Series 80 Gives 1.5lbs additional trigger pull ?

[Princi]

I have a Taurus 1911, which is a Series 80 pistol, a model that I'm not too familiar with. Without the slide on the frame, my trigger pull is 3.25lbs. When I add the slide (no barrel, springs, etc), the trigger pull jumps to 4.75lbs. This is a 1.5lb increase in trigger pull. This seems rather excessive to me, and I tried pressing down on the firing-pin plunger, and it doesn't seem all that heavy.

Any ideas on what to do to decrease the pull? Is this normal? *****? Taurus doesn't advertise a 3-1/2lb pull, which is the number I read in the glowing magazine reviews, so I doubt that I can send it back to Taurus

[wichaka]

If its a carry gun, I'd leave it where it is.........

If its a target gun, you might be able to reduce some of the pressure on the sear spring.......and do some p[olishing on the sear/hammer contact surfaces.

[Frank]

FWIW personally I prefer a trigger pull at between 4 and 5 pounds as long as it is crisp, except for a dedicated target guns. Any gun that may be used for "social" purposes should probably have a trigger set around 4.5 (plus or minus a bit).

DVC

[irq23]

I am by no means an expert on this topic nor a gun smith and I am simply restating what I have heard posted by knowledable people previously on this forum.

With that being said the removal of a series 80 safety device has negligable effect on trigger pull weight.

[Princi]

...With that being said the removal of a series 80 safety device has negligable effect on trigger pull weight.
Well, I read the same thing. However, I'm getting 1.5lbs increase when I introduce the slide into the equation.

Wichaka, I tried reducing some of the weight by forming the springs for both the sear and the disconnector. I didn't do any polishing because the trigger is crisp and without the slide, I'm getting 3.25lbs. I then remove the hammer stop (From Brownells: http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/080929000.jpg ), and replace it with the slide. Once I do that, my trigger pull goes to 4.75lbs (it was originally 5lbs before the spring tension adjustment).

Incidentally, this is only going to be used for target shooting. I only have one 1911 that I ever carried for defensive purposes, and that is the small Kimber, and I only carried it once. Normally, I carry an Ultralite 357 Magnum.

[auto45]

Sounds like a job for a pistolsmith to be honest.

But, there is "friction" between the two levers also. They contact each other, the frame, trigger bow, pins, FP plunger and plunger hole, etc. They can all add up in addition to the plunger spring weight.

That's my guess looking at my Colt and "reading" about "polishing" done to these parts.

I'd let someone experienced do this if you want to get down to the 3lb range IMHO. Money well spent if you want a good target trigger.

I'm not even sure the Taurus is the same as the Colt system?

[wichaka]

Take out the firing pin safety schtuff in the slide, then try the trigger pull.

Let's start there......

[Nitrox]

Take out the firing pin safety schtuff in the slide, then try the trigger pull.

Let's start there......

This sounds like the culprit to me.

There is a spring in the slide that hold the firing pin safety plunger in the down position. When you pull the trigger the firing pin safety lever must push that spring up. If you measure the trigger pull weight without the slide you will get a lighter pull.

Princi did not say if he removed the firing pin safety so I can only assume he did not. He can either remove the FPS and install a block plate from Brownells or find a lighter spring for the plunger.

[RickB]

That little plunger spring shouldn't, alone, add a pound and a half to the pull weight. Half-pound, maybe, unless Taurus is using a stiffer spring than Colt does.

[Princi]

I did take the plunger out, measured the spring, cut off 3/4 of a coil, and stretched it out to the original size. It didn't make any difference.

I shot a few rounds through it at the range this morning before switching to the BHP, which I now have down to 3.75lbs, and I did pull a few shots. The heaviness of the trigger does bother me.

Driving home from the range, I was thinking about it (that is a guy thing - women talk on their cell phones), and I basically came up with the same premise that "auto45" said: that there is something inside in the linkage that has a lot of friction.

Incidentally, the pistol is supposed to be following the original Colt dimensions, and according to their web-site it has a "Forged Slide and Frame
". However, the internal parts have that little MIM circle.

