Feeding SWC's to my RIA

[SLM]

This is the first time I took my RIA 1911A2 to the range and tried to feed is SWC's. I emphasize tried because it wasn't very happy with the idea. It would jam on 7 or 8 of the 10 rounds and sometimes more. The rounds stop with the bullet in the chamber, and the case head on the breechface.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20jam/RIAjam008.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20jam/RIAjam009.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20jam/RIAjam013.jpg

I found that sometimes I could get it to feed by just pulling back on the slide a little and letting it go. Other times that wouldn't work. The only fool proof method I found (and it isn't very comfortable to do) is to smack the muzzle with the palm of my hand. Sometimes it didn't take a very hard smack, just enough to push the barrel back and other times I had to whack it pretty hard.

I noticed some odd marks on the cases when I took them out of the tumbler. I've never seen anything like them. It's a partial ring around the brass. I added the marker line to make it easier to see.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20jam/RIAjam001.jpg

Looking into the chamber area when I got it home, it looked like this:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20jam/RIAjam004.jpg

It's pretty easy to see where the rounds are coming up the frame onto the barrel.

Looking at it, it looks to me like the rounds are jamming on the breechface, frame, barrel, and top of the chamber all at once or at least breechface, frame and barrel.

I bought this gun to be a range gun to shoot SWC's with. Any help would be greatly appreciated as my hand was sore for three days after shooting it from smacking the barrel, although it did help cut down on my ammo consumption! :D

[1911Tuner]

What you've got there is a Three-Point Jam. The crescent-shaped mark on the case and the fact that pushing the harrel backward allowed the rounds to chamber is the final proof. It comes from the bullet nose striking the barrel ramp/throat as it comes off the feed ramp instead of gliding over the top corner, and is strong indication that the frame ramp angle is greater than 31.5 degrees. It's fixable, but the tweak could be a little involved. Where are you located?

PS Do NOT polish the feed ramp. It won't help, and could make it worse...even to the point of rendering it UN-fixable...and possibly to the point that the gun won't even run on hardball.

[John]

A couple of points, Johhny if I may.

What is all this grey matter all over the gun?

Second, is there a chance that the extractor is too tight? I see that the rim of the round hasn't entered the extractor claw. Maybe this is also contributing to the problem?

[1911Tuner]

A couple of points, Johhny if I may.

What is all this grey matter all over the gun?

Second, is there a chance that the extractor is too tight? I see that the rim of the round hasn't entered the extractor claw. Maybe this is also contributing to the problem?

Probably fouling residue that's a mixture of lead and carbon.

Extractor tension may be a separate issue, but the main problem is the 3-Point Jam.

Extractor tension is usually a contributor...or even the sole cause...of an excessive stem-bind FTRTB. Simple stem bind stoppages normally allow a return to battery with a push or e light bump on the rear of the slide, while a hard 3-Point usually requires pulling the slide back and starting over. The crescent-shaped mark is the tattletale. It's a 3-Point.

The two malfunctions are often confused, and used interchangeably, but they're not the same.

[gbw]

What you've got there is a Three-Point Jam. The crescent-shaped mark on the case and the fact that pushing the harrel backward allowed the rounds to chamber is the final proof. It comes from the bullet nose striking the barrel ramp/throat as it comes off the feed ramp instead of gliding over the top corner, and is strong indication that the frame ramp angle is greater than 31.5 degrees. It's fixable, but the tweak could be a little involved. Where are you located?
PS Do NOT polish the feed ramp. It won't help, and could make it worse...even to the point of rendering it UN-fixable...and possibly to the point that the gun won't even run on hardball.

I'm glad to see this topic show up again, although I would never wish a malfunctioning pistol on any forum member.

I, and I'm betting many others, would be very interested in the specifics (details) of the tweaking process - beginning with whether or not the ramp really is cut too shallow, and going from there.

From what I read this seems to be one of the more common, and perhaps most mis-understood 1911 problems that show up, especially with lead swc bullets.

On the other hand, maybe it's just the magazine again?

[CJR]

SLM,

I agree with Tuner that you have a three-point jam. Also looks like you have some sharp burrs around the firing pin hole that is cutting into the brass rims. Likewise, there are burrs around your ejection port that could be cleaned up as well.

