mainspring length?

[biggsie]

I have a commander sized 1911 and I just got my order from brownells. I ordered a 20lb wolff mainspring. Upon installation I found that the new spring is about 3/4" longer than the original :confused: The package the spring came in says "commander" so whats the deal do I have to trim down the spring for a commander? Thanks in advance for the help!

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/biggsie24/SAM1911/1911009.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/biggsie24/SAM1911/1911010.jpg

[Hawkmoon]

When you say "Commander sized," that sets off alarm bells for me. Is the mainspring housing the same length (height) as a full-size (Government/M1911A1) MSH? If not, then you should not have ordered a Commander spring. What make and model pistol is this for? Is it possible the MSH is Officer-sized?

On the other hand, if the MSH is the same size as an actual Colt Government/Commander MSH, it is possible that the spring you have in it now is incorrect, or has taken a permanent "set." It's always a bit "iffy" to compare springs from different sources, because free length is not the only factor that contributes to the springs strength or rating. Other factors are wire diameter and number of coils. (Outside diameter of the coil also contributes, but since these have to fit in the same hole we'll assume that's that same.)

[biggsie]

Hawkmoon, Thanks for the quick reply! My 1911 is a SAM. I'm not sure if the MSH is the same size as a gov't model as I don't have one to compare it to. I do know that the grips are the same size as the gov't model.... The wolff spring will fit but it's fully compressed when I do so. The MSH measures 2" long does that help?

[wichaka]

Commanders take the same main spring as full size 1911's......which is why the package mentions all the full sized models.

I'm guessing the old spring has taken a set, which is why it is shorter.

Try the new one.....cock the hammer by hand, and watch/feel for spring bind.

[biggsie]

I did try the new one, it won't work because it becomes fully compressed when installed.

[Hawkmoon]

I did try the new one, it won't work because it becomes fully compressed when installed.
Okay, you're getting coil bind. Something's amiss.

Please measure the free (uncompressed) length of the original spring and the free length of the new spring. Also measure the lengths of the two retainer pins (top and bottom of the spring) that fit into the MSH. And the overall height of the MSH. If you can drop a small rod or dowel into the bore of the MSH, also measure the depth of the hole. The bottom is tapered, so try to use something small enough to measure to the bottom of the taper at the center of the hole.

If the pistol takes standard Government grip panels (which a Commander should, and SAM is one of the few clone manufacturers whose "Commanders" are the correct 4-1/4" barrel length), the MSH should be the correct height. But ... Murphy's Law being always in operation, one should never assume anything.

BTW -- don't go clipping coils off the new spring, or you'll defeat the purpose of buying a 20-pound spring. Clipping coils makes the spring stiffer. You may get it to fit -- but you won't have any idea what it's strength is.

[biggsie]

Well I tried to install the spring again last night and this time it worked! I must have had one of the plungers installed wrong the first time(newbie:}). Anyway I found it strange that the old spring was so much shorter, the new spring is a 20lb and is much stronger than the one I removed. Oh well at least I KNOW what # spring it has now.

Thanks for the replys!

[Lazarus]

Assume for a moment that your Wolff spring is correct for your gun. At some point, any spring you put into the MSH is going to stack up and bind. The question is where. Pay attention to how much spring compression is taking place when you install the MSH with the hammer down (slide off the gun). Usually you want just a little compression at that point, so you can put the gun together without using a vice.

It is not unusual to have to adjust the hammer strut length a little, especially when using new parts. The hammer should be able to swing all the way back without any feeling of coil bind. Naturally, you can remove coils from the spring. That will alleviate your coil bind, but it will also reduce the spring weight and change the way the spring stores and releases its energy. Be sure you have the right spring first, of course.

-L

[Hawkmoon]

It is not unusual to have to adjust the hammer strut length a little, especially when using new parts. The hammer should be able to swing all the way back without any feeling of coil bind. Naturally, you can remove coils from the spring. That will alleviate your coil bind, but it will also reduce the spring weight and change the way the spring stores and releases its energy. Be sure you have the right spring first, of course.
I'm not a professional gunsmith, but I'm going to have to disagree on this one. The hammer strut is supposed to be a specified length. Especially in a functional pistol, there should not be any need to "adjust" the strut when fitting new parts. Especially not if the part is the mainspring, because the spring is held captive inside the MSH and it's uppermost position is fixed by the mainspring cap and pin. Shortening the hammer strut will result in the hammer not compressing the spring fully, altering the spring's rating unpredictably. The same thing happens when you trim coils -- you shorten the spring, but you no longer know what it's rating is.

