FLGR or no FLGR

[gil220]

ok, i have two springfeilds(loaded,trp)i am thinking of takeing the FLGR out so i am taking a poll on what is best. in or out-

[irq23]

Out. I have never seen any good evidence that it does anything except make the pistol hard to strip in the field.

[glocker1911]

There is usually lots of strong feeling on this subject, eithe for or against. But to my way of thinking, there is no clear cut advantage to EITHER one, so I leae the pistol however it comes. Bottom line, for me, is it's not worth spending any money to add one to a gun, but it's not worth sprnding any money to take one out, either. So my vote is, leave it alone and run it however it came. Good luck.

[irq23]

There is usually lots of strong feeling on this subject, eithe for or against. But to my way of thinking, there is no clear cut advantage to EITHER one, so I leae the pistol however it comes. Bottom line, for me, is it's not worth spending any money to add one to a gun, but it's not worth sprnding any money to take one out, either. So my vote is, leave it alone and run it however it came. Good luck.

I agree their is no clear cut advantage in accuracy or reliability for either. But, a FLGR does make the pistol harder to strip in the field which could be a very bad thind.

[Bud White]

out i cant stand um

[DEE DEE DEE]

I agree their is no clear cut advantage in accuracy or reliability for either. But, a FLGR does make the pistol harder to strip in the field which could be a very bad thind.
how is that a very bad thing?
i like them they look good and why would they put them on if they did not help?

[Bluey]

Look at it this way, some love 'em, some hate 'em and some don't bother for a variety of reasons to no end. In my Springer 9mm, it has a two-piece FLGR set-up and it can be rather awkward just to rely on an allen key to unscrew the FLGR. I've had two occasions where the two-piece unscrewed themselves while in the process of shooting and the guide rod went flying down range! Pretty embarassing the second time around as the guide rod embedded itself in the target.

So, I resorted to using nail polish on the threads as a temp. lock-up and it's working so far, so good. Being a practical bloke, I prefer the simple GI plug set-up as I don't have to worry about having a spare allen key with me, should I have to disassemble the pistol in a flash. I'm having a stainless plug made up by a machinist at work to substitute the FLGR set-up.

Why put the FLGRs in? I've seen 1911s with bull-barrels that needs them as a necessity but in a normal stock 1911, there's no *real* need to have one. They're just there because there are people who wants them in their pistols, regardless of what reason.

[John]

FLGR help in extraction and feeding. They extract money out of your pocket and feed them directly into the pockets of the FLGR makers.

It's been said again and again. These things offer nothing in accuracy and reliability. If you like the way they look, and you do not bother the extra steps required to disassemble the pistol with one, fine go ahead and use one. If you have one and you do not like it, take it out, it won't affect your gun at all.

One single case where a FLGR may help. If the gun is an old beater, with a very loose slide to frame fit, a FLGR may improve things a bit, by guiding the slide. But in a contemporary gun, with proper tolerances, they offer nothing.

[jeff1124]

I took the FLGR out of my Springer Loaded and replaced with Ed Brown standard parts. It made no discernible difference in function and accuracy and, as others have stated, it's a whole lot easier to field strip!!

[deadmarsh]

I don't use the FLGR, just the standard GI set-up...

In J. Kuhnhausen's tech reference he does state that the FLGR aids in consistent pressure during cycling from the recoil spring which might be an aid for cycling performance...who knows?


Dead

[Ash]

no FLGR. ive seen no performance difference at all, and as everyone has stated the plug vs FLGR is much easier to strip with your bare hands. i can do an FLGR but need to use the edge of a magazine to do it (so in theory you can still strip without "tools").

the only theoretical improvement is a more forward Cg but with a steel framed gun, i doubt it's appreciable (unlike, say, a steel vs plastic guide rod in a beretta).

[Woodman]

First off, I own a 1911A1 Loaded that came with the two piece guide rod. It has never come loose on me at the range, even after 500rds downrange. It has caused me no issues, no problems, etc. However... it also does nothing for the gun in my opinion. I have it simply because I have no desire to spend any money on the gun that will not impact it's overall performance in any concievable way.


Now that that's out of the way...
DeeDeeDee, you asked why would they install it if it did nothing? The same reason they change the way snack foods taste every couple of years... they want to bring more people in to buy their product. It's not a conspiracy, it's not a plot to get everyone to own a FLGR, it's just that enough people asked for the FLGR to be standard equipment on the higher end weapons, so they installed it. Also, the reason many people bring up field stripping without tools is for a combat enviroment. While it's doubtful that most of us in the normal course of our day will ever need to fire or dissasemble our 1911's in a "combat" enviroment, in the event of zombie invasion, or other massive breakdown of government/society in general, I can see the usefulness of being able to dissasemble my 1911 quickly and easily in the field to either oil it up/clean it/otherwise maintain it. Again, in the real world for most of us, it won't really be an issue, but it is something to consider should you have a plan for if the world goes to hades in a handbasket.

Deadmarsh, I acknowledge your comment about it applying constant pressure, but I just can't see that as valid in my mind. The way I see it, the only thing applying pressure to the spring is the cap. The guide rod could concieveably keep a very worn and loose spring from bowing upwards and mucking up the barrel's movement, but I don't see the guide rod doing anything as far as applying pressure to the recoil spring. The only thing putting pressure on the spring is the cap and the back half of the rod where it mates to the spring.

