Arched mainspring housings

[Dan Hankins]

I am a newbie as far as any version of the 1911 is concerned. Wanted one for a long time and things came together and I had a chance to buy a Taurus PT1911. Looks like a fair deal for the dollars invested.

I have hopes to shoot it in competition. My other pistols are fine european Target pellet guns. They all have ergonomic grips of some kind. and a Ruger MKII with 5" bull barrel and Hogue grips. My competition os genrally not official, but usually a gatereing of like minded folks in this area (Southwest Missouri) and Northwest Arkansas.

The problem I am having with the PT-1911 is that when held in an offhand shooting position, one handed, the front sights are low. This in addition to the pistol wanting to shoot low at 25 yards with several different kinds of ammo has me tring to use a center hold at 25 yards. I have used a center hold and prefer a sub six hold for my other pistols.

I see 1911 pistols with an arched spring housing. I think this might bring the front sight up. BUT, I do not know if an arched housing will fit the PT1911.

I have been researching grips and find the Fong grips, Morini, and Herrets that appear to be similar to what I have been used to. However they are a bit pricy for me at this time.

Do you think that an arched mainsprng housing and a Houge grip with finger grooves would be a good choice to get me into a grip that can be shot off hand. My normal grip size is medium.

I have no intention of using the PT1911 for concealed carry. I have used target style grips for long enough that I am confortable with them for a personal protection gun.

Having a hard time with a two hand hold as I learned to shoot off hand and this is all new to me. I see the value of the two hand grip as a defensive grip against multiple targets, and would probably use it in a self defense situation at close range. But all I really want to do is shoot target with this pistol so that will be its main purpose in life.

Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Respectfully,
Dan Hankins
in Southwest Missouri

[John]

Well, I am not sure. The military asked for the arched main spring housing for that reason, to help the pistol aim higher (at least that's what I remember). However, for me, either arched or flat, I can't see any difference.

Oh and welcome on board.

[Canuck-IL]

Any decent quality arched MSH should fit w/o problems...it's about all the closer one can get to a true drop-in part. WIth a proper grip it should help you point higher.

The Hogue's w finger grooves are very much a personal taste thing...they'll thicken up the grip width and some find that makes it too bulky. Also, the spacing of the grooves is not optimal for all. They're cheap enough that it's probably worth experimenting but you'll likely see someone at the range with a pair that you could try for feel before buying.
/Bryan

[RickB]

The arched housing affects the "pointing" characteristics of the pistol. The grip plays no part in sight alignment or sight picture, so I'm not sure what you are trying to do; you want your hand to be positioned differently when the sights are on target? Most European "target" pistols that I've seen have very steeply raked grips, so the 1911 grip will feel different. I find a flat mainspring housing makes the gun point very low for me, but in deliberate, aimed fire, I just rotate the gun upward until it is on target.
Depending on the depth of the rear sight notch, you can shorten the front sight to bring the point of impact up to where you want it. The problem, if you prefer a 6 o'clock hold, is that you can select only one adjustment, for a given load, on a given target, at a given range, which then might not be correct for any other load or distance. That's why guns for shooting things other than bullseyes have sights adjusted to give a general POA/POI coincidence, maybe an inch high up close and an inch low at greater distances, so you can aim at the target and get good hits, regardless of the load or the distance (within reason). You don't want a gun that might be used for defense, to be hitting three or four inches above your point of aim, as you would when shooting bullseye.
I find fingergroove grips to never have the grooves where I need them, and if your hands are medium sized, I'd bet the groove are too far apart for you, too. Also, if your hands are medium-sized, you probably don't want to do anything to increase the circumference of the grip, such as adding a thick rubber cover over the frontstrap. Pearce makes a modular rubber grip, with separate panels for the sides, and a front strap insert that can be used with the side panels, or left off; you migh try experimenting with that.

[dakota1911]

I love gas passers also. I can get a little over 50 ft. up my covered patio and almost 50 ft. when I shoot across the dining room into the living room and use the fireplace as a backstop. Makes a rainy day almost fun.

Anyway, I was just comparing my Taurus PT1911 to a Colt Gold Cup I own and it looks like it would not be an issue to put an arched mainspring housing on it.

[Dan Hankins]

Want to thank ya'll for all the information in your replies to my question.

