Colt 1911 - His Grandfather carried this one!

[cliff731]

A young man over on the Beretta Forum owns this Colt 1911...

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/MyGrandfathers1911Productiondate191.jpg

... and has related the following info and concerns regarding this ole' warhorse...

"My Grandfathers 1911 Colt Production date of 1913, Pre A1. Have 14 origional two tone mags, and shown is his shoulder holster he carried it in, i also have the leg holster, belt, and mag pouch."

And added this in another post...

"Although its not for sale. I spent almost 10 years trying to get that back in the family. If you want to know...ill tell what i gave for it. With all the mags, and 2800rds of military ball ammo in origional boxes, and the gun and holster....all for....shall i say it...$500. I think i did good. Oh, and the mag in the gun had 7 origional 1943 rounds still in it. I got them tucked away. It had some really (edit) cold bluing on it when i got it back and you could hardly see the lettering....so I took my hoppies and soaked a rag in it and rubbed and rubbed and rubbed...it all came off and under it was still some of the origional bluing...which is what looks kind of ugly but ive been told it gives it persoality, and it is what it looked like after all the years of my grandfather carrying it. It also had rust on it but it was just on the surface on the old bluing I enjoyed killing that (edit) cold bluing. I had it almost a year before i took it out....im not sure why. I guess i was afraid of it...no not that i thought it would blow up since its almost 100yrs old. Just...my grandfather once carried it....it gave me goosebumps.... But i was told it would put it to shame if i didnt take her out and let her do what she was made to...so i took it out shortly ago and shot a couple mags through it. For being a "natorious military firearm" its got amazing accuracy."

"But that pistol means alot to me. But id love others to enjoy it too. Can you link the post of it to here...or send it to me so i can see what they think. Oh...what do you asume the value of it to be. "

Okay... our lucky 1911 owner, being a young gun enthusiast, wants to know what his grandfather's pistol is worth. Too, what about all those original magazines and holster?

What about firing his 1911? To do or not to do? He has shot it a few times, and inquired if it was really "safe" to shoot it. Personally, I think he ought to take her out every month or so and pop a few rounds for his Granddad!!!

He also is concerned if all that old ammo is safe to shoot. I don't know the exact age... possibly surplus WWII or post WWII stuff... hoping he sends a pic of one of the ammo boxes later and I'll post.

So... we have a young man here who has been fortunate to re-acquire his Grandfather's original 1911 pistol. He has some questions and needs some help. I figured the best people to provide answers reside right here on this forum!

[exitwounds]

The grips appear to be laquered or vanished. More info such as the markings on the slide, frame, and barrel, the serial number, and certainly better photographs to look at. Shooting should be very limited or not all to preserve the pistol. The old ammo should not be unsafe to shoot, however, Military ammo that is headstamped prior to 1953 is corrosive, and will require special cleaning if it is used, if one does not plan on cleaning it in a reasonable amount of time properly, than it should be avoided. The magazines vary in value depending upon whether they are WW I, WW II, or aftermarket. Markings and photos would help on those also. If it is truly 1913 production, and all original, it may have a premium price. Without better pictures and details, there are to many variables to accurately value the pistol. The value of holster depends upon the manufacturer also.

[Mick_In_Texas]

... has one BEAUTIFUL Colt's 1911 USGI pistol.

Lately, I have indulged in some temporary insanity in re: me carrying my own 1918 contract manufacture, which the good folks, knowledgeable folks here, sure talked me out of as I was myself retreating from the idea: I just so love JMB's original military 1911, and I fear that I will never have a WWI Repro Model, from Colt's. This guy from the Beretta forum--and I have owned two excellent Berettas, both Italian-made, an 84B and a 92F, and wish I still had them, but I don't... is very fortunate, as am I, to have a USGI from WWI in very good condition, and functional. JMB got it right in 1904, 1905, 1910, and 1911. Your guy from the Beretta forum, has the additional advantage over me, that his 1911, has FAMILY history. All the better, for a collectable firearm, as his and my own 1911s are. Mine, has a history, but, I do not know it; probably First Lady saw service in both the U.S. (training) and WWI (France, Germany), due to her wear and Augusta Armory stamping, but, your guy's 1911 has PERSONAL history. I hope he cherishes her. She's a BEAUTY. I love her, and I'm happy for her! And him. Amazing weapon. They are all individuals. Despite them being manufactured en masse, as part of a U.S. Government military contract.