The whole FLGR's are good or bad doesn't really matter to me. It's just an extra bell or whistle in my opinion, but not enough of an issue one way or another to worry about spending money on when I can spend the money on ammo or other functional improvements such as better sights or trigger pull.

[John]

I don't use the FLGR, just the standard GI set-up...

In J. Kuhnhausen's tech reference he does state that the FLGR aids in consistent pressure during cycling from the recoil spring which might be an aid for cycling performance...who knows?


Dead
Well, even the makers of those FLGRs do not say that their products offer anything towards reliability or accuracy. Their only reason for selling them (according to their literature) is that they keep the spring from kinking and thus offer greater spring life.

Sorry, the spring, in a 1911 can not kink. Not enough free spring length to allow any kinking.

[deadmarsh]

I'm agree with you, John...just wanted to point out what some of the experts had to say in regards to the FLGR issue. Seems like a stretch to me trying to find something unique or positive to say about this unnecessary addition to Browning's design...


Dead

[Joni Lynn]

The only reason I use the FLGR in several of mine is the kind of FLGR it is, Dawson Precision Tool-less FLGR. It captures the spring so fingers with a little arthritis can disassemble without any spring and parts to go flying. Otherwise they're pretty useless.

[Texshooter]

I took the FLGR out of my Springer Loaded and replaced with Ed Brown standard parts. It made no discernible difference in function and accuracy and, as others have stated, it's a whole lot easier to field strip!!

I did that exact same thing and had the same results.

Tex

[Frank]

I don't see any real advantage with a FLGR. They probably don't do any harm, but why bother?

I do have a FLGR in my NHC Talon IV (Officer size) because it uses a bull barrel, and I have a tungsten one in my IPSC limited gun. Otherwise I'm happy with the old standard set up.

DVC

[proraptor]

My gun came with the FLGR and has never given me any problems so why change it?...I dont even think its a pain when you want to take it apart...Whats the big deal about having to use an allen wrench? I have to use a barrel nut wrench anyways cause my barrel nut (EGW) fits super snug.

[jeff1124]

The only "big" deal is, if you're at the range and your gun messes up after shooting only a few rounds and you don't have your magical allen wrench, then what do you do? In your case, if you need the bushing wrench, you'll probably remember your little tool kit but sometimes I just drop by the gun club with whatever I'm carrying and some ammo and do some shooting. I don't want to have to remember extras.

[proraptor]

The only "big" deal is, if you're at the range and your gun messes up after shooting only a few rounds and you don't have your magical allen wrench, then what do you do? In your case, if you need the bushing wrench, you'll probably remember your little tool kit but sometimes I just drop by the gun club with whatever I'm carrying and some ammo and do some shooting. I don't want to have to remember extras.

Yeah I know exactly where you are coming from....I shoot many guns so I always bring my tool kit so it isnt a big deal to me. My pistol has never failed me at the range either so I dont worry too often...

[John]

I have to use a barrel nut wrench anyways cause my barrel nut (EGW) fits super snug.

Sorry but that's not a nut, that's a ... bushing.

[proraptor]

you know what I meant

[deadmarsh]

Proraptor:

John is just trying to educate you in the terminology of the 1911 and other firearms -- he's trying to help...

When I have customers trying to explain a problem to me over the phone, it's hard to diagnose a problem when parts are not identified correctly...

It's similar to those who insist on calling magazines clips when they clearly are not...

And when we start talking the different springs in the 1911 or any other handgun for that matter, well, if the proper items aren't correctly labeled then the problem usually become exasperated for both the gunsmith and the customer...


Good Luck:


Dead

[proraptor]

Proraptor:

John is just trying to educate you in the terminology of the 1911 and other firearms -- he's trying to help...

When I have customers trying to explain a problem to me over the phone, it's hard to diagnose a problem when parts are not identified correctly...

It's similar to those who insist on calling magazines clips when they clearly are not...

And when we start talking the different springs in the 1911 or any other handgun for that matter, well, if the proper items aren't correctly labeled then the problem usually become exasperated for both the gunsmith and the customer...


Good Luck:


Dead

I was at work when typing that so I had to do it fast....It was a typo...Not to mention Ive been spending way too much time on my Ar-15...

[Maple Leaf Pilgrim]

My TRP Operator came with a two piece FLGR. I don't really worry about it either way. The gun works beautifully and take down requires a paper clip and a few extra seconds. It goes BANG, a hole appears in the target (pretty much where I want it to even!) and it cycles a new round so I can make it go BANG again. I'm good with that.

[irq23]

how is that a very bad thing?
i like them they look good and why would they put them on if they did not help?

It can be a very bad thing because if you need to field strip your 1911 for emergency or cleaning in the field (not at home) it may be exteremely difficult or impossible. Duh...

[dakota1911]

The heavy Tantalum guide rods might (maybe) add enough weight to the front of the gun to aid in recoil control. Perhaps. Could happen.

[robertbank]

My Para came with a one piece FLGR and take down is exactly the same as it is with my 1911's that don't have one in them. This a great debate about nothing in particular. I will say though if the FLGR holds a loose slide straight in a worn gun it sure won't hurt one that is not. Whether that effects function of the pistol is a matter of debate. I haven't noticed any difference one way or another so if they come with them, they stay there if they don't that is fine too.

