ODD Colt 1911

[marc_310]

Hi guys and gals,
I am new to this site..But I belong to about 10 different forums on firearms...Reciently I had the opportunity to trade for a Colt 1911 that is like One I have never seen before....First let me start out by saying I do know about the 1911's and I have looked up the markings and I am waiting on Colt Historic society to send me the paperwork to check out the history...
I have an Argentina Colt 1911A1 (made by Colt) in the origional Colt box with lanyard and wrapped spare magazine in wax paper...ALL #'s match the gun on the slide,frame,barrel and box...Here is the wierd part....None of the markings match the Colt Factory manufactured contract Argentine 1911's with Comercial ser.#'s and Factory government sub contract 1911's...There are no crests or import markings on the gun.I have read everything I could find on the Argentine 1911's nothing on this gun matches any thing I have researched..if you hold the gun in a shooting grip. There are no rollmarks or writing on the Left side frame or slide..On the right side on the slide just below the ejection port is the wording " in spanish"(GENGARMERIA NACIONAL) translation to "english" national army,,,
On the right side frame in front of the trigger guard is the wording as written read Armamentos/ Argentina over each other
Then WPB FL/ 45ACP...Like my example below...

ARMAMENTOS WPB FL
ARGENTINA 45 ACP

From what I make of it the Armamentos Argentina "translated"
Argentina armaments //// WPB FL.>>>> West Palm Beach Florida

In fact the exact marking are similar to BALLESTER's Ballester molina pics in his thread (one more person tells me about a battleship).I dont know if this is where it was going to be exported from..Or shipped to WPB FL for the Argentina government/military
From all the Argentina contract Colt 1911's and Systimas I have seen...I have never seen one with these markings...ANY ONE ELSE HAVE ONE??? Or SEEN ONE??? any help would be appreciated...YOU CAN SEE THE PICS OF THE GUN AND BOX...THANKS
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/marc_310/HPIM0748.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/marc_310/HPIM0742.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/marc_310/HPIM0741.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/marc_310/HPIM0739.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/marc_310/HPIM0747.jpg

[robk]

Hi guys and gals,
I am new to this site..But I belong to about 10 different forums on firearms...Reciently I had the opportunity to trade for a Colt 1911 that is like One I have never seen before....First let me start out by saying I do know about the 1911's and I have looked up the markings and I am waiting on Colt Historic society to send me the paperwork to check out the history...
I have an Argentina Colt 1911A1 (made by Colt) in the origional Colt box with lanyard and wrapped spare magazine in wax paper...ALL #'s match the gun on the slide,frame,barrel and box...Here is the wierd part....None of the markings match the Colt Factory manufactured contract Argentine 1911's with Comercial ser.#'s and Factory government sub contract 1911's...There are no crests or import markings on the gun.I have read everything I could find on the Argentine 1911's nothing on this gun matches any thing I have researched..if you hold the gun in a shooting grip. There are no rollmarks or writing on the Left side frame or slide..On the right side on the slide just below the ejection port is the wording " in spanish"(GENGARMERIA NACIONAL) translation to "english" national army,,,
On the right side frame in front of the trigger guard is the wording as written read Armamentos/ Argentina over each other
Then WPB FL/ 45ACP...Like my example below...

ARMAMENTOS WPB FL
ARGENTINA 45 ACP

From what I make of it the Armamentos Argentina "translated"
Argentina armaments //// WPB FL.>>>> West Palm Beach Florida

In fact the exact marking are similar to BALLESTER's Ballester molina pics in his thread (one more person tells me about a battleship).I dont know if this is where it was going to be exported from..Or shipped to WPB FL for the Argentina government/military
From all the Argentina contract Colt 1911's and Systimas I have seen...I have never seen one with these markings...ANY ONE ELSE HAVE ONE??? Or SEEN ONE??? any help would be appreciated...YOU CAN SEE THE PICS OF THE GUN AND BOX...THANKS
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/marc_310/HPIM0748.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/marc_310/HPIM0742.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/marc_310/HPIM0741.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/marc_310/HPIM0739.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/marc_310/HPIM0747.jpg
i've seen similar markings on a pistol a friend of mine has in his and his wifes shop. they are collectors of guns and run a sporting goods shop here in oklahoma.
that is one nice looking pistol you have there and i am guessing it has never been shot
you have a great gun
rob k

[bgiven]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news.... but what you have is a DGFM-FMAP Sistema M1927 that someone has put in a reproduction Colt box, stamped the serial number on, and passed it off as a Colt. It looks like most of the original roll marks have been removed which were on the left side of the frame. Originally the gun would have been blued, but it now looks to be buffed and parkerized. Even the Hickok 1943 lanyard is a reproduction which can be determined by the green cord. If you go to Clawson's Government Model book... the serial number puts it in the 1950 production range.