For what it's worth, years ago, the Gunsmith John Lawson did a detailed article on making a 1911 run with SWCs (i.e. H&G 68 & Lyman 452460). He made some minor dimensional changes to the feedramp and made the SWC feed reliably. He then incorporated these feedramp changes to 1911s he set up for LEOs.

Best regards,

CJR

[1911Tuner]

Before we go thinkin' it's gonna require major surgery, let's try a couple other things.

Some guns are sensitive to cartridge overall length when feeding semi-wadcutters. Some will do nicely with the Hensley&Gibbs #68 bullet, with the long truncated nose, and balk over the ones with the short, more stubby noses...and it could be that a different magazine design will turn it around.

The 200-grain H&G bullet...by far the most popular SWC in the pipes...seems to do well in most pistols at an OAL of 1.230-1.240 inch. Some pistols will respond to it as long as 1.250 or as short as 1.200 inch...but the middle ground is where I've seen the best feed reliability in a given pistol.

A good taper crimp is also almost critical. Enough to iron the case into the side of the driving band, but not so much as to bury the case mouth into the lead.

As far as having to alter a feed ramp specifically for the H&G wadcutters...pshaw. If the feed ramp is at 31 degrees, and the barrel ramp is to spec, it'll feed'em. I have several original, unaltered USGI pistols...WW1 and WW2 era...that don't know the difference between SWC and hardball...and they feed the rounds from the old-style "Hardball" magazines. I have witnesses.

Try an OEM Colt 7-round magazine, with the tapered feed lips, and play with the seating depth/cartridge OAL a little. You could find the sweet spot with just a little effort.

[gbw]

Probably fouling residue that's a mixture of lead and carbon.

Extractor tension may be a separate issue, but the main problem is the 3-Point Jam.

Extractor tension is usually a contributor...or even the sole cause...of an excessive stem-bind FTRTB. Simple stem bind stoppages normally allow a return to battery with a push or e light bump on the rear of the slide, while a hard 3-Point usually requires pulling the slide back and starting over. The crescent-shaped mark is the tattletale. It's a 3-Point.

The two malfunctions are often confused, and used interchangeably, but they're not the same.

Confused and used interchangeably by me at least...and trying to understand properly. With apologies for being so picky...

To clarify, if the extractor IS involved it's stem bind, and if not it's a 3-point?

And a 3-point may or may not actually involve an actual stoppage, but will normally result in the smile on the brass?

[1911Tuner]

To clarify, if the extractor IS involved it's stem bind, and if not it's a 3-point?

And a 3-point may or may not actually involve an actual stoppage, but will normally result in the smile on the brass?

Correct. A light 3-Point will make the smile, but doesn't always result in a stoppage.

Stem bind may involve the extractor, but it's not generally the sole cause. Sometimes an excessive stem bind can be relieved by taking a little tension off the extractor, but at that point, you're often walking a thin line between feed reliability and extraction/ejection reliability.

I say "excessive" because they all operate under a little stem bind. It's when it gets excessive that it causes problems.

[SLM]

Thanks Tuner, CJR. Three point jam is what I was thinking but didn't know for sure. Tuner, I'm in northeast Ohio. If I was closer, you'd already have the gun! I should probably also point out that this gun is a 1911-A2 double stack gun, not a -A1. I wasn't going to do a thing to it until I got more opinions. I was planning on ordering 3 or 4 standard capacity mags from Ivan for this gun along with having an ambi safety put on (I'm a lefty). Now I'm pretty hesitant to spend $30.00 bucks a pop on other mags. I did buy another Mec-Gar 10 rounder (paid way too much but wanted to try another mag) to try and it didn't make any difference which mag it is.

The rounds used were my handloads, some 200gr. Berry's and some 185gr. MasterBlaster rounds. The Berry's were loaded to a length of 1.200" on one batch and another to 1.230" to 1.235". The MasterBlaster 185's were loaded to 1.131". That didn't seem to make a difference as it wouldn't feed any of them.

Can this be fixed? :butthead: I like shooting it and I shot the best groups out of a .45acp that I've ever shot. Off hand at 7 yards I managed to put the first 3 rounds out of a mag of MasterBlaster's thru the same hole and there's only 5 holes in the target for 10 rounds!