You take care and be safe, and all y'all. Thanks for sharing this here publicly, cliff!

Mick

[cliff731]

Here are some photos of his ammo boxes...

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/100_1554.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/100_1553.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/100_1558.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/100_1556.jpg

He added, "Heres some pics of the ammo. I have two different types of boxes. 4 of the older looking ones and the rest are the nicer looking ones. They are actualy 1942 i thought they were 43. The ones in the boxes have year ranges from 45 through 54 when he got out."

Sounds like some of his ammo might be corrosive.

[Mick_In_Texas]

The grips appear to be laquered or vanished. More info such as the markings on the slide, frame, and barrel, the serial number, and certainly better photographs to look at. Shooting should be very limited or not all to preserve the pistol. The old ammo should not be unsafe to shoot, however, Military ammo that is headstamped prior to 1953 is corrosive, and will require special cleaning if it is used, if one does not plan on cleaning it in a reasonable amount of time properly, than it should be avoided. The magazines vary in value depending upon whether they are WW I, WW II, or aftermarket. Markings and photos would help on those also. If it is truly 1913 production, and all original, it may have a premium price. Without better pictures and details, there are to many variables to accurately value the pistol. The value of holster depends upon the manufacturer also.

Yessir, that ol' military ammo, certainly could be corrosive. My Colt's 1918 mfg 1911, USGI, has only eaten some handloads, modern, factory powder charge, lead roundnose bullets. She sure liked them. She functioned flawlessly, even with the battered ol' magazine she came with. Next time I fire her, she'll be fed standard factory FMJs, good brand, non-corrosive primers/powder.

I was lucky to get her for the price I did. Two gunsmiths checked her out, and after that one (so far) firing, I had the local one give her a detail strip and good cleaning; she looked almost like a new gun. She's got the half-moon grip cutouts, original grips, authentic to her S/N range. She's a beauty. She's defensive/combat made and bred. But, she's special. I feel so close to those, who have the originals... I never believed I'd have one myself, as much as I love the platform. I do, and I'm really, really thankful.

Y'all take care and be safe.
Mick
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/74a139a2.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/cc9c0c7f.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/497861_LMagCutsWGrip.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/USGIHammerL.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/USGIPoster.jpg

[exitwounds]

All the ECS and EC headstamped ammo is corrosive. The WW II Winchester ammo seems to be desirable with many collectors especially in the original boxes. Most pre '53 .45 ammo is corrosive. Remington Arms (RA) ammo lot 5544 dated 9-52 and older is corrosive.Western Cartridge (WCC)ammo Lot 6375 dated 11-52 and older is also corrosive, and Frankford Arsenal (FA) ammo Lot 1542 dated 7-54 and older is corrosive (the M26 FA tracer ammo Lot 41 dated 3-53 and older is corrosive). :)

[cliff731]

Mick in Aggieland... that's one fine post, thanks! Myself, I surely enjoyed looking at those photos of your "First Lady".

Exitwounds... that was some very good information to apply when considering any potential use of the older ball military ammo!

