Stupid Is As Stupid Does?

[bruchi]

Been upgrading a Springfield GI:

Wilson Combat beavertail safety, sear, hammer and trigger.

Meprolight sights

Haart mercury filled tungsten full lenght recoil rod.

Wolff 18# spring

Then I get "smart" add a Wilson Combat Multi-Comp bushing/compensator, so far ok but I also get a Wilson Combat "group gripper barrel link" never mind the entire kit with the correct recoil rod, just the $7.00 link and put it in the Springfield. (flat part towards the rear)

So I shot the gun, absolutely no problems, feeds and shoots great, actually incredibly good, very tight groups, almost no recoil, don't know if this is due to the compensator, the barrel link or both but I like it.

I just took the thing apart and everything looks fine, the question is:

Will using this barrel link with a recoil rod that is not the one intended for it mess up the gun or any of it's parts?

[RickB]

The link won't do anything at all (out of the ordinary for a link, that is). Without the special guide rod, the link is just a link. Bushing comps don't do anything for you, either. The bore of the comp, large enough to allow the entire barrel to pass through, does nothing to trap and redirect the combustion gases through the ports. But, if you think the recoil is light, and you like it, then by all means, don't change a thing.

[John]

First, if you are interested in reducing felt recoil, dump the bushing compensator (it does not work, as RickB said) and dump the Group gripper barrel link (it does nothing without or even with the right guide rod, so dump it). Put the standard link in the gun. Dump the 18 lbs spring as well. Then call Brownells and order an EGW oversized firing pin stop, a 16 lbs recoil spring. If your GI has the ILS system, it's a good time to replace all the mainspring housing internals with standard ones and a 23 lbs main spring. Put these in your pistol and you will be able to see the difference in perceived recoil.

[robot1911]

I agree with John's post, except for the part about that "Group Gripper". If you use the link in concert with its included guide rod, either full length or standard, it will lock up the barrel in the same place each time and, with a match-fit barrel bushing, result in very good accuracy. It works especially well with ball ammo and a 16# recoil spring.

Bob

[John]

Could you please explain to me how this is accomplished? I mean how a flat horizontal spring, which engages a ledge on the barrel link can help your barrel lock up? Is the link's length variable? Or are the link holes oversized? And why does it work especially well with ball ammo and a particular recoil spring? How can a change in the bullets shape affect the group gripper functionality?

[robot1911]

When a stock 1911 with today's clearances goes into battery, the barrel is unsupported by the slide stop pin and is just hanging there, free to seek its own battery position. That leaf spring bears against the link and restricts its position to just one height. What that height is doesn't matter so long as it's consistent. When we fit an oversize match barrel, we lock it up so the top lugs are in contact with the slide's lugs. The Gripper doesn't do that, but at least it's consistent. And no, the link isn't adjustable nor are the holes oversized.
The bullet shape isn't relevant, either. It's the strength of the recoil spring to accommodate a ball round, or similar power factor, that must be used to push the slide into battery fully. A light load, ergo a light spring, will require some reduction of the height of the notch on the link for the slide to go entirely into battery...yep, that little spring is 'that' strong.
The Group Gripper was invented by Dan Dwyer, an old friend, now deceased, and a heck of a good 'smith and machinist. He wanted to improve the accuracy in military-type 1911's without resorting to gunsmithing...and he was successful. If you combine that Gripper with a fit barrel bushing, it'll shrink your 50 yard groups dramatically.
Sorry for the long post John, but I figure you'd want an in-depth explanation.

Bob

[John]

Why wouldn't the barrel lock in the same position without that leaf spring. Its position is specified by the link, if it does not lock on the slide stop shaft. Why would that height you mention change without the leaf spring? The link has a fixed length, the barrel locks by the link. Why adding upwards pressure to a solid object (like the link) add any more consistency to the locking position? The link does not move down when it unlocks, it moves back and down, so that spring, which adds pressure upwards only has no significant effect.