John, you really can't see it in the pics but the case head is below the extractor, not up to it. The extractor is messed up though. It came that way. The notch where the firing pin stop holds it in isn't square. It's "V" shaped, allowing a little back and forth movement and clocking. I was going to try the one out of my Colt series 70 gun but it's even worse. As Tuner said, the black "stuff" is just residue. The only things that I have done are to take a piece of 600 grit sandpaper to the breechface to clean it up a little and I also did the underside of the slide to keep it from dragging the next round in the mag forward.

[BigO]

Well I certainly don't think I know near as much as Tuner or many others here but I do have two questions/suggestions .

First what brand of bullet are you using .

It looks to me as though they may be too soft and you're getting lead off of them on the ramp and barrel .

I have used Meisters almost exclusively due to having problems with other brands at times due to them being too soft .

Second is your recoil spring factory ?

I have replaced my factory spring in my Armscor made Charles Daly with a Wolf #16 one and was surprised at the difference in the tension on the slide and the feeding reliability it gave me .

I have read many posts on gun boards of people getting the same results as I after replacing the factory spring with a Wolf one .

You might consider lightly polishing the inside of the barrel with some 600 grit Wet/dry for say 3 minutes by wrapping it around your finger and working it in and out of the barrel "I did".

Might want to ask Tuner if this is a good idea first though .

[1911Tuner]

Well...I don't really do doublestacks...but if I was a bettin' man, I'd bet on the extractor causin' your failure to go to battery. Take the extractor out and hand-feed a few rounds to see if it feels any smoother.

[ArmscorBA]

I for one would like to see a pic of the loaded round and the loading data???
Thanks
Ivan

[Bud White]

I for one would like to see a pic of the loaded round and the loading data???
Thanks
Ivan

Me to the only time i have ever had problems feeding SWC in any of my 1911's was when I first was loading them and loaded them too long took a few tries to get OAL set to where they would run

[Auto Mag]

Too long is no good!!! I had that same problem when I first started to reload. It can really ruin your range time!!!

[SLM]

I for one would like to see a pic of the loaded round and the loading data???
Thanks
Ivan

The rounds used were my handloads, some 200gr. Berry's and some 185gr. MasterBlaster rounds. The Berry's were loaded to a length of 1.200" on one batch and another to 1.230" to 1.235". The MasterBlaster 185's were loaded to 1.131".

Both pushed by 5.2 grains Solo 1000. I'll pics of the loaded rounds up very shortly. Camera batter charging right now, extractor comming out too! Keep it comming guys! I really want this gun to run!! :D :D :D

[SLM]

Here are the pics of the loaded ammo and I pulled the extractor out, loaded 5 rounds of Berry's plated 200's at 1.200" in the mag (sorry, shot all the 1.23x" stuff), slingshot the slide and here's what it did...
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20jam%202/RIAjam2004.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20jam%202/RIAjam2005.jpg

And here's the loads... Berry's on the left, MasterBlaster on the right
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20jam%202/RIAjam2003.jpg

edit: Just found this one too:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20jam%202/DSCN1439.jpg

[ArmscorBA]

OAL looks on the short side. Which should be OK. But... That pistol is a dirty monkey???
Ivan

[SLM]

Well, I managed to feed it 300 rounds before the pics were taken and I have not cleaned it, on purpose. The last 50 I fed it were factory ball and it fed ran those just fine. Oh, and the pics make it look much worse. My camera has a pretty good macro mode. It'll show dirt in the headstamp you can't see with the naked eye! :p

[pa_guns]

Hi

I have had trouble with OAL's below 1.200" on 200 grain SWC's in the past. I have not specifically tried them in RIA's. I have tried them in several other pistols.

Bob

[auto45]

Ahhh...doublestack 45's...not the easiest "feeders" in the 1911 line IMHO.

One clue is that it worked fine with factory hardball, so I might look at replicating that load with a 230 round nose, same length, etc.

If it were mine, I'd try a 200 SWC closer to the "design" of the #68, which Berry's isn't, and load to 1.25". I'd probably forget about shooting 185's...IMHO.

I don't have substantial experience with double 45's, so take this advice as "opinion" only.

[SLM]

Yes, it seems to have broken in and feeds ball but I didn't buy this gun to shoot ball ammo in. I really, really want it to run SWC's. It's a range gun. It put 10 rounds of 185's thru 5 holes, the first 3 rounds out of the mag went thru one hole. I can't even come close to doing that with factory ball ammo.

