Safety Problem with Firestorm Govt Model FSGM

[Enfield476]

I've been a gunsmith for 30+ years, and suddenly I am inflicted with 2 late-model LLamas with the same problem. Cocked and locked, pull the trigger and the hammer and safety drops. Whats up? Can anyone help an old 1911-driver?

[John]

Obviously the sear is not blocked completely by the thumb safety. So when you press the trigger, the sear moves away from the hammer hooks, the hammer falls and as it falls it pushed the safety to the off position. Get a new thumb safety and fit it properly to the pistol.

[Enfield476]

Well, I was hoping for a little more than the obvious, although I appreciate the advice. I have already fixed the problem on both guns. I was wondering WHY I suddenly had 2 in a row. Has somebody at LLama/Firestorm dropped the ball? Has anyone ELSE had this same problem? Should we start red-flagging this model?

[John]

Sorry, but not everyone who asks a question here has the experience to solve this problem, and the fact you did mention you are a smith doesn't necessarily mean you are experienced in the 1911.

In any case, aren't the Llamas out of production? If so, maybe a colleague has "treated" those pistols before you? I do not know if they were new or what.

[Longslide]

John you nailed it. Thumb safety on - pull the trigger - hammer fall, bad fit on the saftey to the sear. Solution - new thumb safety. Properly fitted of course!

[Enfield476]

I already repaired both guns by using Colt's safety-locks. I called another smith and asked if he had seen the same problem with Firestorms (which these both were), and he told me that he had, and had repaired them the same way that I did. I was just wondering if this is a problem common to Firestorms and Llamas as ex-Llama machinery was used to build the Firestorm. I guess I screwed-up trying to post this earlier (anything more technologically advanced that that nifty little light that comes on when you open the refrigerator door throws me). Thanks again.

Al

[John]

What's the situation with those pistols? Can they still be found new in the market? If so, maybe we could make this is sticky, so new owners can be aware of the problem and test their pistols? What's the exact model in which you noticed this issue?

[Enfield476]

I guess I was a little unclear in my very first posting, clearly my fault. Most thought that I was looking for a cure when I already had one. At any rate, the pistol in question is the Firestorm Govt Model FSGM, which is a Llama-style upgrade of the Model XI. It is a single action M1911A1 knock-off in .45 cal. What I was trying to figure out amongst fellow members here was how many OTHER gunsmiths like myself have encountered this exact problem with the Firestorm. One customer said that his gun worked fine for awhile, then noticed the problem as he was demonstrating the carry-cocked-and-locked-safety-advantages of the Browning design. Woops! Down dropped the safety and the hammer with it! The other client told me that his did it right out of the box, but didn't want to bother with the warranty so had me drop a Colt's safety-lock into his gun straightaway, as I did with the first customer. They required no fitting whatsoever. My buddy has had three of these SAME Firestorm Govt Models show up, all with the SAME problem. He fixed them the same way that I did. Only one required fitting, the other two dropped right in. These were all standard Colt's Govt Model Safety Locks (now called thumb safeties, but that's how old I am), not extended, which are VERY difficult to fit in order to get around the Firestorm's rather plump PLASTIC, screw-in plunger-tube (which commonly shoots loose after a hundred rounds or so...at least the old Llamas had steel ones that you could actually tighten a bit). Anyhow, THIS was the substance I screwed-up in getting across with my first postings...again, MY fault.

Have a merry and safe Christmas, Folks! And, just maybe, I'll be a little better at posting my stuff in the future!

Al

[John]

No problem. I edited this thread title and made it a sticky, so that others can spot it easily.

And thanks for your wishes, appreciated. Mine and those of the rest of the crew, are already posted in the front page of our sites.

[philip metzner]

hi folks, i just tested my Llama IXA for this. this is the pistol just returned to me, that was stolen back in 2002. it never did this before,but is does now! with the saftey on, it will drop the hammer and saftey when the trigger is pulled. it will also do the same without the grip saftey pushed in. im not a smith but i dont see any wear or mods to the saftey or the grip saftey. it must be in deeper, maybe the sear.--phil

[John]

If the hammer falls with the thumb safety engaged, then obviously the thumb safety does not block the sear enough to forbid every movement. Take off the grip safety and reassemble the gun. Now you can work that thumb safety and see how much gap there is between it and the sear, when it is in the upper position. If it is very very little, you can peen the safety so that it blocks the sear completely, if it is significant (the gap) then you need a new safety.

As for the grip safety, you can do the same thing. Disassemble the gun and reassemble it but without the sear/disconnector. Just the trigger. Then insert the grip safety and secure it on the frame by inserting the thumb safety from the RIGHT side of the frame, not from the left. With a powerful light, you can now peek through the thumb safety's opening and see how far away the grip safety's tongue is from the rear of the trigger. If it is a very little, you can peen the tongue. If it is too much, you need a new grip safety.

