What causes a slide to sit slightly forward on the frame?

[CSG]

I have a 1944 Remington Rand I acquired recently. While it functions well, I noted the slide sits forward almost 1/16" from the back of the frame. You can sort of see it in the attached photo - look just below the hammer.

'44 Remington (http://www.fenderforum.com/userphotos/index.html?recid=38103)

[Hawkmoon]

Locking lugs cut slightly forward on the barrel, or slightly rearward on the slide, or the barrel's underlug being machined or worn so as to allow it to swing farther forward than normal.

There was a recent thread discussing another member's pistol with the same problem. Several people advised him not to shoot it, but I couldn't understand why they thought it was unsafe.

[CSG]

I was searching before I posted this but didn't come up with anything. Do you have a link per chance?

The thing is, the bore looks great so it's hard to imagine much wear on the other internals.

[1911Tuner]

Hawkmoon pretty much nailed it. Likely a slight barrel to slide misfit that may also involve the slidestop crosspin location. Also possible that the slide and frame aren't original to one another...which is pretty common with USGI pistols...and the dimensional tolerances stacked up in that direction. Could just as easily have been the slide sitting rearward off the frame. Seen it go both ways. During the final assembly and fitting, the frame/slide/barrel/extractor butt subassembly was often finished flush so that they'd match, and as long as the asemblies were mechanically within spec, it was purely cosmetic. Look closely at even some of the originals, and even though the slide and frame sit flush at the rear, the thumb safety fit in the slide will tell the tale. If there's a substantial gap at the rear, the slide was originally too far rearward on the frame. If the gap is at the front, it sat too far forward.

Not dangerous to fire as long as the headspace and lockup are good.

[CSG]

Tuner, thanks for weighing in. Is it fixable or something I should have fixed? Problem is there's no one locally who I can show it to. Any thoughts?

I got the gun in a trade from a friend who probably ran a couple hundred rounds through it. While my guess is that the slide and frame are original to each other (looking at the finish wear, lack of arsenal markings, etc.), I don't know for a fact. The only hint that they might have come from two sources is that the "P" on the slide and frame are not exactly the same based on my best guess. I've read that they should be exactly the same. Still, the wear is so even and finish so close between them they appear to be original to each other.

Fit is otherwise pretty good with slight side to side and up down movement from the muzzle end. It's by no means a "rattler". Accuracy is pretty good too and it functions well though it won't get shot much.

[1911Tuner]

As long as it functions and the accuracy and headspace are good, it's really a non-issue. The fix is a fitted barrel. If you want to see it move rearward, start slipping paper shims between the hood and breechface as the gun goes to battery, adding one more each time until it sits flush. Measure the thickness of the shims, and that's how much needs to be added to the face of the barrel hood. If the total thickness needed plus the static headspace doesn't exceed maximum allowable headspace, you can braze the hood and refit it. If it does, or if the slide won't go to battery smoothly when it has enough shims, you'll need to fit a new barrel to it.

Best WAG...Brazing the hood won't do it correctly, but you might get lucky.

[John]

I thought the hood was not supposed to touch the breechface. Johnny you are getting me confused, and at 20 to midnight, I am not at my best. Isn't welding the barrel's legs a more viable approach?

[1911Tuner]

I thought the hood was not supposed to touch the breechface. Johnny you are getting me confused, and at 20 to midnight, I am not at my best. Isn't welding the barrel's legs a more viable approach?

The slide doesn't fit tightly with the breechface in production pistols. With well-fitted barrels, it does, or has very little clearance. In tightly fitted barrels, it fits tightly against the breechface...some too tightly. Les Baer's method is one such example.

Slip shims between yours and watch at the slide as they get thicker.

[bearboy]

Johnny because of a bullseye background i always thought that a barrel should be a slight interference fit with the breech face and silver solder on barrel feet was pretty routine 30 or 40 yrs ago before all the after market barrels were available I think we paid $8.00 for new surplus natl match barrels.Welding was almost always required on barrel hoods. But i digress. I think in reading your excellent posts that your specialty is a no nonsence 100% reliable carry gun with reasonable accuracy and you would have .003 to .005 barrel hood clearance.Further if you were to build a bullseye gun you would have a less than.001 barrel hood clearance.Am i right?