I have tried the group gripper for several years and I could never find a difference between it and the standard guide rod. And yes, the bushing was a match bushing. I've lost count of the number of times I changed between the Gripper and the standard rod, trying to see if there was any difference in accuracy. If you ask me, and this is just a personal opinion, that little spring does very little to secure the locking of the barrel in the same position, if the link is what the barrel rides in lock-up.

I just do not believe that the Gripper has any effect on the locking of the barrel. If a barrel is locking by the link, there is only one way to correct the problem. Either change the barrel or weld its feet and recut them.

[robot1911]

About all I can do is tell you that I've installed a ton of those things in service pistols and the before and after 50 yard Ransom Rest groups have been amazing. Yep, it's hard to believe that something so simple can make such a difference in a rattling military 1911. It's not a match-quality modification by any stretch, but it sure makes an observable difference.
I guess I could suggest you install one and then do the old "push down on the hood area" test. Without the Gripper, the barrel will move downward quite easily...not so with the Gripper installed.
I must admit, when Dan Dwyer first told me about this thing, I didn't believe it. We went to the range and he proceeded to test a factory, WWII loose 1911 in the Rest. Then repeated it after installing his Gizmo and a fit bushing. It made a believer out of me right there.

Johnny, what say you??

Bob

[bruchi]

FWIW - I been told by various 1911 fans that the group gripper is the best and simplest upgrade you can make to a 1911 that involves no gunsmithing, I got the link thinking that just by itself would do the trick, who knows? Maybe it helps those of us that are not great shooters to start with and to a more accurate and seasoned shooter the difference is just not that notable.

I have a vortex flash hidder on an HK Tactical that threads to the barrel and I can tell you that this thing improves accuracy but as you say perhaps on the bushing compensator thing it does not do much in the accuracy area, but it does quite a lot on the recoil one.

I just know that after adding both things, the gripper barrel link and the multi comp bushing my groups got a lot thighter and I did not became a better shooter overninght, something is doing something.

[Canuck-IL]

... something is doing something
Don't underestimate the power of psychology...placebo effects are quite real and easily demonstrated.
/Bryan

[bruchi]

Don't underestimate the power of psychology...placebo effects are quite real and easily demonstrated.
/Bryan

I don't know you at all but sometimes that is just the case and sometimes saying so is a self serving way to beieve one's intelligence is above the norm but go and tell that to a terminal cancer patient, there is a thing called "science" and there is something to it. The same way that by following some of this "science" people have created tools that you load a bule into it and comes out of a barrel in a precise manner other folks have created parts for this tools so they will perform better.

[John]

Yep, it's hard to believe that something so simple can make such a difference in a rattling military 1911.

Ah, maybe this is where the answer is. A rattling military 1911. Johnny has pointed out that even a full length guide rod can improve the function of such a pistol. I am not talking about rattling, WWII pistols, I do not have access to one of these. What I am talking about is normal, mass-produced 1911s, like a Colt S80 or a Springfield Milspec.

Yes, the press checking in the ejection port shows that more force is needed to press down on the barrel hood, but it all depends on the pistol itself and the relationship of the Gripper's link to the original link in the pistol. And there is also the question for how long this thing will keep offering the same effects. After shooting about 2000 rounds through my pistol with the gripper, the little spring almost fall out by itself.

Sorry, I need more evidence to believe in this thing.


FWIW - I been told by various 1911 fans that the group gripper is the best and simplest upgrade you can make to a 1911 that involves no gunsmithing, I got the link thinking that just by itself would do the trick, who knows?

Who knows? Those who have spend some time studying the mechanics of the 1911 know. The link by itself does not do a single thing to help you in accuracy or functionality. Except of course, if your pistol had the wrong link to start with, and it just happened that the gripper's grip was the proper size for it.

I have a vortex flash hidder on an HK Tactical that threads to the barrel and I can tell you that this thing improves accuracy but as you say perhaps on the bushing compensator thing it does not do much in the accuracy area, but it does quite a lot on the recoil one.

Have you tried to remove the flash hider and see how your groups are, compared to those with the flash hider?

