are believed to be found on Colt's of that vintage as well. Some examples believed to be original by very knowledgeable collector's have been observed with the 13 row grips. The pistol shipped to the Ord. Depot at Bush Terminal, Brooklyn, NY on either Jul 27, 1918 or Sep 3, 1918.

[s91five0]

the serial no. is 388056, would this be considered a the black army 45

[s91five0]

The gun looks better in hand. The flash on the camera was pretty bright.

[s91five0]

I took the grips off and there is staining there.

[exitwounds]

the serial no. is 388056, would this be considered a the black army 45

No, the "Black Army" finish did not start until around the 400000 serial number range and continued through the end of WW I production.

[s91five0]

Thanks for all the info..

[s91five0]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t267/s91five0/colt45009.jpg Here is another photo without the flash...