It looks as if whoever took away your gun didn't want the safeties working properly.

[Enfield476]

Since my last posting, I've encountered eight more pistols of the Llama/Firestorm Family with this exact same problem. I've also noted that most of the sears were chipped at the engagement-point, permitting only 40-50% contact with the hammer. It seems that, even when brand-new, the fit of the safety-lock (a.k.a. "thumb safety"), sear and grip safety is just this side of a train wreck, so with a little wear (or maybe even just a harsh glance), the fit goes sloppy. Peening is at best only a temporary fix, as the part(s) were obviously too soft to begin with. What I've discovered is that using actual Colt's parts (or a REALLY good clone's), seems to be the best permanent fix. While most of the parts I have replaced were "drop-ins", a few required a bit of fitting, so they should only be installed by a gunsmith, or by someone seriously familliar with the M1911/1911A1-system.

In short, Folks, if you've got one of these pistols, don't wait for it to fail. Replace the safety-lock (a.k.a. "thumb safety"), and sear straightaway, then have the gunsmith check the grip safety for tolerances. If it's dicey, change that as well. If you don't own one of these guns, but are thinking about buying one, keep all that has been said close to mind. As my Old Sea-dog of a Dad used to say; "If you bought it cheap...then it's cheap, ain't it..."

Al

[philip metzner]

thank you for the info! there is too much clearence in both parts to function. it seems odd to me how it got that way, maybe ill know more when i get brave enough to take the sear out. i cant see any signs of filing or grinding on these parts. i only know it wasnt like this back in 02 when it was stolen. i used to check the safteys regularly.-phil

[Longslide]

the issues you have are not uncommon for that manufacture.

Not to worry about taking it apart. It is really easy.

Check the Q& A section for the site - there should be some help for how to disassemble the pistol.

Follow John's instructions. With the grip safety off and put the pistol back together (without the grip safety) you can see where the sear engages the thumb saftey. It should NO GAPS. As John said if SMALL gap you can put the thumb safety in a vice and peen it -

Or just spend the few bucks and get a replacement thumb safety.

UMMMM
If it were me - I would get the Chip McCormick Sear - disconnector - thumb saftey - hammer kit and replace all the ingnition parts. The sear could be out of spec as well. I would not TRUST any of the ingnition parts at this point.

[Enfield476]

Your are welcome, Phil. The problem may have developed simply because the shrub who stole your pistol shot it a lot. I've also had some rough expiriences with the police. Many years ago, several guns were stolen in a smash-and-grab from my store. A local dectective for whom I had done work (deactivating guns to be used in drug-stings, etc.), came in and told me that another department had recovered them, telling me to get down there and claim them before they were cut-up. I found that the guns had been in their property-room for several months, and, that they had been regularly shooting them at their indoor range (including a once-mint Colt's WWII Commemorative!). So any number of factors might account for your pistol getting sloppy over the last few years. As for disassembly, you can find a mil-spec manual for the 1911 (it's pretty close to the Llama), as well as going to Numrich's website in order to have a look at the Llama's exploded view to see the differences between your pistol and the Colt. Good luck and good shooting to you!

Al

[philip metzner]

hi folks, i finaly got the time to strip the llama completly and here's the problem. the sear is chipping away at the edge were it contacts the hammer, as it does this it rotates further to stay in contact with the hammer and the bottom of the sear keeps getting further forward. its now forward enough so the saftey can no longer block its movement. there must be some free play in the trigger cause it took it forward with it untill the grip saftey also couldnt work. im hopeing my new extractor will be here this week, and i intend to get it fitted and tested out saturday. if the pistol works well enough for some range fun, ill order some sear parts. i have zero money so i cant buy parts i dont have to have! anybody got a sear they want to donate?-phil

[Longslide]

Well Phil
If the sear is worn - guess what I would bet money that the hammer sear face is warn as well.

The pistol is unsafe.

You may need to replace all the parts. check out Brownells for a kit.

[Enfield476]

Longslide is absolutely correct. Your sear and hammer are toast. Replace them with new parts. Do NOT attempt to fire this weapon before EVERYTHING has been checked-out by a professional gunsmith. This may seem a bit extreme, but we don't know what other gremlins your pistol may have inherited while out of your posession. I am NOT being an 'expert', I am just trying to make sure that you don't injure yourself or others. Pistols can be replaced...you can't.

[philip metzner]

does anybody know of a good smith close to valdosta georgia?

[philip metzner]

ok guy's my llama is now sporting a new colt hammer, sear, and disconnect. the safteys went right back to working. the smith said the sear was the whole saftey problem, and he said the sear was made out of inferior material and caused the problem. still waiting on a extractor.-phil

[Robv1978]

I check my Firestorm Gov't model for this problem and fortunatley it's ok. Is there a specific model number or run number that has this safety issue or am I just lucky enough to have a "good" one.