Ideal 1911 for police carry?

[TOASTERLOCKER]

First I just want to say what a great forum this is. I've been browsing for info for a long time and just joined recently.

I signed up here so I could ask what you all think would be the IDEAL police duty 1911. Here are a few factors in my search:

Reliability: This trumps EVERYTHING else, for obvious reasons. This is more important than any other factor I mention. Not only would I like to be mechanically reliable, I would like to have a VERY durable finish. I haven't heard of any 1911s made with the glock/walther style tennifer finish, but something close to that quality will do.

Cost: I will NOT spend more than $1000. I just can't rationalize spending more than that when there are so many quality duty guns available for far less than that. I don't need a gold-plated target pistol.

Size/Weight: Don't really care. I'm a big guy (6'1", 250 lbs) so big, heavy guns are fine by me. I'd even say I prefer that for recoil reduction. I have an all stainless steel S&W 4506 that I don't feel is too heavy or big at all.

Single stack, single action only: I like the more traditional style and feel.

Also, pretty much all I can find around here are Springfields and Kimbers, so my options are a little limited. I would just assume get something I can go pick up myself at the store, but if one of you has a far better suggestion, I will find a way to get it.

That is all I can think of for now. I'll add more if I can think of anything. Any suggestions are appreciated! Thanks!

[deputymeaux]

Like you, when I decided to carry a 1911 on duty I needed to keep the cost to a minumum. I passed on the Kimbers due all the negative comments about the use of MIM parts.
I did carry a Springfield for a time and do not have anything bad to say about it.
I had been reading about Wilson combat for some time and I gave them a call one day. Lo and behold, I found out that Wilson will give an LE discount!
Needless to say I've been carrying my Wilson CQB for about 5 years now. It came with all the customization that I would ever do to one including nightsights. It's scary accurate.
My suggestion to you would be to really shop around and if possible, add to your gun budget a little. I don't regret that I did. Good luck! :)

[dforth]

I don't know about your area of the country, but I've seen SA's going from $750.00 up depending on whether you wanted a rail or not. Kimbers are about the same price wise. I'm looking at a used, very little wear Stainless Kimber with the light rail for $750.00 at a local shop. I've seen Para's going for around $600.00 and up too. One of the things that I really like about the 1911 is that most street thugs don't have a clue how to get the safety off (giving one time to draw and use a BUG). For that matter, neither do many LEO's unless they're familiar with them, but that's beside the point. They were made to replace the double action .38 revolver as a sidearm for the U.S. Army for two reasons: 1. Reliability and 2. Better stopping power. The M1911 and M1911-A1 served our nations military forces for 75 years and is being issued yet again to the U.S.M.C.

The Army had been interested in going back to the enhanced M1911-A1 along with the Marine Corps and USSOCOM under the project heading of the Joint Services Pistol until recently when they pulled out. SOCOM pulled out too, but still ordered in the neighborhood of 600 pistols. They don't know what pistol platform they will use in the future, but they know it will be in .45 ACP. The Army's spokesman stated that they are possibly looking at a .40 caliber (According to Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement). One thing is very clear, they do not like the 9mm.

[POPO22]

I have carried a 1911 (or clone) for the past 11 or 12 years exclusively, and never looked back. I am considerably smaller in stature than you and many of the modern pistol designs simply do not feel right in my hand. Many of the "major" companies will be able to accomodate your budget in either a 5" (full size) or "Commander" size gun. I chose a ss in my "duty-weapon" because of potentially less finish maintanance and because I got a good deal on mine. I prefer the "Blued" or darker finishes (Parkerized is OK but scratches with a lot of "wear and tear"), I look at them as a tool and really don't care for the "two-tone" contrast.(to each his own)

Colt, Kimber, Para, SA, S&W, all have models that will fit your requirements, its just a matter of choice for you. I've been pleased with all the Para's and SA's I bought (I would like to get a Colt in the future) and I know numerous officers who have been very happy with their Kimbers(I've shot a few and they seemed nice). I know that Para and SA both have excellent "customer service" departments but can't speak for the others. If you look around I think you can probably get the "lower to Middle of the road" models pretty close to your price range (if you don't mind "second hand", even more so) .
Good Luck

[Hunter]

You might look at the Colt Series 70 repo. They are basic Government Models that just work within your budget.
Any pistol I carry must be proven (though I am not a LEO) I carry regular.
I would give Colt a close look, very few MIM parts (sear and disconnector I believe), forged frames and slides, excellent quality, and it is a Colt.