[badsnakeii]

Hi there,
Im the owner of this stallion Cliff was kind enough to post here for me.
I didnt know there was a forum like this for 1911's. I hope it becomes as popular as the beretta site.
Now, about the gun.
I might take some more pics if you guys are interested. Though i will keep the whole SN private. I have already been told its a 1913. But he might have been wrong, so ill post the first number and then x for the rest tomorrow. Now comes the part where im even confused and youll probably tell me its not what he carried in WWII. It does Not have the "government property" stamp on it. It was not parkerised either. It was origionaly dark, deep bluing. Ive been told for sure it is a civilian market gun, but might have been picked up by the gov when they needed them.
If you'd bear with me, ill tell you the story about my grandfather.
He signed up in the army wanting to go fight like many young men. He then got mesils in his eyes and was given a Medical discharge. He wasnt about to give up that easily. He went back and signed up for the air corps. They got his records and told him he would never fly and never go over seas. So he volintered to go through Drill Instructor training. He took up two purposes. He was a DI and a firearms instructor/expert. Im not sure when he got the gun but where he went next he didnt talk much about, being he was from the south. He became the DI for the colored portion of the air corps. He was the DI for the Tuskegie airmen.
Im not sure how he aquired the pistol, all i know is that is the weapon he carried through the war. I know you guys probably think its a piecetime gun, since it never saw combat in WWII, but to me it was, it was his. And ive been told the gun might have been issued even during WWI.
Its hard to say.
I feel as Cliff and the other beretta guys do, it would serve it injustice to not take it out and fire it. Im not afraid of its reliability. If i had to i would trust my life with this gun without even thinking about it.
I can take more pics and try my best as to retracing its history if theres interest, but its about impossible since i never even got the chance to know my grandfather. His brother is still around though.
Oh, the grips were laquered by the guy who put that (edit) cold bluing on it. :mad:
Im not sure what the ammo is worth to a collector. Ive been told just to keep it. Or shoot it and make it even more reliable once again, so it can have the purpose it once had long ago. Defence.
So, what do you guys think.

[Doran]

The RHS of the slide looks to have a commercial rollmark. Absence of a USP mark also might indicate a commercial pistol. Post any letters preceding the serial number.

[OD*]

so ill post the first number and then x for the rest tomorrow.
Post all but the last 2 or 3 numbers if you want time of manufacture to be accurate.

[TattooPaul]

Hey Badsnakeii,
BEAUTY of an original! I have a Repro that I'm very proud of but someday I hope to join the likes of you and Mick and all the others that have original early models. We're I in your shoes I would strip that 1911 down (assuming that you feel comfortable doing so) and replace springs and check parts for cracks, wear, etc. If you're uncomfortable stripping it down to the point that springs can be replaced have a gunsmith do it. If you use a gunsmith you might want to have him inspect the innards for wear and shootability. If, for example, the sear is pretty far gone it mught be worth using replacement parts for shooting, saving the originals for re-assembly to be able to always go back to "all original" insted of rendering an original part unusable. Just a thought - I would certainly shoot 'er after a once over and new springs. Keep that heritage handed to you from your Grandfather alive and well. Congradulations on a FINE piece of history that also has family history as well.

[badsnakeii]

Ive never shot the old stuff in her, just in my springifeld 1911-A1 thats only a couple years old since ive heard the powder can turn into nitro. The colt has only been fired with specialy made hand loads that ive loades specificly for it. They got umpf to them but not hot loaded.
SN= C 88xx
I know the c stands for civilian.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/Edit7.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/Edit6.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/Edit5.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/Edit4.jpg
Since i had it out and apart, i cleaned it and oiled it down. And on a second look that "P" posted in the pic above i belive is a "U".

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/Edit3.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/Edit2.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/Edit1.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/100_1560.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/badsnakeii/100_1561.jpg

Hope there what your looking for.
About the spring codition. I have a Springfield 1911-A1 early tactical responce model, thats only a few years old. And this old colt has heavier springs than my springfield. So i measured them up, and the colt springs are exactly the same if not just a little longer than the newer springfield.
Al in all its a good ol gun.
I Love it.
Thanks for the interest.
Hope someone looks at my pics.