The bottom line is, if the pistol worked before and you get coil bind after installing a new mainspring ... you got the wrong spring.

[wichaka]

It is not unusual to have to adjust the hammer strut length a little, especially when using new parts.


Hmmmmmm :scared:

[Lazarus]

Well, folks, I do want to repeat that getting the proper spring is first on the list of priorities. Next, after a little thoughtfulness, you can see that the amount of mainspring movement is going to depend upon the style of hammer you use. Specifically I refer to where the strut pin is located with respect to the hammer axis. That point is not fixed, or universal. Next comes a new hammer strut - that is also what I referred to when I said "when fitting new parts". Typically they are long. Then, you adjust the length to avoid coil binding. So, the strut is just one more part that is not really "drop-in"...is it?

In closing, I would much rather adjust the strut length than cut a spring. I might even say that spring cutting itself is the mark of a poor craftsman. Once in a while, however, it might be necessary if the proper spring is not available. Beyond that, it was my intent to add other possibilities, given the number of people who are routinely surprised when a replacement part does not seem to work correctly.

-Lazarus

[Lubaloy]

At least some of the hammer struts produced by Extreme Engineering and marketed by Cylinder and Slide (and others),
are manufactured oversized in regards to length.
I don't know why......but I do know I have had to shorten them.
:o

[1911Tuner]

At least some of the hammer struts produced by Extreme Engineering and marketed by Cylinder and Slide (and others),
are manufactured oversized in regards to length.
I don't know why......but I do know I have had to shorten them.
:o

Which is why I stick to Colt's hammer struts...besides which they're much beefier than the original design, even though I can't use'em to push the sear pin and firing pin without a little modification at the bottom...that's not major surgery.

[Lazarus]

One thing though, the Colt strut may be "correct" but as I mentioned the amount of movement in the mainspring is going to depend upon which (aftermarket) hammer you have selected! The ones with larger radial dimensions are going to move that spring a little more than the ones with small radius dimensions. No magic here, just a little clear thinking. Wouldn't you rather have a slightly longer strut so you can adjust it. Geez, its only 10 or 20 thousandths we are talking about here. Give me a break!

-L

[1911Tuner]

One thing though, the Colt strut may be "correct" but as I mentioned the amount of movement in the mainspring is going to depend upon which (aftermarket) hammer you have selected! The ones with larger radial dimensions are going to move that spring a little more than the ones with small radius dimensions. No magic here, just a little clear thinking. Wouldn't you rather have a slightly longer strut so you can adjust it. Geez, its only 10 or 20 thousandths we are talking about here. Give me a break!

-L

No. I wouldn't. I'd rather use a standard strut so as to preserve the geometry and just compensate for any interference by reducing the dimension of the cap and retainer. Guess I'm just too old-school. Maybe I should retire and pass the baton on to the next generation.

And this statement:

>>Ok, you've heard it from the horse's mouth. Buy your Colt hammer struts right here, step right up!<<
********************

Was uncalled for. I donate my time and very often my personal labor here to help find the right solution to a given problem.

[Hawkmoon]

One thing though, the Colt strut may be "correct" but as I mentioned the amount of movement in the mainspring is going to depend upon which (aftermarket) hammer you have selected! The ones with larger radial dimensions are going to move that spring a little more than the ones with small radius dimensions. No magic here, just a little clear thinking. Wouldn't you rather have a slightly longer strut so you can adjust it. Geez, its only 10 or 20 thousandths we are talking about here. Give me a break!

-L
Any hammer worth spending real money on should have the same radial dimension and strut hole location as a "standard" (i.e. in spec) hammer, obviating any need to adjust anything by trimming the hammer strut or using one that's extra long. If I got a hammer that wouldn't work with a standard strut I'd throw it back.