Take Care

Bob

[irq23]

My Para came with a one piece FLGR and take down is exactly the same as it is with my 1911's that don't have one in them. This a great debate about nothing in particular. I will say though if the FLGR holds a loose slide straight in a worn gun it sure won't hurt one that is not. Whether that effects function of the pistol is a matter of debate. I haven't noticed any difference one way or another so if they come with them, they stay there if they don't that is fine too.

Take Care

Bob
If your gun does not need tools to strip and you have a FLGR, then I would say leave it too its not like it does much. Though the fact is that most guns with FLGR need a paperclip or small allen wrench to hold the spring captive so the plug can be removed before the barrel can come out of the slide. If that is the case, take em out. My $0.2

[purple88yj]

Both of my Springers have the FLGR, and I have not noticed any difference in performance either way. Since I don't leave home without certain things, I am never without the necessary tools that I might need throughout the course of a day.

If I have my pants on, I have a knife. the back of the blade is just the right size to fit into the slot (flat head screw FLGR, not Allen). I also have with me a Leatherman, and a falshlight.

I figure I can resolve or diagnose most mechanical problems with what I have on me. I did notice that the 2 piece in my V-12 would loosen up after a few dozen rounds, but since it is only a range/BBQ gun, I am not terribly worried about it. Nothing a little dab of Loctite can't fix.

[Joni Lynn]

This is the only flgr I'll use. Only on range guns, I'd never use a flgr on a carry gun.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Joni_Lynn/DawsonFLGR.jpg

[SilverState]

ditto on using them for range guns only

[CD MCKINNEY]

I have full length guide rods on all of my 5" carry pieces. I don't feel that they aid in mechanical function to any measurable amount, but as I load Corbon 185 +P JHP in my carry pieces I like a little extra weight forward to keep the muzzle level, and any little bit of that is good. As for "combat readiness", and the ability to strip down the weapon in the field; Who carries replacement parts, along with their carry weapons to affect any kind of "repair" that would allow them to fix it in the middle of gun fight ? I mean really, if your gun fails in the middle of a fight; your only options are to go for your backup or retreat. (And) the parts that might fail, besides the extractor and firing pin, would require more than a slide removal (and tools) to fix, along with the parts. I am always amazed at the "microscopic" and fantasized perceptions of some of some people here, but it is always good for a laugh.

[jeff1124]

yep, there's always reason for a good chuckle around here, LOL! That FLGR thingie, sure is heavy!

[robertbank]

Read some of what folks think 4 million people in a city should have at hand to survive God knows what by living of the land if you want real humour. Never mind the assortment of firearms they will be packing.

Take Care

Bob

[irq23]

I have full length guide rods on all of my 5" carry pieces. I don't feel that they aid in mechanical function to any measurable amount, but as I load Corbon 185 +P JHP in my carry pieces I like a little extra weight forward to keep the muzzle level, and any little bit of that is good. As for "combat readiness", and the ability to strip down the weapon in the field; Who carries replacement parts, along with their carry weapons to affect any kind of "repair" that would allow them to fix it in the middle of gun fight ? I mean really, if your gun fails in the middle of a fight; your only options are to go for your backup or retreat. (And) the parts that might fail, besides the extractor and firing pin, would require more than a slide removal (and tools) to fix, along with the parts. I am always amazed at the "microscopic" and fantasized perceptions of some of some people here, but it is always good for a laugh.

I would have to disagree. A quick slide removal and wiping down of the frame rails after a dunk in the mud might get you back in the action. Also, regular maintenance and cleaning while in the field could be very difficuly without the tools necessary to field strip.

[koabich]

I found this on the D&L Website regarding FLGR. This comes from the mouth of Dave Lauk:
"A full length guide rod is used in the D&L Professional model because it does offer some benefits. (The FLGR setup is also simple to disassemble by those with a little more experience with the 1911.) The benefits of the FLGR system include smoother and more consistant tracking of the slide on the frame for each and every shot. More importantly the FLGR stops the live round in the chamber from being extracted from the chamber and ejected from the pistol if the front underside of the slide is slammed into a solid cover object during live fire when the thumb safety is off. Without the FLGR in place the slide will go back far enough to eject the live round from the chamber, but not nessessarily far enough to pick up the next round from the magazine. You can wind up with an empty chamber when you need it if this happens. A FLGR can prevent this occurance, which of course, could be a critical factor in a live situation. "

Hope this helps.

[robertbank]

So tell me again why a FLGR makes a 1911 any harder to field strip. Doesn't take me any longer mind I have a one piece rod in my Para. The two piece one I have in my Norinco just requires a hex wrench but doesn't take a whole lot more time.

I agree I am never going to be doing any field repairs with my 1911's and as far as dropping my guns in the mud. Naw, prefer not to thank-you. Not much for shooting outside in the rain and any don't anticipate being pressed into any militias any time soon either.


I think CD MCKINNEY summed it best. But hey you never can tell...

Take Care

Bob

[texbaz]

" While it's doubtful that most of us in the normal course of our day will ever need to fire or disassemble our 1911's in a "combat" environment, in the event of zombie invasion, or other massive breakdown of government/society in general, I can see the usefulness of being able to disassemble my 1911 quickly and easily in the field to either oil it up/clean it/otherwise maintain it. Again, in the real world for most of us, it won't really be an issue, but it is something to consider should you have a plan for if the world goes to hades in a hand basket ". quoted from "Woodsman's" reply

Woodsman, Thanks for bringing the subject some reality and a basic logic check. :) Bottom line is it's Personal preference. Ford/Chevy, inny/outy, blue/green, 1911/hi-power. And for every minuscule advantages, their is a disadvantage. with that Hey, George with EGW is sending me a Enhanced FLGR with the ISMI spring and reverse plug can't wait :p . if anybody sees any Zombies head-in toward Tejas let me know.