There's got to be something that can be/needs to be done to get it to feed these. I'm going to try loading them longer and I'll get some true H&G 68 200gr SWC's and see if that helps too.

Tuner, if you are still following this, what would you recomend be done if it WERE NOT a widebody? You said something about the feedramp angle being more than 31.5 degrees. Is there something I could work on myself or try to find a decent gunsmith to fix? BTW, there don't seem to be any of those here in northeast OH. :(

[1911Tuner]

Don't know what the ramp specs are on a doublestack, but I suspect that it's the same. I'd try the long-snouted #68 with the OAL set at about 1.235 or so. I load mine to 1.235 inch, and they'll run through original, unaltered USGI pistols from the old hardball magazines.

[SLM]

Thanks Tuner. I got to toying and tried to put the barrel out of my Colt in the RIA just to see what that would do but it won't fit. The Colt is a series 70 and it will hand feed my loads, even with a mag a friend bought at a gun show for $5.00.

Looking at the frame, the ramp in the frame is different than the one in the RIA. It looks much more, well, cupped side to side and not as vertical. I'd post a couple pics if you'd take a look. I was told the Colt wasn't ever worked on when I bought it.

[1911Tuner]

Yeah...Pictures may help. Post'em...along with a recreated stoppage.

[auto45]

Tuner,

Do you find the shorter length at 1.235 to be a better "feeder" than a 1.25?

I ask that only because, I "thought" 1.25" was pretty much standard for the 200 #68.

[1911Tuner]

Do you find the shorter length at 1.235 to be a better "feeder" than a 1.25

Not as much to do with feeding as it is in chambering. The part of the shoulder that protrudes prevents reliable chambering in some barrels with a short or abrupt leade. The 1.235 inch OAL leaves about a 32nd inch of shoulder above the average case mouth, which rarely causes problems in any given gun. If yours will chamber and headspace easily with 1.250 inch...use it. If it won't, try seating a little deeper.

[auto45]

Thanks,

Mine does feed very reliably, but I do get the solid "hit" on the barrel ramp.
Wasn't sure if that would reduce that, or if it's solely a feed ramp/magazine issue. Again, it's so reliable(thousands of rounds) that I've been hesitant to "mess" with it, but don't mind trying something that doesn't permanently alter the gun.

[1911Tuner]

Sorry, m'fren. I don't know of any tapered/gradual-release doublestack magazines...so the only option left is to alter the barrel ramp...and that may not completely get rid of the bump.

[auto45]

Hi tuner,

Mine is a singlestack so I'll end up trying one of the Colt mags...just to see if it reduces the barrel ramp hit. I was "reaching" with a shorter OAL if it reduced the barrel ramp hit...ha!

Thanks

[1911Tuner]

Now...How'd I get the idea you had a doublestack? :confused:
Man! I gotta start gettin' more sack time...

Yep. A different magazine will probably do the trick.

[auto45]

No, your okay.

The originator of this thread has the doublestack.

I just "snuck" in and invaded for a little advice. ;)

[1911Tuner]

I just "snuck" in and invaded for a little advice.

I knew that...I knew that...

[SLM]

Yep, yep, mine's the doublestack! :D Below are some pics of the frame ramps...

still dirty, RIA on the left, Colt on the right:
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20vs%20Colt/RIAvs.jpg

Cleaned up:
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20vs%20Colt/RIAvs-1.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20vs%20Colt/RIAvs-6.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20vs%20Colt/RIAvs-2.jpg

View looking down, RIA on the RIGHT, Colt on the LEFT
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20vs%20Colt/RIAvs-4.jpg

Another view:
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20vs%20Colt/RIAvs-5.jpg


Just for grins I took some of the barrels too. They look almost the same to me but what do I know? :confused:

The Colt barrel is on the RIGHT, the RIA one is on the LEFT:

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20vs%20Colt/RIAvs-11.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20vs%20Colt/RIAvs-10.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20vs%20Colt/RIAvs-9.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20vs%20Colt/RIAvs-8.jpg

Tuner, what other view of the stoppage would you like? I'll try to get you whatever view you need. :)

[1911Tuner]

What in the name of John Moses has been chewin' on that doublestack's frame ramp?? :scared:

The Colt barrel ramp has been filed to get the 1/32nd inch gap, and not correctly blended. If it doesn't cause any problems, leave it.