Rick B.
I once had the pleasure of having a genuine target pistol grip maker and fitter as a guest at my home for about 10 days. He is known more in the air gun world but has worked with some free pistol shooters. Seaton Thomas "Gripman" was a real character and very talented. While he was here he worked over several of my grips on my target pistols. He would look at my hand, and then take the Dremel tool with a sanding disc and make a small adjustment to the grip by removing some wood. Then he would have me hold the pistol in a shooting possition and tell him if the sights were aligned. I would report that the sight pictiure had the front sight slightly to the right of center. He would look at my hand on the grip and then take the grip and remove a little wood and as if by magic, the sights would line up. This can take several repetitions to get it right, but by working with the ergonomic relation of my hand to the grip, he could put the sights on target by altering the grip. You gotta have a consistant grip yourself or this is a waste of time energy and effort. But by that time my grip and stance had been fairly well established.

I believe that shooting well with a pistol of any kind is a process of eliminating as many variables as possible. There is enough to think about in order to make a good shot. So in answer to your question about what I am looking for, I want the pistol, when gripped and ready to fire, in a one handed position, to have a sight picture that has the sights aligned each and every time.

I agree that the Hogue grips with the finger groves may be too fat and including the curved Spring housing would add more grith to the grips. Fortunately I have a gun dealer real cclose to the house and he shoots a 1911 and understands what I want. He should have some Hougue grips in soon and will let me try them. He has already offered to let me try some different front barrel bushings as the fit on my Taurus is a little looser thant the only one I have ever looked closely at which was a Wilson barrel and fitted bushing. Kinda high standards but I did shoot a 1911 series 70 that had a bunch of Wilson parts in it and it shot better in my hands than my Taurus. It had a Bianchi wrap around grip with finger groves. I have not been able to find a source for those Bianchi grips.

I shoot air pistol and rifle at 10 m down the hall way of my house. Got lucky and it is a split bedroom with one one one end of the house and two on the other. I have no children and the wife is OK with my indoor shooting. My "range" is exactly to specifications of the 10 m olympic style range as far as length and height of target and lighting. Got to be an expert with spackeling compound at first, patching holes in the wall, but haven't hit outside the trap in a long time now.

Sorry about the long and rambeling post. Persons of a certain age do tend to ramble on.

Thank you each and all for the advise. I appreciate it.

Respectfully,
Dan Hankins
AKA Bubba on air gun forums

[John]

Ah how true. If every shooter could start his career with the 10 m Olympic style air pistol, we would see much more holes on the targets. That and the .22 LR should be the way to introduce a new shooter to our sport. Why I didn't listen, when I was young???

[Dan Hankins]

Esteemed El Comandante,
I did not start with 10 m pistols and rifles until I was in my late 40s. I am now 59. I am not a very good shot with 10 m air pistols with and average of averages at 85% of a possible. Sometimes getting into ther low 90s for a 10 shot string. But I shoot a lot, and keep a log of the scores, any changes made and so forth. Progress was sometimes so slow that keeeping a record was the only way to see progress.

I really believe that trigger time is beneficial to the shooting of any pistol and is helpful in making a transition from pellet to rimfire and centerfire pistols.

I sometimes shoot at an unsupervised range owned by the state, about 20 miles from the house. I was shooting my Ruger MKII there one day and kept getting advise from the shooters there. They could not see the holes in the black at 25 and 50 yards that I was shooting off hand. Very helpful folks kept interupting and telling me that I needed to use two hands and maybe I could hit the target. One suggested that I start from the bench. Finally I called a cold range and retrieved my targets to show the most persistant advisor that I was shooting in the black. This is partly a product of where I live and where I was shooting. These folks were sincerely trying to be helpful. Just did not understand what I was doing.

My first experience with a 1911 was only about three weeks ago and I was able to shoot it off hand. Only shot about three clips with a fine 1911 that a friend had. Off hand with his pistol, first time at a B-8 center at 25 yards five of five in the black. Then tried 50 yards and got a group of four in about 6" outside diameter with one unaccountable flier, off hand again. Now I know some of this was beginners luck, some of it was the quality of the pistol and the coaching of my friend who shot Bull's Eye many years ago.

As we shoot tiny targets at 10 m. with fine pistols, the large center fire targets appeared too easy. Not the case I have found out.

As regards personal protection, I am able to keep a clip of 8 rounds in an 8 1/2" X 11" sheet of paper at about 15 feet as fast as I can pull the trigger on the Taurus PT1911. I was dissapointed at this degree of accuracy until my friend/coach held the sheet of paper up to my chest, demonstrating that all shots would be debilitating to the shootee. Probably would have done as well with one hand, but it takes a little longer to return reaquire the target with these .45s.

But I am learning. I am searching for competition in Southwest Missouri or Northwest Arkansas. Cutting back on spending to buy ammo as I am suffering a little sticker shock at the cost of ammo. You can buy 5,000 rounds of the best target pellets made for under $100.00.

I am done now.

Respectfully,
Dan Hankins

[John]

Oh yes, you are absolutely right, it's never to late to start the right practice. Can you please take over my twins for the next year or so? LoRL.