[irq23]

I found this on the D&L Website regarding FLGR. This comes from the mouth of Dave Lauk:
"A full length guide rod is used in the D&L Professional model because it does offer some benefits. (The FLGR setup is also simple to disassemble by those with a little more experience with the 1911.) The benefits of the FLGR system include smoother and more consistant tracking of the slide on the frame for each and every shot. More importantly the FLGR stops the live round in the chamber from being extracted from the chamber and ejected from the pistol if the front underside of the slide is slammed into a solid cover object during live fire when the thumb safety is off. Without the FLGR in place the slide will go back far enough to eject the live round from the chamber, but not nessessarily far enough to pick up the next round from the magazine. You can wind up with an empty chamber when you need it if this happens. A FLGR can prevent this occurance, which of course, could be a critical factor in a live situation. "

Hope this helps.

Wonder how much truth there is to that, I have never heard that. Tuner, where are you !?!?!

[irq23]

So tell me again why a FLGR makes a 1911 any harder to field strip. Doesn't take me any longer mind I have a one piece rod in my Para. The two piece one I have in my Norinco just requires a hex wrench but doesn't take a whole lot more time.

I agree I am never going to be doing any field repairs with my 1911's and as far as dropping my guns in the mud. Naw, prefer not to thank-you. Not much for shooting outside in the rain and any don't anticipate being pressed into any militias any time soon either.


I think CD MCKINNEY summed it best. But hey you never can tell...

Take Care

Bob

It is the fact that you have to have a hex wrench or a paper clip, not that it is all that much more difficult. If you dont need tools then it doesnt matter which one you have.

[texbaz]

It is the fact that you have to have a hex wrench or a paper clip, not that it is all that much more difficult. If you dont need tools then it doesnt matter which one you have.

I don't need, a take down tool to assemble or disasemble my loaded Champ with the factory Dual/recoil spring. I wonder where the difficulty is? Hmm :D

[irq23]

I don't need any take down tools to assemble or disasemble my loaded Champ with the factory Dual/recoil spring. I wonder where the difficulty is? Hmm :D

As I said in earlier posts, I dont see a problem with FLGR that dont require tools. Though the majority of the ones I have come across do require a tool to takedown.

[SilverState]

Some of my range 1911s with flgr's require a tool for disassembly and some do not (most require a tool).

[jeff1124]

As has been said many many times previously, "If John Moses Browning didn't see a need for it, it ain't necessary!"

[koabich]

As has been said many many times previously, "If John Moses Browning didn't see a need for it, it ain't necessary!"

I have always found that comment funny and amusing. If that comment applies to John Moses Browning, then it should also apply to Henery Ford or the Write Brothers, but then again, I do not and cannot see people driving around in Model A's or flying in Flyer 1 bi-wing planes.

The argument can be made the Browning made a pretty good gun, and I would very much agree. But no matter how good something is, it can always be made better.

[jeff1124]

Well, JMB was smart enough to design a gun that has lasted a century and still people are buying his design. I'm not sure you or anyone else has proven that an FLGR improves anything. The "Write" brothers didn't invent a plane that could be disassembled using it's own parts, JMB DID design a gun that did! Are all the fancy things hanging off the new Kimbers (external extractor, as an example) helping the design? I know that new technology allows for better tolerances and more accuracy but doesn't necessarily improve on the original design.

[JHG]

I finally got around to replacing the flgr in my 2000 model Springfield loaded yesterday. I am going to much happier with a standard setup. It is now like my others.

[koabich]

Well, JMB was smart enough to design a gun that has lasted a century and still people are buying his design. I'm not sure you or anyone else has proven that an FLGR improves anything. The "Write" brothers didn't invent a plane that could be disassembled using it's own parts, JMB DID design a gun that did! Are all the fancy things hanging off the new Kimbers (external extractor, as an example) helping the design? I know that new technology allows for better tolerances and more accuracy but doesn't necessarily improve on the original design.

I can definately understand that point. The origional design was so good that very little to date has been done to make it better!

[GaryC1911]

GI Spec all the way. Have seen the Springer two piece allen wrench bushings launched down range with the round. That was a real hoot.

[John]

I assume you mean allen wrench guide rod, the bushings do not usually have a screw.

[Tom]

One of the things I liked about my Springfield Loaded Operator was it, in contrast to the rest of their Loaded line-up, came with the traditional plug-n-spring design and not the FLGR. I probably would have changed it if it did come with the FLGR, but it was nice that this higher-end pistol bucked the trend of so many of its peers.

[solz56]

I noticed browsing the louderthanwords (http://www.louderthanwords.us) forums that the custom smiths have moved away from FLGR. I read one smith (I think it was Ned Christiansen) say that he started using FLGR because, for a time, people wouldn't think a pistol was "high-end" without one. But he now doesn't use them. Seems like something that everyone started doing because it was expected in a premium piece (like wood trim in a luxury car) but didn't really do anything.

[ArmscorBA]

I use them cuz, They look cool!!! :p ;)
Ivan

[DougC]

If you use your 1911 for business, don't use the the guide. If it is for play, then fine. If JB thought it was necessay, then he would have added it to the design.