Clean the doublestack's ramp and put the barrel into the bed...slidestop pin installed thru the link...and take a picture with the barrel pressed down and back.

Standin' by...

[SLM]

What in the name of John Moses has been chewin' on that doublestack's frame ramp?? :scared:

The Colt barrel ramp has been filed to get the 1/32nd inch gap, and not correctly blended. If it doesn't cause any problems, leave it.

Clean the doublestack's ramp and put the barrel into the bed...slidestop pin installed thru the link...and take a picture with the barrel pressed down and back.

Standin' by...
Ok, so the Colt has been worked on. I was told it hadn't been but it feeds just fine. Needs a new extractor though.

The doublestack was a brand new gun when I received it. That's how it came from the factory. Oh, and that's as clean as it comes. The black on the frame ramp is the bluing.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/barrel%20in%20frame/barrelinframe002.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/barrel%20in%20frame/barrelinframe003.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/barrel%20in%20frame/barrelinframe001.jpg

Is this what you want to see?

[1911Tuner]

Is this what you want to see?

Yep. Okay...The gap is there, but the corner of the feed ramp is rounded off...and it shouldn't be. It should be clean and sharp. The ramp itself looks pretty rough, too.

One more, if you'll be so kind to indulge me. A picture of the barrel and frame, as above...and add a magazine loaded with two rounds to show the starting position.

[Pappy]

"The only fool proof method I found (and it isn't very comfortable to do) is to smack the muzzle with the palm of my hand. Sometimes it didn't take a very hard smack, just enough to push the barrel back and other times I had to whack it pretty hard."

What am I missing???? Isn't this rather dangerous??? Pappy

[SLM]

Yep. Okay...The gap is there, but the corner of the feed ramp is rounded off...and it shouldn't be. It should be clean and sharp. The ramp itself looks pretty rough, too.

One more, if you'll be so kind to indulge me. A picture of the barrel and frame, as above...and add a magazine loaded with two rounds to show the starting position.
You mean the ramp on the barrel right? When you say ramp is rounded off and it should be clean and sharp?

Here's a few pics, some with SWC's loaded to 1.200" and the others are factory ball.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/loaded%20mag/loadedmag003.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/loaded%20mag/loadedmag002.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/loaded%20mag/loadedmag001.jpg



http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/loaded%20mag/loadedmag005.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/loaded%20mag/loadedmag004.jpg


If you need anything else, just let me know and I'll get it. I have to leave here in a few minutes and won't be back until around midnight but I'll get any more you need and have them up asap!

[Lubaloy]

I'd like to share a couple of observations......if I might.
Both the frame feed ramp and the barrel throat would benefit from some professional intervention. And I'm not talking scrapers or polishing. I'm talking machining. I've seen and cured similar feedramps and problems in para-ordnance double stacks.
Also......on one of the guns pictured, the plunger tube is about to fall off. There is a 1/16" gap between it and the frame at the back end.
Last, in the picture of the swc, the case has no apparent crimp at all. Neither a roll nor a taper crimp.
:o

[1911Tuner]

Both the frame feed ramp and the barrel throat would benefit from some professional intervention. And I'm not talking scrapers or polishing. I'm talking machining.

'Fraid Lub mighta called this one...judgin' by the looks of that ramp. Looks like somebody has already done an internet "Ramp and Throat Job" on it.

From what I can see by the pictures...instead of riding up on the frame ramp, and over the top corner of the barrel ramp, the SWC bullet nose is takin' a straight shot INTO the barrel ramp. Or...it does dip and ride up the feed ramp, but the rolled corner directs it straight into the barrel ramp instead of deflecting it high enough to glide across the top. Either way, you've likely got a 3-Point Jam.

[1911Tuner]

After takin' a closer peek...it looks like both barrels have been filed at the lower edges of the ramps. The bad frame ramp doesn't appear to have been machine cut...which makes me suspicious about the angle that the center is offering to the bullet.

Maybe the guy wallowed out the frame ramp in an attempt to make it act like a guide...realized what he had done...and set the bottom of the barrel ramp forward hopin' to correct his screw-up.

What think, Lub? Sound like a reasonable assessment?

[ArmscorBA]

The Tale of a man and his Dremel tool. :( :(
Ivan

[Bud White]

That looks pretty bad someone went wild with the dremel

[Lubaloy]

I dunno, Tuner.
I've seen factory original work look quite similar.
It does not appear that too much metal has been removed, rather that more needs to be removed in a proper fashion.

