PDA

View Full Version : Does Your G.I. Have Two "Clicks" or Three "Clicks"???



cliff731
6th February 2007, 14:51
Eldomatic brought home this fine looking G.I. Champion the other day...

http://elliottco.home.comcast.net/images_2A/Springfield_GI_45.JPG

and he commented to me about the hammer having three distinct "clicks" felt when being fully cocked... and this is what he asked me-

"I am curious what the extra "click" that is heard while cocking a Springfield pistol is. When cocking, there's the first click that you get right away and pulling the trigger will still drop the hammer, then there is the second click that if you pull the trigger nothing will happen, then there is the third and final click of the sear engaging the single action hammer claw. Do you know if it's the first or second click that is considered the safety stop? You've got the hammer safety stop and the single action claw but I don't know what the function of that extra click is. Something to do with the disconnect?"

Hmmm... I thought... I hadn't much noticed this myself... most of the time I rack the slide, which cocks the hammer.

So, I go grab that O.D. G.I. full size from the gunsafe, and try it... cock the hammer back, she's got three "clicks". Just like Eldomatic's G.I. Champion.

Now, I try my parkerized G.I. full size and doggone, I have only two "clicks". Ditto only "two" clicks with my parkerized Mil-Spec and the stainless Mil-Spec!!!

What's going on here? My "two click" parkerized G.I. is older than the "three click" OD G.I. and Eldomatic's G.I. Champion, which appear to be recent production guns. Has Springfield made a running change to the G.I. pistols?

Okay... OD", 1911Tuner, Joni Lynn, Hunter, John... do one of you know?

Rob1035
6th February 2007, 16:25
my older loaded has 2 clicks, the very new Micro GI has 3. I think most of the newer SAs have an extra click for some reason that is beyond me...


rob

cliff731
6th February 2007, 21:20
Thanks, Rob... I might have to make a call to Springfield to inquire about this. I'm leaning to some sort of change made in the production cycle at some point in time.

eldomatic
6th February 2007, 22:12
Oh, oh! I'm a dummy alert!
Just looked closer at the "Springfield Armory 1911-A1 Pistols, Operation and Safety Manual", copyright 2002 that came with my new GI .45.
Diagram on page 11:

http://elliottco.home.comcast.net/images_2A/Springfield_new_hammer.jpg

With apologies, I didn't follow the cardinal rule of "RTM" before posting my question to Cliff.
Looks like the newer 1911-A1's have redundant safety stops on the hammer. At the middle click, which is point A in the diagram, the hooked safety stop captures the sear and hammer to each other, which explains why the trigger is also locked until the hammer is re-cocked.

Lots to learn about my new Springer...

cliff731
6th February 2007, 22:39
I feel like a "dummy" too... I should be whipped for not being coignant of the RTM rule!!!

IIRC, this was in an earlier thread or at least some mention of that extra indention on the Springfield hammer.

Too, I don't think Colt is doing this on their Series 70 "re-issue" 1911's... how about the Series 80's? Anyone have some input?

Scott, to diverge a moment, the OD G.I. is exhibiting repeatable FTF with the factory SA magazine on the first round. :(

Those two Wilson Combat mags are flawless in operation. :D

That one "U.S.G.I" mag lost it's baseplate!!! :eek:

That's right... first time in the pistol, the baseplate popped off!!! FWIW, this one came from a well known scoundrel of an Ebay seller named "reddog______" in Alaska!!! Caveat emptor, folks!!! :nono:

myanof
8th February 2007, 22:34
I actually called SA and asked them about the third click on my LW Loaded Champion, as none of my other 1911s have three clicks. They informed me all the new SAs have an additional click for safety reasons. Whatever that means?

GR8GIFT
8th February 2007, 22:47
Only my newest GI Parkerized has the 3rd click. My older OD loaded and OD GI have 2. Can't think why they feel the extra is needed.

cliff731
8th February 2007, 23:16
Possibly, it's a creation driven by tort lawyers... :confused:

Still, I am curious about "why" they added this to their 1911A1 pistols.

Hey, Hunter... OD*... 1911Tuner... any of you guys know about this?

John
9th February 2007, 02:29
I am not Hunter, or 1911Tuner or OD*, but this has been discussed before. If you compare the hammer in your three-click SA pistols, you will note that it indeed has three notches. The first is a half-cock shelf, similar to the ones found on late Colt Series 80 pistols. This is a non-captive notch, meaning the hammer can fall from there (as you found out) by pulling the trigger. The second notch is a standard half-cock notch (like the one 1911s had since their first conception and until Colt embraced the Series 80 firing pin safety), this is a captive notch, meaning the hammer can not be dropped from it by pulling the trigger. And finally there is of course the full-cock notch.

Springfield went from the standard two-click hammers to this new design some years ago, I have to assume that it was a way to pass some of those State tests, like the CA ones. Basically, I do not think the additional half-cock shelf adds anything to the safe operation of the pistol, but then I am no lawyer, and unfortunately it is them who mandate those stupid things.

cliff731
9th February 2007, 07:29
I am not Hunter, or 1911Tuner or OD*, but this has been discussed before. John, while you're not one of the three mentors mentioned above, I do appreciate your answer... and btw, I didn't overlook you entirely... my initial post had your name... and Joni Lynn's too!!! :D True enough, I seemed to recall reading about this previously, but could not find any information in a search, albeit brief. Next time I shall perform a more exhaustive query.