Jarrod M

[exitwounds]

The serial number you posted C88xx is actually 1914 Colt production, not 1913. Serial numbers C5000 - C17300 were made in 1914. The barrel is a replacement. The other markings are typical. The triangle with the P as you called it, is actually a triangle with a VP inside and is Colt's Verified Proof mark signifying that it has passed Colt's final inspection. The holster is pretty common, and often sell in the $50 -$75 range on average. If you fired the corrosive ammo in your new pistol it is still advisable to take the same cleaning precautions. :)

[Mick_In_Texas]

badsnake--

I don't know nearly as much as these other folks about our old pre-1920s Colts and other USGI 1911s; but, sir, I guarantee you, we LOVE seeing your photos here!!! There may be many forums for 1911s, but, THIS one is the best. The folks are great, they're exceedingly helpful and willing to freely share an incredible amount of combined knowledge... I wish I'd gotten my first 1911-platform long before I did (mid-to late-2005); but, I spent a number of months here, just listening, before I got that first one. Also, when I supremely lucked out and got a fully-functional, and very fine condition USGI Colt from mid-to late-1918, the folks here and some links they provided, helped me authenticate it. It's real, and it's original.

If you are going to get into the 1911 platform, THIS is the place to hang out. I say that having been other places. Lots of the folks here are around others, but this place was formed by a Greek gentleman who is a TRUE fan of John Moses Browning and Mr. Browning's 1911--and John (our host) on his main page, links to an incredible amount of information about this veneralable and very viable pistol. Some of the maintenance information will apply to your Berettas--I've learned more about proper inspection and lubrication of ALL pistols here, than about a lifetime of being around shooters, hunters, firearms fans, and even collectors. Believe me, sir, this is a PRICELESS place. And so far, it's FREE! I do contribute from time to time, as I'm just... well. This is my source for links and outright information.

You sure got a beauty from your grandfather. While mine has a history no doubt, YOU know the history of YOURS!!! As special as mine is to me, yours is REALLY special to you, sir.

Here's something you might enjoy: these are the Colt's 1905 and 1910 commercial model "45 Caibre Automatics". They are the production predecesors to our 1911s:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/5e0c58d3.gif
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/6066a8f0.gif
Interesting to note that they DON'T have the plunger tube and thumb safety!

I loved the two Berettas I had--Italian-made and imported 84B and 92F (pre-U.S. DOD contract)... from the early 80s. Wish I still had them. I was very strongly tempted several months ago by a ss 92F, modern-manufacture... as well as a weird brand P38 9mm (not Walther's) Friday at my FFL's gunshop picking up a new Colt's .45. Oh, well...

Sir, welcome to this forum, too! And thanks for those great pictures. I love seeing this kind of stuff.

You take care and be safe.
Mick

[exitwounds]

Mick, Most 1910 models were later retrofitted with a thumb safety.

[exitwounds]

Badsnakeii, is the holster an M3 or an M7? The M3 was made from '42 - '45, and would be worth a little more.

[badsnakeii]

M3 holster.
But like i said....the value doesnt mean much but for insurance purposes. :)
I Love my little piece of history.
So, for insurance purposes. Knowing that the barrel is one he probably put in there since he had access to the base armory in alabama. And the holster is an m3, and the 14 mags are all two tone some have some wear but most look like they've never been in a gun. And the finish ist the greatest, and the grips have been laquered. Whats its value.
Thanks
Jarrod M

[Mick_In_Texas]

Mick, Most 1910 models were later retrofitted with a thumb safety.
...just interesting to note that originally they didn't have them. Wouldn't fly in today's litigation-mad society; I think also of some of JMB's FN/Belgium pistols, like the Model 1900 (.32 ACP, I believe) that was used by the assasin that started WWI by shooting the Kaiser and his lady. Mr. Browning favored carrying either .32 ACP cals or .22s, in his pistols in Utah. But he was one heckuva designer. He KNEW guns, the practical side/usage as well as the functional/design side... too bad he finally parted ways with Winchester, and had to go to Colt's and FN/Belguim... he had basically revitalized Winchester for 20 years, prior to 1900.