[DuckRyder]

The:

ARMAMENTOS WPB FL
ARGENTINA 45 ACP

Looks laser etched to me, not at all in keeping with the other markings. I belive that is the importer.

[bgiven]

BTW... Colt serial number 60184 is a 1913 M1911 that shipped Dec. 24, 1913 to the San Antonio Arsenal in Texas.

[mayagrafix]

Any marks on top of the receiver, near the disconnector hole? any marks under the slide, same area? What about the barrel? under the firing pin stop? and last but not least, what's on the bottom of the magazine?

Clawson's makes reference to Argentine made Colt Sistema 1927 with all markings expertly removed with only I.P. prefaced serial number, but yours is stamped with "National Paramilitary Police" i.e. "Gendarmeria Nacional".

60184 would place this pistol in DGFM - FMAP production run of 1950

Me thinks if it was made in Argentina it would say 11.25 mm calibre instead of 45 ACP.

[marc_310]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news.... but what you have is a DGFM-FMAP Sistema M1927 that someone has put in a reproduction Colt box, stamped the serial number on, and passed it off as a Colt. It looks like most of the original roll marks have been removed which were on the left side of the frame. Originally the gun would have been blued, but it now looks to be buffed and parkerized. Even the Hickok 1943 lanyard is a reproduction which can be determined by the green cord. If you go to Clawson's Government Model book... the serial number puts it in the 1950 production range.

Actually these markings are not even close to the sistema...the markings are actually ballester molina markings.....all the serial numbers on every location on the gun do match...but there are no import marks and the molinas do not have the thumb safty... here is a picture of a ballester molina on the right side
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n320/ballester/andrew0026.jpg

[bgiven]

The serial numbers shown in your pictures are EXACTLY in the same locations and fonts of the DGFM-FMAP Sistemas, and is in the serial number range for production. Are you familiar with all the variants of the Systema... there are quite a few. As far as your import mark..... WPB, FL is a dead giveaway.

I'm sorry...it is not a Colt...... never has been.... never will be.

[DuckRyder]

Google "ARMAMENTOS WPB FL"

I even found a phone listing... Definitely an importer!

[marc_310]

Thanks for the info guys.,..... I appreciate your help.....Apperantly the left side of the frame on this gun has never had the DGFM-FMAP added the slide...that is why I was curious...the gun WPB Fl marks are import marks from Argentina to the US to be sold in the USA for Argentina surpluss. Argentina apperantly uses this importer for the systimas and ballesters..I guess so they could get money to buy new guns....You all have been a great help in identifying the gun...That is why I keep coming to these forums..there is more knoledge here than any book out there....By the way....a little humor to finish up with....this Systima shoots straighter than my 1991 colt officers model....

[mayagrafix]

A Ballester-Molina pistol does not have
A: a grip safety;
B: a separate mainspring housing (it is integrated into the grip as one piece).

The pistol in the picture has both. If it is a DGFM - FMAP Sistema 1927 then it was made from blueprints bought directly from Colt. Also the slide serrations are different on the B-M than the ones on Colt-Sistemas. The magazine catch locks are also different. Although it cannot be seen in the pictures of the boxed pistol, I'm sure if you compare to the B-M they are different

BTW, Bgiven, good call on the lanyard ;)

[OD*]

I have an Argentina Colt 1911A1 (made by Colt)
No sir, only the first 10,000 pistols were made in Hartford by Colt.

[Doran]

That style GENDARMERIA NACIONAL mark is fairly common although I believe those I've seen had the rest of the std nomenclature on the slide. Are the magazines pinned and do they have any marks on the baseplates?

[Cocked & Locked]

...so what is it, just another enigma in the gun world? How about a refinished (parkerized) Sistema that was not roll marked on the left side of the slide for whatever reason...or removed?

Then, as suggested earlier, placed in an empty box made to "appear" numbered to the pistol?

What are those other doo-dad markings on both sides of the slide? In the pics, the slide looks like it may have been clamped in a vice.

iT cErTaInLy LoOkS nIcE aNd VeRy InTeReStInG!

Somebody Somewhere Knows