Dan you are of course so right, there is no replacement for trigger time.

[Dan Hankins]

To anyone interested in my solution to my percieved problem of low front sight alignment with the OEM PT1911 grips, here's what I did.

Went to my neighborhood gun dealer, the guy I bought the Taurus from, and tried a Springfield 1911 with an arched mainspring housing and wood grips. This resolved the position of the front sight, raising the front sight to a near perfect sight picture. Then he suggested that I try a pair of the Hogue grips with finger groves. We put the Hogue grips on the PT1911 and this seemed to bring the front sight up as well. So, for less than $20.00 I settled for the Hogue grips. I think that this combination will work well. The Hogue grips are a tight fit, requiring considerable strength to strech them to fit over the grip spacers that go through the frame. The Hogue grips have a metal liner in the holes for the grip screws and the stock grip screws seem to work fine.

Got lucky and the finger groves are in the right place for may hands.

The only problem is that if you are not paying attention to grip position and just grab the pistol, you may wind up with the front sight out of the rear notch to the right. This is where grip familiarity will come into play. I have found that I can feel whether I have the correct grip and can easily correct this. Given some time and more use the correct hold will be quickly and consistantly aquired.

Just one way to look at it. We all have personal preferences and hand sizes that vary a lot. So your results may (will likely) vary.

Discalimer:
I do not work for Hogue or any person or business that sells Hogue. I do not recieve any money or anything of value for my opinions from anyone. Same for Taurus. My opinions are my own and based on my own personal hands on experience. I am not an expert shooter or gunsmith. Just an old guy that thinks, like lot of middle and past middle aged men that the world needs to know what he thinks.

Respectfully,
Dan Hankins
Learner

[Hawkmoon]

Dan, I find that FOR ME a 1911 with a straight mainspring housing points very naturally. But that's because I haven't shot much other than 1911s since so long ago that any muscle memory from other handguns (revolvers, in the old days) has long since retired and moved south. Shoot the 1911 a bit and I think you'll find that it becomes like an extension of your arm.

The proof for me was a couple or three weeks back when I took a pistol I was tinkering with to the range to function check. Once I get it running reliably I intend to Gun Kote the slide, so for the moment it isn't wearing sights. I shot a couple of magazines rapid fire at 15 yards, and kept everything in the 9 ring.

I'll take it.

[sonofsarge]

Your Honesty And Humility Are Quite Refreshing. Sometimes, There Are Those Among Us Who Are A Little Too Adamant In Their "expert" Opinions. Thank You, Sir.

[Dan Hankins]

Dan, I find that FOR ME a 1911 with a straight mainspring housing points very naturally. But that's because I haven't shot much other than 1911s since so long ago that any muscle memory from other handguns (revolvers, in the old days) has long since retired and moved south. Shoot the 1911 a bit and I think you'll find that it becomes like an extension of your arm.

The proof for me was a couple or three weeks back when I took a pistol I was tinkering with to the range to function check. Once I get it running reliably I intend to Gun Kote the slide, so for the moment it isn't wearing sights. I shot a couple of magazines rapid fire at 15 yards, and kept everything in the 9 ring.

I'll take it.
Hawkmoon,
You make a very good point regarding muscle memory, as well as familiarity with the pistol.

I have been guilty, in the past of trading off or selling rifles or pistols soon after I got them, because I thought they did not handle well for me. When the real story was that I had not taken the time to learn the pistol. It would take a while for me to list all the 10 m pistols I have tried and then traded, and finally found out that the deficiencies in performance was much more the shooter than the pistol. Guess we can all fall victum to the instant gratification thing that our society seems to me moving toward.

Thanks to the help of ya'll and my friend the "Grip Man" and some other shooters and persons whose opinion and experience I respect, I thought I had whipped that old problem.

I do need to rein it in a little and get some more trigger time on the PT1911. I came real close to buying a Wilson barrel and fitted bushing for the Taurus the other day. In reality this would not have made me a better shot as the small amount of accuracy that I might have got would not overcome my inexperience with the pistol.

I think that for the present time I'll give the Hogue grips a try as everything else I shoot has some kind of ergo grips on them. I have learned the hard way that too many changes give you a poor perspective on results. I know that each pistol is an individual to some extent.

Thanks again to all for your time and consideration in the kind replies to my question.

I remain,

Respectfully,
Dan Hankins
Beginner at age 59

[Combat Controller]

I understand wanting to fiddle around. I have a bunch of 1911's but the ones I shoot best I fiddled around to flat MSH, long trigger, stippled or grip taped front strap and no FLGR with wooden checkered grips. But it puts them where I want them so I am a happy man.