But, I believe OD* here shared those 1905 and 1910 models with me; it is just really odd to see a pistol, single action or not, with NO thumb safety! Pretty bizarre for us modern afficiandos! Boy, though, I LOVE the 1911 platform... Most of all, of all of mine, First Lady, my USGI Colt's 1911. What a design, and what a platform. What a caliber.

You take care and be safe, sir.
Mick

[Mick_In_Texas]

M3 holster.
But like i said....the value doesnt mean much but for insurance purposes. :)
I Love my little piece of history.
So, for insurance purposes. Knowing that the barrel is one he probably put in there since he had access to the base armory in alabama. And the holster is an m3, and the 14 mags are all two tone some have some wear but most look like they've never been in a gun. And the finish ist the greatest, and the grips have been laquered. Whats its value.
Thanks
Jarrod M

...cannot be measured in DOLLARS. It's measured in that gun's history: your granddaddy's, where it went with him, how he used it. My 1911 doesn't have that "link", that "attachment". YOUR pistol, this one, your granddaddy's... the value just isn't measured in appraisals or "markets" or things like that.

My dad has my stepgranddaddy's old S&W .38 Special revolver, and his USGI holster for the .38 Special. Is that revolver and that holster "worth some money"? Prob. But, what is the REAL value of it, its history, its heritage, knowing my stepgrandfather was an LEO, in the late 30s and early 40s, too old to be called up for WWII, like my dad? I had a guy at work today, wanting me to set a price on my USGI Colt's 1911 made in 1918, and he didn't get it. He couldn't understand why I did NOT want to sell First Lady. Don't care, really, whether he does or doesn't. I know she's worth more--in the condition she's in--than I paid for her, but, doesn't matter, sir. To me, her value is PRICELESS. Your granddaddy's ol' 1911, magazines, and holster, are PRICELESS. There is no monetary value on them. Yes, you could get money for them; but, what is that worth, really, sir? You're connected to that firearm by family, by heritage... and that to me has no monetary value, because it's above money, and priceless.

Just my two cents's worth, snake, for your consideration. Just a thought. You take care and be safe, snake.

Mick

[TattooPaul]

Same goes for the Colt Python that I took possession of after my Dad passed. It my be a late '70s to early '80's (more likely early '80s) but it's a beautifully made, accurate pistol and most important, it was HIS. The value is nothing additional to anyone but me but me it is priceless.
Yes; your 1911 has a material value; and I, too, wonder what that is out of curiosity but it truly is priceless in your hands...
The only way the other price has any relevance is if you were to sell it, or for trivial knowledge.

[exitwounds]

Mick, if you go to www.coltautos.com and click the drop down to Colt Model 1910 .45 ACP you will see serial number 2 and number 6 fitted with the thumb safety, you are correct they were not original to the pistol, if you look at my thread you will see I said retrofitted. The sn#2 shows the pistol stripped and you can see the thumb safety well. BTW, the model 1900 was a .38 ACP.

[Mick_In_Texas]

Mick, if you go to www.coltautos.com and click the drop down to Colt Model 1910 .45 ACP you will see serial number 2 and number 6 fitted with the thumb safety, you are correct they were not original to the pistol, if you look at my thread you will see I said retrofitted. The sn#2 shows the pistol stripped and you can see the thumb safety well. BTW, the model 1900 was a .38 ACP.

It is amazing to see these old Model 1910s! Thank you for the link... I've been there in the past, didn't know how to navigate the site... I see that on S/N 2 (and that is an amazing S/N! Can you imagine?)... Fascinating that they could retrofit the thumb safeties...

Ah--.38 ACP!!! Isn't that, too, what the .38 Super was competing with, since it was already available when the .38 Super was put into production? I've got to get my JMB book out again...