I just know that after adding both things, the gripper barrel link and the multi comp bushing my groups got a lot thighter and I did not became a better shooter overninght, something is doing something.

If by just adding the link and the bushing compensator your groups improved, go get yourself a decent, simple bushing. Mic the outside diameter of your barrel and the inside diameter of your slide. Then give those dimensions to EGW and for 20$ they'll make you a pre-fit bushing for your gun. Then you can replace your compensator with it and still have the accuracy that you have now, if not a better one.

[Canuck-IL]

Originally Posted by Canuck-IL Don't underestimate the power of psychology...placebo effects are quite real and easily demonstrated.
I don't know you at all but sometimes that is just the case and sometimes saying so is a self serving way to beieve one's intelligence is above the norm but go and tell that to a terminal cancer patient, there is a thing called "science" and there is something to it. The same way that by following some of this "science" people have created tools that you load a bule into it and comes out of a barrel in a precise manner other folks have created parts for this tools so they will perform better.
I really don't know what to make of your post as it is rather hard to interpret. Your comments to date on the effects of a bushing comp and half a group gripper do not evidence any 'scientific' (rational, objective, repeatedly demonstrable) approach.

Placebo effects ARE in fact quite real so, if you find your GI 45 to be more accurate with less felt recoil using a bushing comp and half a group gripper, go enjoy shooting it. It is not necessary to convince anyone here that it makes any sense.
/Bryan

[1911Tuner]

I tried that group gripper thing when they first appeared...always being a walking question mark...just to see what difference it would make. I tried it in several stock guns, including a few of my old GI pistols. In some, it made a remarkable difference in accuracy, mostly cleaning up the tendency to vertically string the shots. In others, it made very little to no difference.
In a couple, it stopped the guns from functioning due to vertical dimensional tolerance stacking.

It's probably more a matter of how bad the gun was to start with as to how much improvement you'll see. If the gun strings its shots in a 6-inch line at 25 yards, it'll make a big difference. if the gun shoots clean, round groups, it won't make much.

As to the original question...I don't think it would hurt anything, assuming that the barrel isn't riding the link hard.

[bruchi]

I really don't know what to make of your post as it is rather hard to interpret. Your comments to date on the effects of a bushing comp and half a group gripper do not evidence any 'scientific' (rational, objective, repeatedly demonstrable) approach.

Placebo effects ARE in fact quite real so, if you find your GI 45 to be more accurate with less felt recoil using a bushing comp and half a group gripper, go enjoy shooting it. It is not necessary to convince anyone here that it makes any sense.
/Bryan


I started this thread, SIMPLY trying ot find out if using the group gripper link "sans" the correct recoil rod would damage my gun, not to convince anyone of anything.

As a response I am told that I am fooling myself (placebo) into believing it does anything at all. Thanks for the vote of confidence but I can tell there's a positive difference after I added the compensator bushing and the link, what is doing what is beyond me.

Still same way you improve a car's horsepower by adding nitro maybe you can improve a gun's performance by adding this or that, what rules all of this are the laws of science. Which particular ones apply here are again beyond me but this does not automatically means it is not the case.

Of course I have shot my HK Tactical with the Vortex Flash Hidder and without it, how else could I tell if there is a difference? And there is a noticeable one, it is suppose to improve accuracy 30%, I agree.

You know I am sort of a "purist" when it comes to 1911 COLTS, old ones, we all know abut the new ones, I have a couple of the older ones and I will not mess with them, a Springfield 1911, they are very fine guns but not "sacred" as the old Colts.

[John]

Well, I think I tried to explain to you what possibly have happened with the compensator. And the link. No one said you are fooling yourself, but there is no black magic here. The laws of physics apply. But also, the human factor can't be eliminated, hense the pacebo effect.