[OD*]

The Army had been interested in going back to the enhanced M1911-A1 along with the Marine Corps and USSOCOM under the project heading of the Joint Services Pistol until recently when they pulled out.
I beleive they were requesting DAO or DA.
3.4.1. Action: The JCP shall function in double action/single action (DA/SA) or double-action only (DAO) including Striker-Fired Action (SFA) (T). The JCP should have a modular action mechanism that allows reconfiguration at the unit level without modification to the weapon’s major assemblies (O).

http://fs2.fbo.gov/EPSData/ODA/Synopses/27191/H92222-05-R-0017/Attch01JCPspec080905.doc

[Hawkmoon]

You REALLY want the 1911 that's essentially made-to-order for LEO duty carry? Behold:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_kz45.asp

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/images2/KZ%20Full%20Right%20w%20back.jpg
11 rounds in a grip frame narrower than a traditional single stack 1911, and a polymer grip frame that you don't have to worry about rusting or scratching. No, it isn't a double stack. It's more like a "stack and a half."

[auto45]

You would have thought guns like the Wilson and STI, plastic frames with less weight and increased capacity would have taken the "lead" in LEO 1911's...in theory anyway.

But, all I "read" with the Marines, FBI, recommended 1911's from SWAT teams are all singlestack, steel, 5" 1911s. I have to believe it's more than the singlestack "feel" as STI's are pretty close, haven't picked up the Wilson.
Different feel, of course, but close enough for many I'd guess.

I wonder if it's the "historical" feeding problems with doublestack mags in ACP?

[TOASTERLOCKER]

You REALLY want the 1911 that's essentially made-to-order for LEO duty carry? Behold:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_kz45.asp

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/images2/KZ%20Full%20Right%20w%20back.jpg
11 rounds in a grip frame narrower than a traditional single stack 1911, and a polymer grip frame that you don't have to worry about rusting or scratching. No, it isn't a double stack. It's more like a "stack and a half."

Have any of you actually had a chance to shoot this gun? It sounds VERY interesting.

I'm beginning to think a good choice would be the S&W 1911PD with rail. From what I can tell it is the only 1911 out there with a melonite finish (like Glock's tennifer), which is far superior to any other finish choices. Otherwise, I've heard good things about S&W 1911s in general, and it is actually reasonably priced.

[Rich-D]

Police departments prefer a firearm that is standard for uniform & plainclothes officers. It also has the added advantage for off duty carry, And that being a 4" barrel.

[UC1911XSE]

You can check galleryofguns.com to compare prices between all of the guns that are being recommended on this thread. The site will find three shops in your area with three different prices in most cases. I have used this site and it works very well. The customer service was great.

[TOASTERLOCKER]

Police departments prefer a firearm that is standard for uniform & plainclothes officers. It also has the added advantage for off duty carry, And that being a 4" barrel.

I'm aware of that, thanks. But if I ever were to end up at a department where I could use a gun of my choice (it does happen some places) I would like one that is well-suited to the job.

[RABULL]

Take a look at the Colt 1911 XSE models. I have recently purchased two of them and they are well under $1,000 and they work very well. I did send one of them to Novak's for some work but it was not really needed. I carry it on and off duty and really like it......

[Hawkmoon]

Have any of you actually had a chance to shoot this gun? It sounds VERY interesting.
I assume this was asking about the Wilson KZ pistol?