[robertbank]

OTOH he just might not have thought of it.

Take Care

Bob

[lazlong]

My Loaded has one, but my RIA doesn't. The Loaded is losing the guide rod when I return home.

[GR8GIFT]

I prefer to not have the flgr in my 45's. My Wilson has one that has never given any problems since 1996 when it was built, however it does require the proper allen wrench for takedown. I've thought of checking to see if Wilson can fit a standard recoil spring guide and plug. Just haven't gotten around to calling them about it.

[JHG]

I prefer to not have the flgr in my 45's. My Wilson has one that has never given any problems since 1996 when it was built, however it does require the proper allen wrench for takedown. I've thought of checking to see if Wilson can fit a standard recoil spring guide and plug. Just haven't gotten around to calling them about it.
You should be able to buy what you need at Midway or Brownells and for under $20.00 and drop in yourself in about 1 minute.

[GaryC1911]

Right John,

Trigger finger got caught in the keyboard...been doin that allot lately.

[John]

:lm:

[deadmarsh]

OTOH he just might not have thought of it.


I personally doubt that...


Dead

[Tom]

I would agree. If he thought a longer, if not full-length, rod was needed back before 1911, I think he would have made it that way. Subsequently, when the M1911 was reviewed and specific changed were made to improve it - like the arched MSH and relief cuts for the trigger - no change was made to the guide rod. Surely if there was a problem with the old style, or a way to improve the gun with a FLGR, wouldn't it have been addressed? ;)

[littlelefty]

I voted No. My Springer Loaded came with a FLGR and I removed it after leaving the allen wrench home once so that I could not use the conversion kit :mad:

[ArmscorBA]

Stop it!!! ;) ;)
Ivan

[FreeMe]

Seems to me, that if in the heat of action the FLGR gets bent (like maybe getting wacked during an interrupted reload, or maybe when the muzzle gets jammed into something at an angle like maybe, um, the ground...), that it might tie up the gun.

Has that happened to anybody?

[Joni Lynn]

In a situation such as that I think it would be more likely to bend the lip of the plug thus hindering it's movement down the flgr.

[berkbw]

some of us HAVE to have a FLGR. (just TRY stuffing a 24# spring in from the rear!)

b-

[John]

What on earth are you shooting in that pistol Berk???

[Frank]

Seems to me, that if in the heat of action the FLGR gets bent ...
The FLGRs I've seen, at least the one piece variety, are pretty stout hunks of metal. They're not going to be easy to bend.

Of course, I'm still not a fan.

DVC

[robertbank]

There maybe a lot of reasons why one might not want to use a FLGR but worrying about bending one is not on any list of mine. Now putting the thing in a vise and heating it just prior to hitting with a hammer....

Take Care

Bob

[FreeMe]

There maybe a lot of reasons why one might not want to use a FLGR but worrying about bending one is not on any list of mine. Now putting the thing in a vise and heating it just prior to hitting with a hammer....


Well - that's good to know. Put's me into the "no need, no harm" column, I guess...

Although, I do like the simplicity and ease of the standard GI design.

[Rich in VA]

If anyone would like to rid themselves of these evil, wicked FLGR's, I will be glad to take them off your hands and dispose of them properly. I will be more than glad to pay for the shipping.

e-mail is rtjonesva1@tds.net or, a PM will suffice.

Thanks.

Rich

[berkbw]

What on earth are you shooting in that pistol Berk???

.460 Rowland. And you DO need a vise as a 3rd hand!

b-

[Cap]

Interesting debate.
Seems some pretty strong opinions

Don't have an opinon one way or another cause I'm new to 1911s and only own one.
A Para 745 that has a FLGR and as Robert already mentioned, All that's needed to field strip is a bushing wrench.
Maybe after several 1000 rounds and feild stripping a couple dozen times, i won't need the bushing wrench either

I was kind of curious of the fellows who mentioned "JMB didn't make it that way" so that's why not to have them.
Just wonder if the folks who see it that way also despense with the beavertail grip safeties, triggers, hammers, sights, arched or non main spring etc?

Thanks

..L.T.A.

[John]

Beavertail grip safeties, round hammers, different sights are all things which are offering a particular improvement. For example, I can't shoot a 1911 without a beavertail (and a round/oval hammer) because I get hammer bite. Also, the traditional sights are useless for my aging eyes.

So these things do offer something over the standard configuration, something that helps some shooters use their gun more effectively. The FLGR does not.

[dogdollar]

It can be a very bad thing because if you need to field strip your 1911 for emergency or cleaning in the field (not at home) it may be exteremely difficult or impossible. Duh...

Actually, with a FLGR it is MUCHO easier to take the slide, rod, spring, etc. off as a unit and then reinstall in mere seconds.
I love all this passion the FLGR haters have, but, personally, I find them much more useful than some popular acoutrements, like, say, front slide cocking serrations.....why don't we pick on them for a while ?
Tim

[dogdollar]

Both of my Springers have the FLGR, and I have not noticed any difference in performance either way. Since I don't leave home without certain things, I am never without the necessary tools that I might need throughout the course of a day.

If I have my pants on, I have a knife. the back of the blade is just the right size to fit into the slot (flat head screw FLGR, not Allen). I also have with me a Leatherman, and a falshlight.

I figure I can resolve or diagnose most mechanical problems with what I have on me. I did notice that the 2 piece in my V-12 would loosen up after a few dozen rounds, but since it is only a range/BBQ gun, I am not terribly worried about it. Nothing a little dab of Loctite can't fix.