Springfield went from the standard two-click hammers to this new design some years ago... Yes, but when? My "two-click" parkerized G.I. is maybe been with me two years and my stainless Mil-Spec, also a "two-click" Springfield, is not a year with me. Both were NIB. Possibly they set on a distributor's shelf for quite some time. Neither were in my local gunstore's inventory over thirty days. Perhaps a phone call to Springfield with the serial numbers ready can reveal their date of manufacture. I do agree with your assessment, the "three-click" hammer is all about lawyers and drop testing, but what else did Springfield change to make that extra stop of significance? In the inset diagram from Springfield, they call these two indents "redundant safety stops". IIRC, what was posted before made reference to SA's titanium firing pin and the "A" and "B" surfaces of the hammer to ensure successful "drop testing".

Again, my gratitude is due for your time given to answer my questions... and you provided a most thought provoking response.

John
9th February 2007, 11:05
That's all, as far as I know, the titanium firing pin and the heavy firing pin spring. Ah yes, maybe the ILS as well.

DavidB
9th February 2007, 11:28
I have a GI that I bought used in the fall of 2006, but from the receipt in the box, the gun was originally purchased in May 2005. Mine only had 2 clicks. Mine doesn't have the notch in the barrel hood aka the "Loaded Chamber Indicator" either. No idea when mine was made though.

Tom
9th February 2007, 12:22
All G.I. models do not have the loaded chamber indicator (i.e. the cut in the barrel hood). That's a "feature" on Mil-Spec models and higher. I'm sure that one could cut a similar notch in their G.I.-equipped barrel to achieve the same result, but I don't understand why someone can't just pull back on the slide a bit and look to see if there's a round chambered or not.

For grins I compared my 2004-built Mil-Spec to my 2006-built Loaded Operator. My Mil-Spec only has the two clicks, whereas my Operator does have the third click when cocking the hammer.

Woodman
9th February 2007, 13:40
From what I recall in older discussions on Springfield's 1911 Hammers... the "old" "half-cock" notch on the pre-2005/2006 pistols is really more of a "1/4-cock" notch. I know on my 2003 vintage 1911A1 Loaded, the first click only pulls the hammer to about 1/4 of it's full travel, and the second click is fully cocked and ready to fire. There was some concern in the discussion that the non captured "1/4 cock" wouldn't be enough to prevent an unintended discharge should all other safety mechanisms break on a Springfield 1911.

Bearing this in mind, perhaps Springfield decided to modify their hammers to have a fully captured half cock, as well as the uncaptured 1/4 cock. I have yet to try pulling the trigger on a live round after 1/4 cock as it's somewhat dangerous to get the hammer down, then back to 1/4 cock with a live round in the chamber... but if I remember next time I'm at the range I'll give it a shot. I'm sure California and other states increasingly strict "drop tests" are also a factor in the new "three click" hammers as well.

JHG
9th February 2007, 18:30
Back in July when there was another thread regarding the hammer change I emailed Springfield, their response in part was "We changed hammers in late 2005."

Here is a link to the thread I was referring to: http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=16879

DavidB
10th February 2007, 00:20
Thats weird that the GIs don't have the notch. You'd think the lawyers mandate them to be on all of the guns. I'd rather not have it anyways.

cliff731
10th February 2007, 14:28
Thats weird that the GIs don't have the notch. You'd think the lawyers mandate them to be on all of the guns. I'd rather not have it anyways.

Ditto... I would have "thunk" it to be on the G.I. also, but was myself somewhat pleasantly surprised at it's absence. :D

darwin-t
12th February 2007, 21:33
I'm brand spankin' new to the 1911.I just got a G.I. Champion My dealer told me that many people carry them at "quarter cock" - the first click when pulling the hammer back. The hammer doesn't have enough momentum to fire it if the trigger is pulled. He said this prevents it firing if dropped. I had never tried the half cock position until I read this thread. The trigger won't work when there, which I didn't know.

I prefer cocked and locked mode. If you think about it, every single action pistol has it's hammer cocked when they are carried with the safety on, you just can't SEE the hammer. My problem is I'm left handed, but I'd rather deal with the thumb safety than cocking the hammer.

What's the best/safest way to carry a 1911?

Woodman
12th February 2007, 21:55
I'm brand spankin' new to the 1911.I just got a G.I. Champion My dealer told me that many people carry them at "quarter cock" - the first click when pulling the hammer back. The hammer doesn't have enough momentum to fire it if the trigger is pulled. He said this prevents it firing if dropped. I had never tried the half cock position until I read this thread. The trigger won't work when there, which I didn't know.

I prefer cocked and locked mode. If you think about it, every single action pistol has it's hammer cocked when they are carried with the safety on, you just can't SEE the hammer. My problem is I'm left handed, but I'd rather deal with the thumb safety than cocking the hammer.

What's the best/safest way to carry a 1911?

Your dealer is clearly not well versed in the 1911. While the hammer MAY not strike with enough force to fire a round, it's dangerous getting the hammer down then back again with a live round in the chamber.

Overall, if you have a bullet in the chamber, condition one (round in chamber, hammer cocked, safety engaged) is the "safest" way to carry should you need to bring the gun to bear. Otherwise, condition 3 is "safe" as well, where there is no bullet in the chamber, hammer down, fully charged magazine locked in the gun. To carry the gun at 1/4 cock is just a bad idea in my opinion. Half cock is just as bad. The positive manual safety on the gun along with the grip safety is more than enough. Add a holster that has a strap designed to go between the cocked hammer and the firing pin, and you're very unlikely to have an unintended discharge.

John
13th February 2007, 02:58
What's the best/safest way to carry a 1911?

Woodman gave you a good answer. Safest? Leave it at home, empty, locked and with the ammo in a separate container. Best? I assume you mean best for self defense, otherwise why are you carrying a pistol? In that case, cocked and locked is the way to go.