One of the guys at the range today suggested that I "just put 1,000" rounds through it, and it will loosen up a bit. Yeah, but I won't enjoy doing it and the cost of the ammo will be almost as much as the gun cost. (Yes, I know, I know, I should load my own).

I'm going to take a nap, and then I'll tackle it again. I'll put some Dykem on the internal parts and then dry-fire it a bit and check for wear and tare.

[wichaka]

With the slide on or off, you're still going have lever friction..........if its there at all.

Detail strip the gun, and look at the sides of the hammer & sear where it contects the levers. Maybe polish them a bit.........

It could also be a disconnector problem...........either its mishapen on the end where it rides on the underside of the slide, or the slide itself was machined wrong at the disconnect slot...........and forcing the disconnect into an odd angle. I've seen this before............was very frustrating to search out the problem.

Also the levers can be contacting the slide itself a bit. Check the underside of the slide, as well as the top lever........look for any rub marks on the sides.

Adding the slide is making the problem..........the slide only affects 2 things here..........the frame levers & the disconnect.

[tombstone]

Can't say for sure, as Taurus may be different than Colt, but I did a little experiment with my Colt Series 80 Commander. I removed all the Series 80 parts (levers, plungers, and springs) and put in the frame blank from Brownells. Trigger pull was 3.75 pounds. I put the parts back in and measured the pull as 4.0 lbs. So, I left the Series 80 parts in, as the difference was less than 0.5 lbs. Good Luck!

[Joni Lynn]

My series 80 Gold Cup had a good trigger job and the parts were polished a bit. The parts accounted for a half pound extra on the trigger pull. Since it's only a range gun I had the parts removed and the pull came down a half pound which put it right where i wanted it. The combination of all those parts working together can add up.

[Azrael256]

as Taurus may be different than Colt It is. It's not quite a S80 mechanism. I haven't actually tried it, but I would be shocked if the parts interchanged.

[Princi]

Update: I removed the plunger and spring and reinstalled the firing-pin and spring. After putting the slide back the frame, the trigger pull was the same as it was without the slide. So it is definitely not the disconnector.

Then without the slide, I applied pressure on the upper lever with my finger and pulled on the trigger with the spring scale. It took quite a bit of pressure on the scale to give me the extra 1.5lbs of trigger pull. In fact it left an indentation in my finger (yes, my hands are soft - just like my head).

This thing has an internal extractor, and it creates a partial chamber for the spring/plunger to fit into. I had to partially retract the extractor in order to remove the plunger. Is this normal? With the extractor all the way in, as it would be with a chambered round, I can look down into the plunger hole and see a small amount of encroachment by the extractor (hey, its football season). Also when removing the extractor, I could see a shiny spot where it looks like either the spring or plunger is hitting it.

I also noticed that I had to pry the extractor out, but I assume this is because it functions as a spring too.

Would it be alright to just grind off the part of the extractor that is going into the plunger chamber? I really need another 1911 with an internal extractor to compare this one against. I'm not sure how I could sell the wife on that.

[wichaka]

That part on the extractor you're wanting grind off is what holds the plunger assembly in the slide.........so you'll want to leave that alone.

Yes, the extracor has to be moved to allow the plunger assembly out of the slide.

Sounds like its the plunger assembly.......might do some polishing on it, and see what happens. Unless you see something obvious.

[Princi]

That part on the extractor you're wanting grind off is what holds the plunger assembly in the slide.........so you'll want to leave that alone.

Well, it is a good thing I put this thing down last night ("The Factor" was coming on FOX News, and I wanted to watch it.), and I didn't go Dremel crazy.

I have to get ready to go to the dentist this morning, and then prepare outside for our first touch of winter. I also have to fix the furnace as the pilot light keeps going out; hopefully it is just the thermocouple. So the Taurus is going to the back burner for today.

The next thing I'm going to try, prior to polishing, is to put the slide back together, put a snap-cap under the extractor, and then try pushing down on the plunger. (When I tested the plunger and it was free, I don't know where the extractor was.)

[Princi]

Well I got back to it, and it is interesting. If I push the plunger straight down, it moves freely. However, that is not what happens when you pull the trigger. The upper lever in the frame doesn't move straight up, it is moves up at an angle. If I press against the plunger from the front as I press it down i.e. the way the lever would, I can feel resistance.