[robot1911]

It appears to me that this thread is sounding remarkably like the old "Full-length Guide Rod" discussions that have endured ad-infinitim in other Forums.
IMHO, the FLGR does nothing to improve the accuracy in nearly any 1911. The Gripper does make a difference in most 1911's.
And, as John commented about the "rattlin' WWII 1911", it's most definitely akin to the series 80 Colt and Springfields as the excessive clearances are identical and nearly anything that adds control to the barrel at Battery will improve consistency and therefore accuracy.
A gizmo such as the Group Gripper actually helps most 1911's, whereas a gizmo like the "Compensator Bushing" does nothing to reduce felt recoil.
And I think Johnny best described it. If a 1911 shoots a decentely shaped group at 25 yards, the Gripper won't have much effect...but if the target looks more like a "00 Buckshot" pattern than a "Group", the change will be dramatic.
I can't testify to the long-term effects of the Gripper because I've never tested it...but John just reported the first instance of the spring "almost falling out" that I've heard.

Bob

[John]

... it's most definitely akin to the series 80 Colt and Springfields as the excessive clearances are identical ....

Huh? My Colt is a Series 80 and I didn't see any improvement with it.

I can't testify to the long-term effects of the Gripper because I've never tested it...but John just reported the first instance of the spring "almost falling out" that I've heard.

LoRL, there is always a first in life, every single day. :) :D

Is it possible that the Grippers you were using with those rattling pistols were full-length ones? A FLGR will definitely help in such a pistol, ask Johnny, he will tell you.

[robot1911]

Well John, I suspect your series 80 is one of those that does shoot 'acceptable' groups and wouldn't be helped by the gripper. The gripper will only do so much because it doesn't usually place the barrel's lugs in contact with the slide's lugs. Close...but no cigar!!
And no, the grippers I've installed have been "mostly" standard-length guides...like the originals. I have put in a few with the FLGR because that's what the customer wanted but I still maintain that the FLGR does zero to improve accuracy in itself...although it does smooth the function of the pistol if the recoil spring is slightly bent.
BTW, I had some interesting conversations with a pretty fair pistolsmith back in the 50's about doing something to lock up the barrel without welding the lugs. We had several ideas but nothing like Dan's little gizmo. That 'smith was Jim Clark...of "Accuracy Tuner" fame, among many others.

Bob

[bruchi]

Well, I think I tried to explain to you what possibly have happened with the compensator. And the link. No one said you are fooling yourself, but there is no black magic here. The laws of physics apply. But also, the human factor can't be eliminated, hense the pacebo effect.

I'll add this, I got the compensator after I tried the one my brother got for a Kimber Team Match II, it also made a noticeable improvement there, as I have read what the compensator does is dissipate the gasses that come out of the barrel away from the bullet path and this makes for the added accuracy and less recoil. Now this is something I read somewhere, I am not the author of this info.

Then when I go to the range I take with me 3-4 guns, this placebo effect seems to only occurr on the gun's my brother and I have installed this bushing compensator on.

TWIMC: Look you can tell me this add on's so nothing for you, I wil respect this but telling me you KNOW what it does for me is just not acceptable

At least one positive thing is comming out of this, as my brother's gun does have the compensator and does not have the group gripper link installed it kinda makes sense.

Seems that the placebo effect runs in my family.

[1911Tuner]

Bruchi..I answered the question in post #14 at the bottom. ;)


Now, John...Hold on a dagnab minnit! I said once that a FLGR will help keep the slide trackin' straight in a gun that has enough vertical slop to throw a cat through, and keep the spring from beatin' a rivet on the end of the standard guide rod...and it will. Put me down as no great fan of the FLGR. :D

[John]

I have put in a few with the FLGR because that's what the customer wanted but I still maintain that the FLGR does zero to improve accuracy in itself.

There is a thread somewhere in here, where Johnny explains why a FLGR may help a rattling pistol. I've never handle such a pistol myself, so I won't know.

As I said, my experience is only with my Colt. It didn't do anything to the normal shooting accuracy of the gun, probably because it is a tight pistol as it is, locking correctly.