Thank you for the link, and the Model 1900 clarification. Interesting that a Browning design more or less started WWI, which also pretty much gave "birth" to the Model 1911 .45 ACP Auto... and made it first famous and highly-desired. Do you know what pistol General John "Blackjack" Pershing's troops carried in the Mexican Punitive Expidition? I've heard there were several "1911s" in service, but, not having yet acquired a Clawson's Third, I find that a point of question.

Not to get too off topic, here, though... badsnake's inheritance sure is a beauty, and it appears to be in really good shape. exit, your guidance (along with many others's here) and learning all this history of development, is a LARGE part of the secondary fascination and love I have for this platform. Thank you.

Mick

[exitwounds]

The 1911's played a major role with the Cavalry during the Mexican Punitive Action. It was the last time that horse-mounted troops would play a significant role in an American military operation.

[Mick_In_Texas]

The 1911's played a major role with the Cavalry during the Mexican Punitive Action. It was the last time that horse-mounted troops would play a significant role in an American military operation.

So, they were 1911 models. I've looked around on that link you gave me tonight, off and on. Reckon they could have been. Far as horse-mounted cavalry, yessir, by the time we got into WWI, that was pretty much history. The world changed on folks. For good or bad, and I think maybe not for good, with mustard gas, tanks, machine guns, whatever... but, despite the enemy's protests in re: the 1911 and 12-gauge shotgun, they were the ones using mustard gas and chemical warfare, not the Allies and the Americans with their .45s and 12-gauges. What a history badsnakeii's and my 1911s must have, sir.

I love John Moses Browning. He was a genius with common sense. Kinda rare nowadays. The 1911/A1 is a viable, brilliant design, and still viable for sure in the 21st century. I love it. It is nearly my ONLY pistol choice. And if that Colt's O1991 proves functional and reliable, there may be a NEW primary carry on my hip. But, First Lady, my USGI Colt's 1911 from 1918, and badsnake's granddaddy's 1911, those beauties RULE. Give me a 1911/A1 any day of the week for defense/carry. Preferrably in .45 ACP, although I LOVE my Colt's .38 Super 1911A1 Govt Model. I'd choose her over a 9mm/.357 Mag/.38 Special any day. Besides, she fits the same holsters my other 1911s do...

Mick

[TattooPaul]

Ditto to Mick's thoughts! I have grown into a BIG fan of this platform as well and have spent much time reading and learning here (and elsewhere). This forum and it's members are an awesome resource.

Snake: you can get good info regarding your Grandpappy's 1911's origin by giving a call to Kathy at Colt at 1-800-962-Colt. She can pin down the manufacture date and where it shipped to from the factory. She can't help with value questions but it's interesting info. They can also sent you a sealed letter of origin for a fee ('round 100 bucks, I've heard) that details the historical origin of your pistol. In the case of this particular situation that might be pretty cool - have a formal letter with a Colt seal embossed on it describing the manufacture and shipping of your ol' 1911 and frame it. Check out the site here at Colt's Archive Services: http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/historical.asp, might be really worthwhile in your case!

[OD*]

Paul,

Unfortunatley, Kathy is no longer with Colt. :(

[TattooPaul]

Wow, that must be a recent development. Does that put a hold on archival info and the letters I mentioned?

[OD*]

Does that put a hold on archival info and the letters I mentioned?
No sir, Kathy did not work in the Archive Department.

[TattooPaul]

Thanks. Do you know if we can still call that number and get the same origin and shipping info, just that it won't be Kathy anymore?

[OD*]

Thanks. Do you know if we can still call that number and get the same origin and shipping info, just that it won't be Kathy anymore?
Yes sir, you will still get the same help and info, it just won't be Kathy helping you.

[TattooPaul]

As always, thanks for your help and the heads up. Enjoy the rest of your evening, OD...

[OD*]

You're welcome sir.
Thank you and the same to you Paul.

[okcorral1881]

Unfortunatley, Kathy is no longer with Colt.

WHAT!!!!!:nono: :( !

OD*! Don't tell me she moved to North Carolina!:D

[OD*]

I believe she is still in the State of Connecticut. ;)