The plunger looks good, well polished, so I assume it is the hole in the slide. I've polished a lot of parts with Flitz and the Dremel, but not a hole in a slide. How do you polish/de-burr something like that?

[wichaka]

That lever should move straight up and down.......is it bent a bit?

De-burr the hole using a dremel with a fine polishing tip. Or wrap some fine emory cloth around a small dowel and polish it.

[Lubaloy]

When you push on the slide mounted plunger, you should not feel any difference dependent on angle of push.
In other words, push the firing pin block up from the 4 directions possible, and feel for a bind.
Do not substantially alter the extractor, as it retains the firing pin safety plunger.
You prolly can shorten the firing pin safety plunger spring substantially.
This will reduce the difference between slide on/slide off.
On a Colt Series 80, the difference can be safely minimalized to 1/2 lb or less.
There are many attributes of a trigger on a 1911 beyond and above the actual pull weight. I'm sure Tuner will agree that some 3lb pulls are awful and that some 5lb pulls are awesome.
Many factors here......pre-travel distance and force
overtravel distance and force
creep
weight
Above all......think safety. An 'accidental discharge' is life threatening.

[1911Tuner]

I'm sure Tuner will agree that some 3lb pulls are awful and that some 5lb pulls are awesome.

Yep. Yep. Smooth and clean is the key to a nice trigger. I like about 5 pounds with a little "rollout." For some reason, I seem to do better when I can get a feel for what the trigger is doing. Probably a throwback to all the DA revolver shootin' I've done.
Bolt-action rifle...I want 2 pounds/glass rod.

[Princi]

Wichaka, the lever is pinned at the rear by the hammer, and it is the front that is moving up, so it does come up at a slight angle. It isn't bent; I learned quickly to press it down when putting the slide back on.

I agree with you guys about triggers, weights, and crispness. This is an excellent trigger on the gun. I was impressed as soon as I pulled the trigger, but I did notice the heaviness because I'm used to 3.5 or lighter triggers (the STI TargetMaster is slightly under 3lbs, my Sig 226 X-Five is 2lbs [all measurements with my Lyman digital scale]). Since this gun will only be shot at the range, I want it somewhere between 3.5 and 3.75 lbs; I don't want to modify the gun or put in non-OEM parts. I'm very, very pleased with the accuracy of the gun, but I won't be totally in love with it until I fix this problem.

Yes, I could send it back to Taurus; yes, I could take it to a gunsmith; yes, I could shoot hundreds of rounds through it, and it would probably improve. However, I'd always remember that I had a problem with it, and didn't know how to or couldn't fix it. In other words: I'm a real jerk, but at least I know that I am.

I'm a little hesitant to do anything to the hole in the slide because you can't put metal back in. I'd like to isolate the exact cause of the binding prior to going in and just doing blanket heavy polishing.

At this point, I don't want to take any more coils off the spring because I don't have another one in stock. A quick look at my Blitzpak #3 didn't yield a spring of the exact size. I could order from Wolff, but $3.49 for such a tiny spring? Did I mention that I'm also cheap?

What is going on inside the plunger hole? I know there is contact with the extractor. There is also contact with the hole in the slide. Is there contact with the firing pin? Also, the tiny spring has to be able to compress; could it get into a binding condition?

Thanks for all your help and advice guys. As you can tell, I'm traveling in uncharted waters for me.

[albertr]

Princi,

Just wondering if you have any updates on your PT1911 trigger improvement project?

I'm in the same boat, so any information you can provide is helpful.
Thanks,
-albertr

[John]

The firing pin plunger should not touch anything when it moves. Not the firing pin (it moves in that cut-out that the S80 firing pins have), nor the extractor (the plunger moves up and down in the cut-out area of the extractor. However, since the extractor has a ledge in that cut-out area, to prevent the plunger from falling down, and since the plunger is not guided during its travel by anything else but the hole wall, it is inevitable that it will move around and touch both the hole wall and the extractor.

In custom jobs, which retain the S80 firing pin safety mechanism, both the plunger and its hole are polished. But such a significant increase in the trigger pull can not result from mere friction, it has to be some binding somewhere.