As for bruchi, it seems that you want to believe that theory about the compensator, which you read somewhere you do not remember. DO me a favor. Get a set of accurate calipers and measure the internal diameter of your bushing compensator and of the bushing you had on the pistol before. Also, measure the inside diameter of your slide, where the bushing goes and the outside diameters of your compensator and your bushing. Then report back to us your findings.

Hey Johnny, I am no fan of FLGR either, you should know that!!

[1911Tuner]

There is a thread somewhere in here, where Johnny explains why a FLGR may help a rattling pistol. I've never handle such a pistol myself, so I won't know.

And they do. I had an old 1918 Colt come to me through a friend who was tired of dressing the ding on the standard guide rods...and of replacing them and the kinked recoil springs after every range session. He was disgusted with it, and offered it to me for 100 bucks...which I jumped on like a hungry duck on a fat bug. Too busy to
peen the badly-worn rails, I slipped a FLGR in it and took it to see if it functioned okay...and it did...and without any more damage to the spring.

A couple weeks later, I peened the rails down and squeezed the slide a bit to remove as much of the slack as I could...replace the FLGR with a WW2 USGI guide...and carried the gun for several years. Still do on occasion. After the slide cracked in the port, I turned it into a "Black Army General Officer's Model" with spur hammer and standard grip safety. It's pictured on the spread photo that I posted a while back.
It's got slide to frame play that's about average for a
NRM Colt...looks like somethin' the dogs found on the road dead...but runs like a Timex watch and shoots into 3 inches at 25 yards. Total investment: About 250 dollars US.

:lh:

[gbw]

How much does the 'bushing compensator' weigh?

I've never seen one, but I suppose if it's heavy enough it acutally could reduce felt recoil, that combined with gas porting upward that may attenuate muzzle flip a bit if the bore size is close to bullet dia.

It would surely add to the upper lug shear stresses on firing.

[bruchi]

Bruchi..I answered the question in post #14 at the bottom. ;)

I did read that, thanks a lot. Thanks too to all that contribued to my education, at least for me this particular post has run it's course, feel free to continue among yourselves.

You know, I am new here and I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone, seems that I might had openned a can of worms, I try to keep an open mind about everything, try is the operative word, also I do know that what might had been the gospel some years, decades ago might not hold up today.

I like the Haart rod I have on the Springfield, the Group Griper link by itself, without the dedicated rod is redundant so I will take it out, maybe one day in my open mindness I'l get the GG rod and try it out.

Be it due to placebo or whatever on the part of my brother and I we like the Comp bushing and what it "does" so I am keeping that one.

[John]

Be it due to placebo or whatever on the part of my brother and I we like the Comp bushing and what it "does" so I am keeping that one.

That's fine by me, as long as you know why you keep it, what it does for you, and how it does it.

Going around and saying that the compensator is making your gun more accurate because it dissipates the gases from behind the bullet, does not only show your lack of understanding, it is also a bad service to our pistol. To the shooting sport in general. Newbies look up to more experienced shooters to learn. If that's what you will teach them, you obviously do a bad service to the shooting community. Not even the vendors who sell those compensators do not advertise that they increase the pistol's accuracy.

We tried to teach you. You do not want to understand.

I am out of here.

[bruchi]

We tried to teach you. You do not want to understand.

I am out of here.


We'll not the most insightfull words I have ever come accross, actually, a complete 360 from it. Socrates said the most intelligent thing a human being has uttered, "All I know is that I know nothing"

You know all there is to know.

This was not "a friend told me..." post, it is a report on an actual experience, how do you manage to be 100% that this is a "flawed" experience is beyond me but then I do not know all.

I want to understand, actually that is my life motto and this irks in particular those that have already made up their minds they "know" all.

To learn anything is a total waste of time, to just memorize stuff so you can repeat it like a trained parrot is not the goal, to understand you have to be open to all posibilities, even those that come from a self proclaimed newbie.

Learned professionals with college degrees built the Titanic to what was then state of the art technology, way before that tribalsmen in the Pacific made boats with their hands, came up with the triangular sail and got around incredibly long distances by just reading the tides.