[1911Tuner]

What happened to my post???

Anyway...Bearboy...Correct. Tight fit on a target gun. I wouldn't set it up as tight as some, but light interference is good. For a street gun, I like a little clearance. .003 is good. .005 is a bit loose, but still okay.

Welding the lower lug feet is done mainly to tighten vertical engagement or to raise the barrel for more vertical engagement.

[CSG]

Earlier today, I spoke to Bill Adair who suggested I try dropping in a barrel from my Norinco 1911A1 or Springfield GI to see what difference, if any, it would make. I tried each and found that the Springer GI barrel made no difference. The Norinco barrel was better by about 1/3. Both barrels seemed to fit fine and the slide locked back with a magaaine in the grip and everthing looked OK otherwise.

However, I don't know what this tells me.

[1911Tuner]

Why do my posts disappear???

Here goes..again.

The Norinco barrels typically have the lower lug located a little too far forward, which will cause the slide to sit slightly further rearward when it's in battery. Barrel stops sooner...slide stops sooner. Highly probable that the Norinco barrel will have its rearward movement stopped by the link instead of the VIS in your pistol.

[Hawkmoon]

Why do my posts disappear???
Are you certain you're hitting "Submit Reply" and not "Preview" or "Save Draft"?

[Lazarus]

I was interested to read that silver brazing (soldering) was used to build up the worn barrels during the early NM period. My 2 cents worth here is that silver brazing is an amazing substance and excels in its ability to wick up into very thin cracks in metal and fuse the pieces together. However silver is not gap filling and is definitely not something you can "build up" like a fillet. The bare braze material is not exactly suited to impact battering so perhaps I didn't get the complete story there. It works great for attaching sights to a shotgun barrel.

-L

[1911Tuner]

Are you certain you're hitting "Submit Reply" and not "Preview" or "Save Draft"?

Yep. Those are two functions that I never use.

[John]

And what happens when one of your posts disappear? Are you asked to log in again or what?

[bearboy]

Silver solder was used to add a thin strip of metal to the barrel hood and then fitted by filing. Brazing rod was used on the barrel feet.

[1911Tuner]

And what happens when one of your posts disappear? Are you asked to log in again or what?

No login request. They're just not there.


Bearboy...Yep. Been there, done that.

[bearboy]

Tuner I am sure you more than most appreciate the skill and craftmanship of the 50's and 60's gunsmiths who built Camp Perry guns out of surplus and shop manufactured parts to achieve accuracy that is equal to anything built today.R.L. shockey from Oklahoma comes to mind.

[emobley]

I have a 1944 Remington Rand I acquired recently. While it functions well, I noted the slide sits forward almost 1/16" from the back of the frame. You can sort of see it in the attached photo - look just below the hammer.

'44 Remington (http://www.fenderforum.com/userphotos/index.html?recid=38103)

I have a GI pistol with a Colt slide and Remington Rand lower that has the exact same issue. It is an arsenal rebuild.

Ed

[Lazarus]

Just went through this same thing with a 1957 commercial model. Who knows how many owners it had before me? I took one look at the Dremel marks on the feed ramp and sent it to George at EGW.

There must be a great number of military pistols that show up with the slide and frame mismatch. Whether this has happened after an arsenal rebuild, or because of the tweaking by intermediate owners would be almost impossible to tell. The only certainty happens if the gun comes with some sort of documentation that proves it was issued new to the owner.

Beyond the historical interest, a new barrel is the fix for all of these mismatched pistols. Except of course if the odd frame or slide is way out of spec. So, gentlemen, choose your barrel maker. A little patience, and few basic tools will get you a close-fitting slide and frame, plus a better shooting gun. But before you begin the project, make sure that the critical parts of the pistol have not been ruined by someone from the Dremel Corps.

-Lazarus