We have not tested it here at M1911.ORG but, if a number of our LEO members express an interest, we might be able to persuade Wilson to lend us one for testing.

I don't know if they have or plan to offer it with an integral light rail, but you could certainly call or e-mail Wilson to inquire.

[OD*]

It would be worth testing Hawk, a friend of mine has the KZ-45 Compact, very impressive pistol.

[UC1911XSE]

Take a look at the Colt 1911 XSE models. I have recently purchased two of them and they are well under $1,000 and they work very well. I did send one of them to Novak's for some work but it was not really needed. I carry it on and off duty and really like it......

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t89/skavros/DPP_0002.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t89/skavros/DPP_0001.jpg

I just purchased a Colt XSE Government model and love it. It shoots straight right out of the box. Paid $850 for it before tax and license.

[johnlaw484]

My department issued the Glock (Yuck) .40 S&W Model 22 while I was carrying my old Remington Rand 1911 that I carried in Nam.
As range instructor I went on a campaign to allow deputies carry the .45 acp. The powers to be finally relented 5 years ago thus I brought a Kimber TLE in stainless. I have never been disappointed.
Everyones favorite is what they carry. My daughter is a deputy in an ajoining county and carries the Springfield Custom Loaded 1911. My son is a federal officer and carries the Colt. Whatever pulls your chain. I have been hearing some good thing about the Taurus PT 1911.

Just remember as with any new firearm. Shoot it and shoot it alot (breakin) before you stake your life on it.
Regards
Johnlaw484 :lh:

[bill may]

Rich-D and Johnlaw484, what departments are you on? I am on Jefferson County, Ky. (Louisville). 400 deputies (full-time and reserve). We are not a full service law enforcement agency. We let the Louisville Metro PD do that, and supplement them when they are busy or take the needed action if we stumble across something that needs taking care of while on duty. We have regular, full police powers under state law, we just do not take the lead in patrol, criminal investigations, etc. like a regular PD.

[joebob]

Check out a Dan Wesson Commander Classic - Bobtail, or the Pointman 7. You'll love eithei one.

[Hawkmoon]

I signed up here so I could ask what you all think would be the IDEAL police duty 1911.
Wilson Combat KZ-45

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/handguns/kz/large/06.jpg

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_kz45.asp

[TOASTERLOCKER]

Hawkmoon, did you just feel like posting another picture? You already suggested it back in April.

[Hawkmoon]

I was responding to what I thoiught was a new question. Didn't notice how old the thread was.

[rnjj1219]

Between the Kimbers and Springers you can't go wrong for a reliable daily carry weapon. You don't need to knock a ragged hole in paper at 25-50 yards when most encounters are within 7 feet (if I recall the stats correctly). At $1000 you can get a Kimber TLE, used by LA SWAT, or a Springfield Loaded.

[TOASTERLOCKER]

Ya know, the funny thing about the KZ-45 is that I've only heard horrible things about since it was initially suggested. It sounds like a great idea that was poorly executed.

In fact, I was recently at Gunsite doing some training, and I noticed that they had a framed letter in one of their buildings from a SWAT department (can't recall which one) thanking Gunsite for helping them get rid of their KZ-45s and replacing them with something else (some sort of high end 1911, don't recall what it was.)

Honestly, as soulless as they may be, I think I will probably stick with a Glock for duty carry. Mostly because they are simpler (especially important to me with complex LE retention holsters), and I won't be heart broken if it gets beat up.

[DSgt31]

The "best" is the one you can shoot, manipulate, holster, reholster, reload, disassemble, reassemble, and most importantly, feel confident with.

Brands, safeties, features, advertising, etc. are all secondary.

the best advice I can give is if it feels good in the hand, and you can shoot it straighter than others, buy/steal/whine/cry/beg/plead/plot to get it.