Note to self: Whenever going to range, always have pants on.

[John]

Actually, with a FLGR it is MUCHO easier to take the slide, rod, spring, etc. off as a unit and then reinstall in mere seconds.
I love all this passion the FLGR haters have, but, personally, I find them much more useful than some popular acoutrements, like, say, front slide cocking serrations.....why don't we pick on them for a while ?
Tim
Good idea, great idea, let's start complaining about them. Useless things! Ugly too sometimes!

[dogdollar]

Yes, YUCK.
If JMB had wanted slide front cocking serrations, he would have put them there.
Although I DO hear they help keep the recoil spring from kinking.
T. ;)

[jeff1124]

Yes, YUCK.
If JMB had wanted slide front cocking serrations, he would have put them there.
Although I DO hear they help keep the recoil spring from kinking.
T. ;)
You're really reaching there, Tim.;) The real reason for front serrations is to slow down re-holstering in case there's still a bad guy around! I thought everyone knew that!!:)

[snafu]

I've got a Wilson 1pc,,do I need it? Probably not.But I also don't need any tool in the field.At home doing PM,,I always use a barrel bushing wrench,even with my non FLGR pistol.

[Ping Ping]

Hmmm... I am ambivalent, for two reasons. The best pistolsmith in my area, and one of the best in the world, Jim Garthwait, swears by them and has them in all his carry guns. He says they cycle smoother. On the other hand, JMB didn't outfit one...

If I had a gun that came with it (I dont) I wouldnt remove it on principle. I would also never put one in a gun that didnt come with it. If I had a gun that ever needed a new guide rod, Id get rid of that gun.

[John]

You live near Jim? Well, next time you see him, give him my regards, he and I had some nice talking during the SHOT Show. His 9x19/9x23 pistol was a beauty.

[Ping Ping]

You live near Jim? Well, next time you see him, give him my regards, he and I had some nice talking during the SHOT Show. His 9x19/9x23 pistol was a beauty.

Will do, John. He is a great guy and very approachable. His work is as fine as fine gets!

[wichitagreg]

I'M NO GUNSMITH nor do I play one on TV. I'm also no 1911 Expert.

I have FLGR's in three of my four 1911's. They came stock from the factory. They are one piece FLGR's and require no special tools to dissasemble.

Because they are there, they must have some effect. Good or bad. If the only thing they do is improve spring life, then why remove them.

I believe the following:

Improved spring life,
Improved or smoother action cycling as the FLGR helps keep the slide aligned while cycling (no evidance of this),
Improved recoil absorption/slide deceleration by the friction of the spring and plug on the FLGR,
Improved reliability as the spring is under control as opposed to being free to 'warp' and change shape in the tunnel.
No reason to remove it, so this is as unsignificant a 'problem' as there can be.

Unscientific, I agree, but I'm not going to spend money to change it.

[John]

Improved spring life,
Improved or smoother action cycling as the FLGR helps keep the slide aligned while cycling (no evidance of this),
Improved recoil absorption/slide deceleration by the friction of the spring and plug on the FLGR,
Improved reliability as the spring is under control as opposed to being free to 'warp' and change shape in the tunnel.

It is unfortunate that none of the above is true.

Starting with the spring warping (or kinking), if you study the 1911 pistol, with a standard guide rod and plug, you will see that there is very little free length of spring, which is neither over the guide rod or inside the plug, maybe 1/2". As a result the spring can NOT kink.

Also, there is no friction between the plug and the guide rod. There shouldn't be any or else your pistol won't function properly. Even the FLGR manufacturers do not suggest recoil absorption or slide deceleration as a feature of this product.

Improved or smoother action cycling as the FLGR helps keep the slide aligned while cycling (no evidance of this),

This can be partially true. On a loose 1911, i.e. on one where the slide and frame are very loosely fit together, there is indeed some improvement in the operation of the pistol, when a FLGR is used. On a decent pistol with the proper tolerances on the slide to frame fit, there is absolutely no effect.

I agree with you, if that's how it came from the factory and if you like them, there is no point in changing the FLGRs. They offer nothing, they take away nothing.

[Tom]

This can be partially true. On a loose 1911, i.e. on one where the slide and frame are very loosely fit together, there is indeed some improvement in the operation of the pistol ...
I've never known the origin of the reason for the design and implementation of the FLGR to begin with. Was it a trick used by gun makers to offset the poor quality of their slide-to-frame fit, I wonder. I mean, somebody had to have a reason to create the darned things in the first place.

[scott53]

I vote no. Many years ago I asked my old friend CWO John Miller about FLGRs. For those who don’t know him, John spent his entire adult life as an armorer in the Ohio National Guard. John is the guy that initially trained Larry Vickers and Steve Nastoff in the finer arts of building 1911s. When John talks about 1911s, I listen. He told me that years ago when he was at the MTU they ran thorough tests on FLGR versus non-FLGR equipped 1911s and determined that they have no effect on accuracy. He said that the only impact it had was on head space, the shooter’s head space, not the head space of the pistol.

[Rio Vista Slim]

I agree with you, if that's how it came from the factory and if you like them, there is no point in changing the FLGRs. They offer nothing, they take away nothing.
In the case of three pistols tested for the M1911.ORG E-zine, the full length guide rod extended to the end of the barrel. This "non-feature" (in my opinion) forces one to first remove the slide stop, then remove the slide while securing the recoil spring. Then the spring and FLGR have to be manipulated to remove the barrel bushing and recoil spring plug. Until a person has successfully done this a couple of times, it is a less than pleasurable experience. Reassembly is no less an ordeal. While I can now do it blindfolded, the question remains. WHY?