One of the world's most respected statiticians decided he was going to prove that astrology was a lie, he did his "bean counting" and ended proving that astrology was right on the money, of course there are astrologers and then there are "astrologers".

Please do not ask me the name of this fellow, or when he did this as I don't memorize names, dates, etc. I, much rather understand the substance of things.

Sir, you take a lot for granted, but that is just my humble opinion.

[1911Tuner]

If I may, before things escalate over a misunderstanding...

Bruchi, if this is your first experience with the forums, the threads tend to veer off-topic at times, and go into a discussion that doesn't even address the original subject. All part of it, and can be a lot of fun and very informative at times. Hard to keep'em on topic some days.

On the other hand...You've just picked a fight with the forum owner. John is a gentleman, and he tries to maintain a board that provides correct and accurate information whenever possible.

I've seen a few of the comp bushings, and while their effectiveness in controlling muzzle flip and torque is at best a slight possibility...especially at.45 ACP pressures and gas volumes...I only see one way that they could enhance accuracy..and that's if the muzzle crown is uneven, and the bushing itself prevented the bullet from yawing as much as it would without the bushing by bumping it back toward straight-line after the exit...when the unevenly escaping gasses push on the free side of the bullet. If the gasses blow evenly around the circumference of the bullet, they should have very little buffeting effect. High-pressure centerfire rifles...sure...it's an issue...but still greatly controllable with a precise muzzle crown. Not in a
pistol cartridge that operates at near-black powder pressures, and with such a low volume of gasses.

This doesn't come from parroting, nor from a firearms periodical...nor from errornet information. It comes from 40+ years of experience with the 1911 pistol...both from the shooting and from the smithing perspective, and much experimentation and trying various innovations that appear on the market from time to time.

I don't doubt that you've experienced an accuracy improvement with a bushing. If I've learned anything, it's that nothing is impossible...that nothing is everything, but everything is something. Just that if it does improve accuracy to a noticeable degree, that you should have the barrel crown checked for concentricity. It's easy to correct if it's bad...and many are something less than optimum...and the accuracy improvement may surprise you as a result of the recrowning.

Welcome aboard.

[pdphill]

Two reasons I really enjoy this forum over some others. First, the incredible knowledge. Second, the civility. Rule Number One: It's OK to get aboard so long as you don't sink the boat.

[bruchi]

We'll, had no clue John "owns" this forum, to be honest it makes no difference to me, I appreciate greatly being educated and this has been the case in this forum on other topics, thanks again to those that had been so helpful in those areas.

I was refered to this forum by a fellow at the outdoor best forum where everyone pretty much is a standup guy and I like to include myself in that group, at least I do try to make an effort to be so, there are many folks there that have a great deal of knowledge and experience that are always more that glad to help but never in a condescendent manner. Even topics as religion and politics have been brough up there in the appropiate areas always with a lot of respect and the best of intentions.

I do not appreciate being talked down to, owner or no owner, "El Comandante" or whatever, 2000 years of experience or newbie it does not make a diference, telling a complete stranger clearly that because this and that a compensator is a useless piece of equipment is educating that person, telling him that their word is the gospel on a subject and that due to some placebo like condition (I don't recall who used this word) this complete stranger is fooling himself then add a comment as arrogant as: "we tried to teach you but you won't listen" is not educating, it is insulting.

No matter where it comes from.

[John]

Bruchi, it should NOT make any difference to you, if I am the owner of this board or not, at least not as far as this discussion is concerned. And you were NOT turned down. Everyone here tried to give you their best opinion, like we always do.

I never said my theory is a gospel. I always give my opinion with respect to others and with ways to prove it. That's what I did here as well. And I explained to you how these two changes (the compensator and the link) might have helped your accuracy.

There is no way the gripper link could have helped the accuracy of the pistol, unless it happened to be the proper size for your pistol and the original link was not. And there is no way that the compensator could have helped your accuracy unless it provides a tighter barrel and slide fit than the original bushing did. I gave you my ... theory and I gave you the way to prove who is right or wrong. If you classify that as gospel, sorry but your problems are elsewhere. If you do not like my theory, that's fine by me. Prove me yours.