Caveat Emptor

[MFC]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet. Hilton Yam has a very informative article entitled Choosing a 1911 for Duty Use (http://10-8performance.com/id8.html) It is definitely a good read for anyone thinking of carrying a 1911 as a primary duty gun.

Good luck and stay safe,

-Matt

[Rich-D]

Rich-D and Johnlaw484, what departments are you on? I am on Jefferson County, Ky. (Louisville). 400 deputies (full-time and reserve).

I was with the Camden City NJ PD, I retired early by necessity, due to an on duty injury. We were a very active PD, We lost three to gunfire out of 300 in my first year. Philadelphia PA would have to lose 700 to gunfire to have the same percentage. I moved back to my home town Philly after retirement. However owning two taverns and living on the edge of a high crime area, keeps me in the police mode.


Rich

[torrejon224]

You mentioned the S&W 1911 with rail. I have had one since they first came out, it's the black melonite one and it hasn't failed me once. Round count at this point is in excess of 5,000. The only thing I changed was to toss the stock mags and replace them with Wilsons or Tripp Cobra Mags. The Riverside Ca. Sheriff issues these to their SWAT personnel so I'm sure they did extensive testing and liked what they saw. I paid $705 for mine and another $100 give or take to replace the mags so this would put you under the $1,000 you mentioned.

[JSGlock34]

+1 on the great article over at the 10-8 Forums on choosing a 1911 for Duty Use by Hilton Yam. Another poster on 10-8 had a similar inquiry to yours and received some excellent advice in this thread. (http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=61706&an=0&page=0#61706)

Bottom line - any 1911 under the $1000 mark has made compromises to get there. It's no accident that the FBI issues $2000 Springfield Professional Models to its SWAT Teams, and that the Marines bought large numbers of a similar model. MIM parts are an example of the type of compromise that manufactuers make in order to keep costs down. I don't think you can find a sub $1000 1911 without MIM parts. Now there's good MIM and bad MIM - but I've had MIM parts break on a 1911. YMMV.

I'd look at the Springfield Parkerized Loaded PX9109LP and the Kimber TLE. Both come with night sights. The Springfield grips and the ILS mainspring housing are probably unsuitable for duty use, and you might want to change them out. The Kimber comes with decent rubber grips, but many are not fans of the Series 2 firing pin safety. That said, LAPD SWAT uses the TLE and is apparently pleased.

As time went on, I'd consider replacing small MIM parts with forged parts from Ed Brown, Wilson or other reputable vendors.

Good luck!

[Slingshot]

+1 on the great article over at the 10-8 Forums on choosing a 1911 for Duty Use by Hilton Yam. Another poster on 10-8 had a similar inquiry to yours and received some excellent advice in this thread. (http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=61706&an=0&page=0#61706)

Bottom line - any 1911 under the $1000 mark has made compromises to get there. It's no accident that the FBI issues $2000 Springfield Professional Models to its SWAT Teams, and that the Marines bought large numbers of a similar model. MIM parts are an example of the type of compromise that manufactuers make in order to keep costs down. I don't think you can find a sub $1000 1911 without MIM parts. Now there's good MIM and bad MIM - but I've had MIM parts break on a 1911. YMMV.

I'd look at the Springfield Parkerized Loaded PX9109LP and the Kimber TLE. Both come with night sights. The Springfield grips and the ILS mainspring housing are probably unsuitable for duty use, and you might want to change them out. The Kimber comes with decent rubber grips, but many are not fans of the Series 2 firing pin safety. That said, LAPD SWAT uses the TLE and is apparently pleased.

As time went on, I'd consider replacing small MIM parts with forged parts from Ed Brown, Wilson or other reputable vendors.

Good luck!


+1

Sad but true...but you get what you pay for more often than not.

Slingshot

[golddot]

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t89/skavros/DPP_0002.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t89/skavros/DPP_0001.jpg

I just purchased a Colt XSE Government model and love it. It shoots straight right out of the box. Paid $850 for it before tax and license.


great weapon! did it come with the ambi sfty?