If I had considered purchasing any of those pistols, my FIRST modification would have been to a standard guide rod and recoil spring plug!

[John]

He said that the only impact it had was on head space, the shooter’s head space, not the head space of the pistol.

And as 1911Tuner says, they also help in extraction and in feeding. They extract money from your pocket and feed them in the pocket of their manufacturer. :D :)

:lm:

[dakota1911]

Weight and parts interchange are two reasons I don't like them (unless you want to add weight to that part of the pistol). Below is a comparison of weights of a few different Colt guide/caps and flgrs.

Again, there are approximately 28.35 grams in an ounce.

Guide rod solutions for the recoil spring. Weights taken without spring.
>Rod and cap from 74 Gov (blued) 19.1 grams
>SS Combat Commander from 1991 rod & cap 15.0 grams
>FLGR from XSE Commander with cap 27.3 grams
>FLGR from XSE Gov. with cap 35.6 grams
----and----
>WWI Repro guide and rod 19.4 grams
>Hardchromed Special Combat Gov. guide and rod 19.5 grams

The other issue with flgrs is the compatibility issue. I know I can take a cap from, say my old 1984 AMT Hardballer and use it on my Gold Cup if I have to. Can I take the cap from my new Taurus 1911PT with flgr and use it on the flgr of my Colt XSE? How about taking the cap from my S&W 1911 with flgr and using it on my Colt XSE Commander with flgr? If I get the time I may expand my study of flgrs and tell you for sure.

[EchoBravoKilo]

I don't know much about this stuff. I do know that of my three Colt's ('66 Gold Cup National Match, '76 Combat Commander and '06 Combat Commander XSE) the newest one is the only one with FLGR. I changed it out because I didn't like the fact that I needed wrench to take down the pistol.

Now, it may be me and the fact that I'm improving, but I swear the XSE is more accurate with the standard length guide rod. Totally unscientific, and probably mostly in my head - but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Ping Ping]

I don't know much about this stuff. I do know that of my three Colt's ('66 Gold Cup National Match, '76 Combat Commander and '06 Combat Commander XSE) the newest one is the only one with FLGR. I changed it out because I didn't like the fact that I needed wrench to take down the pistol.

Now, it may be me and the fact that I'm improving, but I swear the XSE is more accurate with the standard length guide rod. Totally unscientific, and probably mostly in my head - but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Well stated and a good point. BUT! The reason you like the standard guide rod configuration is because you just like it. There is NO WAY for any guide rod configuration to affect accuracy in any way. The "ship has sailed" long before anything to do with recoil occurs.

The only thing that any recoil system can affect is, well... RECOIL. It might make it feel differently. It might make it smoother. It might add frontal weight and slightly reduce "felt recoil".

The best formula is: get a well made pistol. Get a well made pistol with the recoil system it was designed with. Insure that you are running the right spring for the ammo you prefer. Shoot it A LOT! You will have no problems. Fun is guaranteed!

[dogdollar]

FLGR's keep your recoil spring from kinking.
(DogDollar <-- ducking, running out the door).

Seriously, they make the action.......smoother. There's just no denying that. You decide what that's worth.

T.

[EchoBravoKilo]

I'm sure changing out the FLGR has nothing to do with my accuracy, or lack thereof for that matter. It does, however make taking the gun apart easier.

As for accuracy, I'm sure sending lots of rounds down range is the best recipe for improvement...

[rob_s]

The current trend definately seems to be away from the FLGR and back to the GI length. I'm glad to see it, but wish that companies like Kimber and Springfield would catch up.

[dakota1911]

After my post the other day, I kept thinking about parts interchange, so I measured the flgrs in a few on my pistols that have them.

Colt: On my XSE Commander and both my XSE Govs. the solid flgr diameter is 318 thousands of an inch
Kimber: On my Kimbers, the solid flgr diameter is 327 thousands of an inch
S&W: On my 1911 Smiths, the solid flgr diameter is 327 thousands of an inch
On a single Safari Arms I have the solid flgr diameter is 327 thousands of an inch (It has the hole for the paper-clip, whatever)
On my single Taurus PT1911 the solid flgr diameter is 313 thousands of an inch.
Aftermarket 1 piece or solid (unknown mfg.) is 325 thousands of an inch.
Aftermarket 2 piece (unknown mfg) is 286 thousands of an inch.

What this means is that using the plug on the flgr from my Colt XSE Commander (I carry the gun and replaced it with a plug and guide, so I put it in the box the gun came in.), the Colt plug would not fit on the rod of the Kimber, S&W, or Safari Arms, but would fit on the Taurus and the two piece aftermarket rod. I guess the moral of the story is if you buy a spare plug for your flgr then check it to be sure it fits on your flgr. Larger will fit on smaller, but I don't know if shooting such a combination a lot would be bad, although I would guess probably not.

[John]

Standards, you said?

[ArmscorBA]

:dead_hors :dead_hors
Ivan
;)

[Longslide]

John

I just love your FLGR purpose statement :D :D

I kinda like umm - I like the IDEA of the recoil spring traveling along a straigt line.