And yes, I am quite picky about false information being passed around. It does no good to my favorite pistol and may get some people killed, depending on the information of course. And since I've spend the last 13 years of my life building this resource, so that people can learn about the 1911, I do not like gospel like yours, being passed to people as facts.

You stick with your theory, without trying out the "theory" of others. I'll let it to the members to decide if this is an evidence of an open mind, like you say you have.

And that's the end of my participation in this discussion.

[berkbw]

>I< am a "stand up guy"... and I am also a bit thin-skinned. I understand that an insult must be accepted before it hurts. - but that doesn't help me - seems what-I-do and what-I-know somehow don't coexist. (and the fact that I have never rated an "attaboy" here stings)

+1 on Tuner's post.

I have found that this board has the most experience, most helpful attitude, and the most acceptance of those who are in 1) error, 2) to new to know anything, or 3) those who just somehow got lost.

From time-to-time most of us post when stressed. And sometimes it shows. You, me, John, Tuner (altho I think he's almost outgrown it).

You need not "bite the bullit" - but a chill-pill might be in order. So - how about either a take-2, or just letting it lie and continue on. THIS >IS< the best board. And THESE >ARE< the best users/teachers. Most of the boards that I have seen would have already pulled your plug. John hasn't (yet). So - **** it up.. PM me if you have any private things - or try to enjoy it here.

Berk

[bruchi]

I will said this loud and clear, I am not a perfect human being, I do make mistakes all the time, get stuff wrong etc. done it before, might be doing it here and will do it again.

Why I kept on comming back to this?

Simple, telling me that I am "imagining" I shot better with this thing makes no sense, I go to the range, do everything as ususal, same target (small silhouettte) same distance (15 yards) same ammo (WWB) shoot 10 rounds, faster than slower as usual and when I retriee the target I SEE 2 things, the group is noticeably tighter and more surprising, not a single flier, as a norm I get 3-4 fliers out of 10 rounds at that speed. Only difference is the Group Gripper link and Multi-Comp.

Where is the imagination there?

Now is this so because there's a better fit of parts due to the bushing part of the Multi-Comp, link or both? Absolutelly posible and more so quite sensible.

Tell me that and refrain from telling me that I am "imagining" I shot better and I will respect and learn form this, more important still, it will also educate anyone else that reads this with doubts in this, area, but say anything, sensible or not and add that I am imagining things, when I am seeing facts, a target with closer holes and no fliers, and I will have no choice but to think you are full of it.

Perhaps I did not express this clearly before, I apologize for that.

[John]

Bruchi, if you go back and read all my posts in this thread, I am sure you will find no one in which I said that the improvement if your pistol's accuracy is imaginary. On the contrary in each and every post, I tried to explain to you the possible reasons why that improved accuracy was noticed. I gave you methods to verify my theory, I gave you clues. If another member offered the "placebo" effect idea, that's not my fault, everyone is at liberty to express his opinion, as long as it is not outside the lines.

So I am sure not full of it, as you so eloquently put it.

So put that behind you and move along. Yes, we will teach you, and don't get offensive about this. There are members here, who have probably being fixing 1911s for more years than your age. I am not included in them, I have been dealing with them for only 15 years, and I assure you that I still learn from the ... elders. That's why we are all here for, to learn. And to help others learn too.

[1911Tuner]

Verily! More has been forgotten about the 1911 pistol than most of of will ever know. I've been tryin' to crack Browning's code for 40-odd years now...
and I ain't quite there yet.

Welcome aboard, bruchi! Coffee?

[bruchi]

Before anything else I belivve in being honest, saying I am satisfied with the responses to my last reply would be a lie, so be it, such is life and is just not worth for anyone getting riled about, again, thanks for all the help, one point, as I lost track of who said what, none of my later comments where directed to anyone in particular, my apologies if this ruffled any feathers.

I am not taking this item any further, you may have the last word.