[1911Tuner]

Any hammer worth spending real money on should have the same radial dimension and strut hole location as a "standard" (i.e. in spec) hammer, obviating any need to adjust anything by trimming the hammer strut or using one that's extra long. If I got a hammer that wouldn't work with a standard strut I'd throw it back.

For real, Bro. I've got headaches enough with the endless stream of "Drop-In" parts that are so far out of spec that I'd have a better chance of makin'em work if I just hit'em with a 16-ounce ball peen hammer. No sense in askin' for trouble buyin' a part that's deliberately made out of spec. ;)

[Lubaloy]

Tuner,

Your generosity here is greatly appreciated! :)

As far as the relocated strut pin location on a hammer.......well the Colt Gold Cups got that ball rolling. It does not materially effect the mainspring compression. What it does is almost 'overcam' the hammer at fullcock, putting less poundage on the hook/sear interface. It also slows acceleration of the hammer at break, increasing locktime substantially.
Many of the aftermarket superhammers use this along with altered geometry of the hammer hooks to enable an 'improved' trigger pull with simple installation.
No thanks, some of us prefer the original JMB geometry on our hammers.
:o

[wichaka]

Sometimes there's nothing better than the original......why go to a part that can cause that kind of headache?

Colt hammer struts.......and their sear springs too.

Too old school??? Is there such a term as too much fun? Too much money?

If aftermarket parts still held some of the critical dimensions needed, we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we?

I get asked by local folks as well as some on here that PM me and ask what parts I use. I tend to use the same ones over and over as they have proved to be in dimension every time. Now there's a concept!

[1911Tuner]

Ain't lookin' for accolades...Just don't need condescension and sarcasm for makin' a point on what's been workin' out for, oh...about 95 years or so. Spent too much time here and other places tryin' to lend a hand to have to wade through that kinda thing. Maybe it's time to get back to my dogs. They've recently entered the third phase of their lives...(3 years a young dog/3 years a good dog/3 years an old dog)...and their time is gettin' short.

To continue...If you'll remove the grip safety, you'll notice that the hammer will overcenter after just a bit more compression of the mainspring, and once it overcenters...the spring will start to un-compress again instead of going into coil bind...and Lub's right. I've never thought much of altered hammer geometry for the sake of gettin' a light trigger with less fuss. It's a false advantage because it increases lock time and pretty much negates any advantages gained by the lighter pull. Much better to maintain the geometry and get the desired trigger action the right way.

[gbw]

Would you guys mind mentioning the aftermarket hammers (and any other parts that come to mind) that ARE normally made to spec?

It would be a huge help to those of us without the experience to know of parts which are and which aren't, and also save money and aggrevation for everyone.

I think I remember Tuner, for example, speaking well of Brown HC hammers, and Colt struts (obviously).

In my case, I'd like to know about C&S hammers, sears, disconnects, and C&S, Wilson, Brown, EGW, and Caspian 'other' parts. I understand this is asking a lot....

Speaking for all of us, I believe, the help of you Pros has been, continues to be, irreplaceable. Thank you.

[1911Tuner]

I like the barstock Brown Hardcore hammers mainly because they endure well, but if you'll place one next to a Colt hammer, you'll notice that the hooks and the half-cock notch are rotated a few degrees forward. Makes for a quick and dirty way to achieve a nicer trigger, but pretty much does the same thing
as Lubaloy described by slightly overcentering the strut and mainspring. Every aftermarket hammer that I've seen has this altered geometry, but I haven't seen'em all, so that only covers my own experience. I search far and wide for pre-Series 80 Colt hammers and good USGI hammers...and hoard and guard'em jealously when I find'em.

Yes. I have a few. Nope...I won't sell'em.

[auto45]

I get to ask the dumb questions...that's my job! :)

Over the years, I've had Wilson, Colt, EB and Nowlin hammers and tried mainsprings from 17-23 lbs and always used the Colt struts...that's what came with the gun. I've never had a "problem" that I've noticed. Replacement springs were longer...as I recall, since it's been a while. It's probably safe to assume that all these hammers don't have the same specs for the strut "hole".

What actually happens if there is a problem?