:confused:

[1911Tuner]

Lemme go look again...

Okay. Back. Lub...I may be wrong as a football bat, but if that's factory machining, I'm a fighter pilot for the Lower Slobovian Air Force. But it looks like you're spot on about takin' a little more off in the right places. Hard for me to call it. Doublestack .45s just ain't my thing, and I don't see many anyway.

I'd like to see this one up close and personal, though.

[ArmscorBA]

Johnny??
You know whats wrong with this pistol!! ;)
Ivan

[SLM]

Tuner, Ivan, Lubaloy, Bud ... Guy's, I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is/was a BRAND NEW gun purchased from Bull's Eye Shooter Supply in Tacoma, WA off Gunbroker.com. When I picked it up from my dealer, I brought it home to take a good look at it. The frame rails didn't show any signs of having been fired. The bluing wasn't even worn. The ONLY things I've done to it are to fit an EGW slidestop and take a piece of 600 grit sandpaper and clean up the machine markes on the bottom of the slide where it rides over the rounds in the mags a little. They were pretty bad. That's it, nothing else. No Dremel near it. Gun in the house, Dremel in the garage. :D :D :D :D That's the way it's supposed to be, right?

Tuner, you may be right about the Colt. It may have been cut on by some hack job "back in the day". I've had it over 15 years and I can promise you that it has not been worked on in that time period. I really don't know it's history but was told it's all original. I bought it thru my cousin, I never met the seller. Oh, I'd bring it over but I think you're 8 hours and 500 miles from me. I keep reading about your coffee! :p

[John]

Did anyone notice how thicker the vertical impact surface is on the double-stuck pistol?

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/RIA%20vs%20Colt/RIAvs-6.jpg

And I agree with Tuner, from the pictures with the magazine in the pistol, either with the SWC or the balls, the round is not hitting the frame ramp as it is, it looks as if it is going straight to the barrel's ramp, which will result in the barrel being pushed forward and up, and cause the jam.

[mjrodney]

I had the same problem a year or so ago.

It simply went away when I began to seat the 200g LSWC so that the shoulder was about 1/32" away from the mouth of the case.

This over the top of 4.0g of ordinary Clays.

I don't know what style of LSWC this is, though. I pick them up from a local caster and I run through 150-200 rounds a week in either a S&W 1911 or a SIG P220. OAL is 1.234"

Never a FTF.

See comparison photo.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s41/mjrodney/Bulletseatingdiff.jpg

[1911Tuner]

I don't know what style of LSWC this is, though.

That's the Hensley & Gibbs #68 200-grain bullet. It's the easiest of all the SWCs to feed to a 1911, because that's what it was developed for. Generally...if the gun will feed hardball, there's a 90% change that it'll feed that one...often without touching the barrel ramp.

[1911Tuner]

Tuner, Ivan, Lubaloy, Bud ... Guy's, I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is/was a BRAND NEW gun purchased from Bull's Eye Shooter Supply in Tacoma, WA off Gunbroker.com. When I picked it up from my dealer, I brought it home to take a good look at it. The frame rails didn't show any signs of having been fired. The bluing wasn't even worn.

I know ya did...but unfired or fired very little doesn't guarantee that this wasn't done to the gun by some hack. That may be the very reason that it was on gunbroker to start with. I've seen unfired pistols that have been "smiffed on" before the owner put the first round through'em...then sold or traded as NIB/Unfired when they wouldn't work. Lub may be correct...that this ramp was factory-cut...but I'm a whole lotta skeptical. Looks like so many "File & Dremel" specials that I've seen.

[pa_guns]

Hi

I've been following along for a while here.

The pistol does indeed look like it's been chewed on a bit. I certainly have never seen a factory frame that looked like that. I have seen the occasional place where somebody slipped and did a gouge, but this is way past that.

So here's the *real* question - what's next?

Somebody *good* is going to have to take care of this one. The pistol will never behave right in the condition it's in.

Bob

[CJR]

1911Tuner,

As far as having to alter a feed ramp specifically for the H&G wadcutters...pshaw.