Notice I said the IDEA - I know there is no PRACTICAL reason, but so many pistols come with them as standard OEM equipment???? :confused:

[Rio Vista Slim]

John

I just love your FLGR purpose statement :D :D

I kinda like umm - I like the IDEA of the recoil spring traveling along a straigt line.

Notice I said the IDEA - I know there is no PRACTICAL reason, but so many pistols come with them as standard OEM equipment???? :confused:
Many of the more recent pistols have a cam surface on the bottom of the barrel, to lock and unlock the pistol during the firing sequence. These same pistols have no dedicated spring tunnel. A full length guide rod is necessary in these designs, to create a captive recoil spring system, which is essential to reliable operation in those types of weapons. The 1911, as designed by John Moses Browning, was not dependant on a captive recoil spring system.

[auto45]

" This can be partially true. On a loose 1911, i.e. on one where the slide and frame are very loosely fit together, there is indeed some improvement in the operation of the pistol, when a FLGR is used."

As John said, this did help my 1911 cycle smoother, less rattles and the "proof" was in the ejection pattern. Much more consistent with the FLGR.
It does seem the FLGR provides additional "contact points" for the slide to move more consistently on the frame.

Of course, if I had to eliminate a "feature" on my 1911, the FLGR would go first since they, obviously, can work without them.

[robertbank]

If the FLGR helps on a loose fitting slide then logic tells me it must aid in keeping a tight fitting slide in line. JMB did go with a FLGR in the Hi-Power and both the SIG and CZ use them as well.
As far as disassembly is concerned my Para's come apart the same way as my 1911's with the GI guide rod. Maybe those pistols that have to long a FLGR ought to go back to the factories to have them shortened. No reason I know of for a FLGR to cause a problem in disassembling the slide.

Suspect it all is about marketing. First when you put them in and 2nd when you convince folks to remove them and buy a GI rod.

Take Care

Bob

[JM likes loud mouth]

Have Springfield Loaded model with FLGR. Gun shoots and functions well. My Colt Mark IV series 80 does not. I bought Wilson Group Gripper Kit for Colt. Accuracy did Improve, slide didnt fully close into battery all the time. I took out Kit, gun works fine. Later on, I came across bag that kit came In. Saw a not saying depending on gun, you have to file or trim bottom of new link from kit part sometimes. I didnt do this as of yet, but thinking back I remember when working slide something felt like it was rubbing, or slide was hitting something in its way. Back when, I thought by putting in 20lb recoil spring ti will close slide for me. It did help a little. After asking Johns advice on this problem. He alerted me that I would ruin gun if I didnt take this heavy spring and kit out. In all fairness to Wilson, I did miss that Important step. I am glad I didnt keep gun like this very long, knowing in my gut, something wasnt right. Maybe, if installation was done right on my part this wont happen? The other thing I did not care for, was the two piece rod had to be tighten every so many rounds. And when tighten fully, slide would not move at all. Again, was it because I did not remove the area on the link as I should? So all this left me with the Impresion that If gun did not come with it from factory, will aftermarket do? You would think the factory will do a better job from the start. Even with all that, Springy will outshoot it, any day of the week. Kit was only marginal in my opinion. Colt is back to being my always dependable side arm as it once was. I think I will leave it stock, end of story. Hope this helps someone from alot of undo agravation. Happy Easter everyone.

[John]

If the FLGR helps on a loose fitting slide then logic tells me it must aid in keeping a tight fitting slide in line.

Sorry Bob, I am not sure this is registering OK in my mind. Could you elaborate?

[dogdollar]

FLGR's rule, in my opinion. If you have a few slabs laying around, put a FLGR in one of them and tell me there's no difference. Have it cut to the length of the slide and there is no difference in breaking the gun down. <Yawn>.
T.

[robertbank]

In post #8 you said:

"One single case where a FLGR may help. If the gun is an old beater, with a very loose slide to frame fit, a FLGR may improve things a bit, by guiding the slide."

If you think this is true then by extension it aids in keeping the slide follow a straight line. Whether it does or not is up to conjecture and debate I suppose. I have one Norinco that appears to be "tighter" when I have a FLGR in it.


Personally I think it really comes down to the purists who think JMB designed a gun without fault despite several changes to it's original design; some of which are thought to be an improvement and those who really don't care one way or another and have pistols with FLGR which do not require tools to remove the slide and are quite happy. I don't understand why a manufacturer would produce a full size pistolwith a FLGR that is to long and prevents the gun from being taken apart in the normal fashion but that is just me.

One thing is for certain there are two distinct camps and neither is going to be swayed from their opinion which is OK too.

Take Care

Bob

[Waldo Pepper]

I don't use the FLGR, just the standard GI set-up...

In J. Kuhnhausen's tech reference he does state that the FLGR aids in consistent pressure during cycling from the recoil spring which might be an aid for cycling performance...who knows?


DeadI think it was brought about to aid in spring life and proper function.

I must say having owned both that it is much easier to disassemble the FLGR models, just rack slide back to the detent and pull the side keeper pin out and slide the the slide off the frame. I always hated taking the 1911 apart the old military way, with FLGR it is made easier in my opinion. But that that is just my opinion and we all know the old saying about opinions and body anatomy.

[Rich-D]

The Jury is hopelessly deadlocked on the issue. Neither side has convinced the other of their position and there is no hope of doing so. There is no right or wrong in this matter. You must have faith in your gun, whatever assists you in maintaining that faith is best for you.