SLM,

Since the frame feed ramp is obviously out of spec and needs correction, I'd suggest sending it to George at EGW and have him weld build-up the frame feedramp and recut it. George may be able to just recut it, but he'll need to inspect said frame. George does excellent welding/machining, is reasonable in cost, and the gun will be better than new. I've had George weld on a number of my Mannlicher bolts to my Mauser 98 rifles and the work was excellent. I'd suggest you have George use 3.5% nickel weld rod for the build-up.

Best regards,

CJR

[SLM]

I know ya did...but unfired or fired very little doesn't guarantee that this wasn't done to the gun by some hack. That may be the very reason that it was on gunbroker to start with. I've seen unfired pistols that have been "smiffed on" before the owner put the first round through'em...then sold or traded as NIB/Unfired when they wouldn't work. Lub may be correct...that this ramp was factory-cut...but I'm a whole lotta skeptical. Looks like so many "File & Dremel" specials that I've seen.
I guess you could be right. Bull's Eye very easily could have lied I guess. I have no true way of knowing. It sounds like you think somebody got bored behind the counter one day and decided to "fix" it. Great. Just my luck.

CJR, thanks for the recomendation of EGW. I thought about George. "Better than new". HAHAHA! I guess that isn't going to take much the way everyone seems to be talking. :p

Man, this is not cool. Not even a little. :butthead: :butthead: :butthead: :butthead:



So here's the *real* question - what's next?

Bob
Ain't that the truth!!!

[pa_guns]

I It sounds like you think somebody got bored behind the counter one day and decided to "fix" it.

Hi

My guess is that the pistol was sold, then "fixed", and returned under some kind of 30 day money back guarantee. The guys at the store didn't spot the problem when they took it back or they just didn't care. At some point the problem was spotted and the auction was the solution.

Bob

[Kevincurtis]

Hi guys,I like the taper crimp idea. Thats what allowed my springfield to accept 200 gr wadcutters after many similar jams. It might just mask a problem but at least I can shoot the gun and not get frustrated.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Kevin, and welcome aboard.

A good taper crimp might help...but most problems I've run into from lack of a crimp were generally failure to go to battery problems instead of outright failures to feed. But...It may help, at least a little...maybe a lot. Won't hurt to try.

[bushka]

Would`nt a good fix for frames with knawed up ramps be having them recut for ramped barrels?
seems to me a doublestack should have that work done already. :butthead:

[Bud White]

Would`nt a good fix for frames with knawed up ramps be having them recut for ramped barrels?
seems to me a doublestack should have that work done already. :butthead:

Yep that is one way ..

Also you can have a new feedramp installed cost probley be about the same or close i bet

[SLM]

Hi

My guess is that the pistol was sold, then "fixed", and returned under some kind of 30 day money back guarantee. The guys at the store didn't spot the problem when they took it back or they just didn't care. At some point the problem was spotted and the auction was the solution.

Bob
Well, three of us here have bought these guns from Bull's Eye. I PM'ed one to see if he's had any trouble with his and I don't remember who the other member is.

Do you guys SERIOUSLY think this gun was worked on before I received it? If so, I'll be on the phone to Bull's Eye. I'm also very interested in what I hear back from Longslide but he hasn't been around since Wednesday. I know these guns are old, imported before the mag ban expired. The test shell casing envelope that came with mine is dated 04/30/02. COULD it have been done this way at the factory? I don't want to call Bull's Eye if there is even a slight chance it came this way. Personally, I believe it left the factory in the condition it's in but if Tuner, Ivan, etc. say no way, then I will believe you guys. Thanks for the help so far.

[pa_guns]

Hi

I have no real idea what happened with RIA year by year. I can say that the stuff I have seen (made after 2004) puts yours in the "no way" category.

Bob

[bushka]

I`ll tell ya thats one ugly cut for a factory job,musta been the first few.
Nope,methinks the factory would at least mill it clean to look symetrical.
Call up the frame maker and ask about it,then give it back to you know who.
even a round file would have made it look better even if its wrong.

[pa_guns]

Hi

If this pistol has been bouncing around since 2002 it's going to be *very* hard to know what's going on with it. A lot of what I see show up this way has been distributor back room sweep up stuff. That makes a "fix and return" a lot more likely.

Bob

[1911Tuner]

Well...Lubaloy has indicated that this mess can be cleaned up with a little careful application of Bridgeport...without using an insert. I'd like to hear a bit more detail on his analysis and avenue of approach.

Lub? What say you?

[Lubaloy]

Tuner,
I shared my thoughts.
I am understandably reluctant to speculate specifically, without the gun on my bench.
I have great respect for your talents and sharp eye, and I have zero desire to disagree with you without a VERY firm leg on which to stand.
As I see it the owner can return it to the manufacturer for repair, send it to a competent and caring smith experienced in double stacks for tuning, or take a drive to NC to meet a great guy!
I will hazard a guess that all three options would have positive results.
:)

[John]

Wait a minute, am I wrong in remembering that this is a RIA pistol we are talking about?

If so, Ivan can tell us if that's the way the feeding ramp is supposed to be on these pistols. Come on Sir Ivan, enlighten us!

[1911Tuner]

Talk to me Lub...You may be seein' somethin' I'm not. The only point I can concentrate on is how ragged the thing looks, and that I have a strong suspicion that it's been (purposely) hacked up so bad that only a ramp insert will set it right. In all my borned days, I've never seen a factory ramp like that...not even on an old Thompson Auto Ordnance...and you know how bad those things were.

[SLM]

Yea, I'm hoping Ivan chimes back in too. Something else that crossed my mind... Is it possible that these guns were some sort of just pieced together at the factory from reject parts? I know one other member with the same gun is sending his back for repair (out of spec slide stop that won't fully engage the slide and what he called "junk" internals).

Here is how poor the fitting of extractor to slide is... and yes I realize it's just cosmetics.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/machine%20marks/poormachining001.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/machine%20marks/poormachining002.jpg

And in these you can see the left over machining lip on the top of the slide. I had to bevel the EGW firing pin retainer to clear it... the factory one was shorter and thinner so it clearded it
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/machine%20marks/poormachining007.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p247/ifly172/machine%20marks/poormachining004.jpg

What I can't get a good picture of is the notch in the extractor. It's deep and was quite the "V" shape. I had to square it up alot to get the EGW fps thru it so now the "V" doesn't show up near as much.

[gbw]

I'd like very much also to hear Lubaloy's plans for machining. 2 reasons, first is simply to learn another approach, with the specifics, to how it's done by the pros.

Second and maybe more important, to know when to throw in the towell and get pro help, and when a real machine shop (and the skill to use it) is required.

In vain confidence I sometimes believe I can do anything by hand that can be done on the lathes, mills, and grinders. I know intellectually that this is not true, but not always WHEN it's not true.

[SLM]

I too was hoping to read what Lubaloy thought could maybe be done. Thought maybe Ivan would chime back in too. It's just sitting here right now.

[pa_guns]

Hi

At some point you really can't figure things out from a picture. You need to sit down with the frame in front of you and see what's what. I think we have reached that point.

Bob

[Iron bottom]

I smell a bad welding job. In posts 34 and 39 I see a little weld bead, if you can call it welding, standing a little proud of the rail on the right side of the frame. The perp didn't even grind it down properly. Looks like a cold lap also. You could probably pop it right off. I'm curious, was this pistol bought new or used? If it's new, you got the worst machined frame I've ever seen, or some hack attempted a repair. But I don't think those rails were milled and that spot was missed.

[pa_guns]

I'm curious, was this pistol bought new or used?

Hi

Further up the thread the owner mentions that he bought it new via internet auction. Pretty much everybody who looks at it has a hard time believing it's a factory pistol.

Bob

[ArmscorBA]

OK Guys!
SLM, Please send the pistol back to me at:
Armscor Precision
150 N Smart Way
Pahrump, NV 89060
I have had Several " New " Pistols. Let us take a look at it. Please!!
Thanks
Ivan
I will run the serial # and find out when it was made. I'm hoping the serial # starts with a RIA???
We will get it running, Please send some of the ammo as well!!!
Thanks
Ivan

[SLM]

Hi Ivan.

Yes, the serial number starts with RIA. It's RIA 889xxx. Stamped on the side of the frame. I'm leaving for Daytona early Friday morning. Gonna go to the races Friday night, Saturday and Sunday :D (I fell into free tickets, only gotta pay to get there and food) and I won't be home until Wednesday so it'll be a bit, unfortunately.

Got any tips for shipping? I've never shipped a gun, only received them thru my dealer. The gun and ammo can't go together right? Anything else?

Thanks for all the help with this everyone. I really appreciate it all.