Food For Thought On Gb Auction

[AZ COLLECTOR]

:eek: ALWAYS REMEMBER MONEY TALKS AND WEB AUCTION RULES FLEX TWARD THE $$$$$$$ :eek:

has this ever happened to anyone else?

Open Thursday, December 30, 2004 Issue #30315
Subject: Seller Responds to GunBroker.com Inquiry
Item Number: 26689335


12/30/2004 9:49:58 AM
GBSupport1010 Seller sends the following response to GunBroker.com's inquiry regarding item 26689335:
12/30/2004 12:09:22 AM] GB Support
Buyer sends Gunbroker.com the following message:
[12/29/2004 5:33:32 PM] Ranthar [ACTIVE] Sean Duval (ncojkoj@adelphia.net)
Please note that this is a repeat problem with the seller and is wrong to do.
Made bid buy opting to buy now.
received email from gunbroker informing me i had won.
got contact info.
made contact.
seller asked for more that previously agreed amount for shipping (not the problem) but do have supporting emails. both before and after the bid.
sent the $1024.00 in the form of money orders.
seller received them.
called me on as requested in my letter(have letter it was returned with money orders)
during phone call i was informed that he DID NOT HAVE THE WEAPON in question. he was waiting for someone to mail it back to him. since my money got there before pistol and he did not have pistol and no way to get pistol he would have to return my money orders uncashed.
It is unethical to place an item for auction without possesion of the item. as i understand the rules it is also not allowed to do so under your aution system (or any other i am aware of)
the rules also state that if seller fails to complete transaction with winning bidder that you will terminate thier account. I have had just over a grand tied up in this BS for over two weeks. both my wife and i are avid collectors and shooters now i have an upset wife who had requested this for her christmas gift. I bid, was notified that i won, and the seller reniged only after funds were in his hand. AFTER I TOLD HER I HAD IT PURCHASED showed her the auction and emails.
this is totally unacceptable!
as this is the 1st major problem i have had the displeasure to expiriance on gunbroker i will be rather interested in your reply and actions. documentation of all email and scans of sent and now returned mail available if you desire them.
Please feel free to review my account as well.
sean
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[12/30/2004 12:01:37 AM] GB Support
Please complete the following to protect yourself:
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/FraudInsurance.asp
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/FraudClaimProcess.asp
Fraud FBI
File here for FBI Internet Fraud Claims
http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp
We will copy seller with your message as well as our comments. Once filed we will investigate the issue thoroughly. Thank you, Gunbroker.com
____________________________________________
To Seller "ton80":
You are one of our largest and most respected sellers here at GunBroker.com. This kind of comment from a buyer is very unusual to say the least. Please contact this buyer and reply to Gunbroker.com what is happening regarding this issue. Thank you in advance for your prompt reply. GunBroker.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[12/30/2004 8:04:24 AM] ton80 [ACTIVE] Phil Thompson (ton80@mindspring.com)
HELLO, I CONTACTED THE CUSTOMER AS SOON AS I FOUND THE PROBLEM AND REFUNDED HIS FUNDS. I SOLD THIS PISTOL TO ANOTHER BIDDER AND WHEN HE RECEIVED IT HE CALLED AND SAID HE WAS NOT HAPPY WITH IT, I TOLD HIM TO RETURN IT AND A REFUND WOULD BE ISSUED. I RELISTED THE ITEM BUT THE CUSTOMER DECIDED TO KEEP AND DID NOT RETURN IT AND DID NOT NOTIFY ME OF THIS. THEREFORE WHEN NEW CUSTOMER PURCHASED IT I DIDNT HAVE THE PISTOL TO SEND. I EXPLAINED THIS TO NEW CUSTOMER, BUT I GUESS HE WAS NOT HAPPY. I DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO.
THANKS PHIL
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[12/30/2004 9:37:04 AM] GB Support
If you refunded the buyer's payment, you have done everything you could. Thank you for responding to our message. Will forward your response to buyer and add our comments (copy to you as well). Thank you, GunBroker.com
________________________________________
To Buyer Ranthar:
This is an excellent and very honorable seller here at GunBroker.com with over 1500 completed transactions on GunBroker.com. Understand your frustration here as you wanted the item and paid for it. Seller did all he could do under the circumstances. Previous buyer said he was returning the item and then decided to keep it and did not notify the seller of this fact. While its disappointing to you, seller did the only thing he could do and refunded your payment. Both the seller as well as Gunbroker.com are sorry this happened to you (especially at Christmas). Maybe seller could locate a similar item for you? In any case, we thank you for using GunBroker.com and and sincerely appologize for the issue as it transpired.
Thank you for contacting and using GunBroker.com, “The World’s Largest Online Auction Site for Firearms & Accessories”. http://www.gunBroker.com/


12/30/2004 8:09:40 PM
Sean Duval not really that impressed with this.
i had already accomplished the same end.
is it then ok for me to list things not in my possesion?
figering that they will arrive.
and then not inform the buyers till the cash hits my desk?
this is dishonorable and not the way it works according to your own rules.
it would appear that in this case money talks and while you are a business and the seller does provide you with a profit from his sales and i am sure a reasonable one at that. i am not as profitable a customer of yours....however ethics are the issue here. please read the following quotes from your own page.

"What if I list the same item in Shotgun News, gun shows, etc?
There are two ways this can be accomplished:

If the item has not been bid on or if the Reserve Price has not been met, you can use our End an Auction function located in For Sellers to close your auction listing before its scheduled completion date. If the item currently has a winning bidder, you must consider it to be sold and must use the 2nd option.
You can direct any interested parties to the auction listing on GunBroker.com and suggest that they bid on the item.
Please always keep in mind that if the item is won here, it must be sold to the winning bidder. Although it is a harsh remedy, we terminate the accounts of seller who fail to complete transactions."

seems more like the rules bend to protect the cash flow.
i would call this a lack of integrity. how would you interpret this rule of yours?
sean
well this is the continuation/update
hope this is a learning expiriance for others as well as me.


anyone else notice that the answers they have given
do not answer or address the entire complain or question?




12/31/2004 11:22:12 AM
GBSupport1010
The ethics involved were both honorable and fair and broke no auction rules here. You just did not like the outcome. Same as returning a shirt to a department store for a flaw and they cannot replace the exact shirt. They do the best they can and refund your money. Sorry you had a bad experience but we wish we had many more sellers like "ton80" as he always does his best to address buyer's issues that come up. That’s why he has a rating of A+ on 1500 transactions. Again, we are sorry for what happened to you. There is nothing more we can do for you except apologize. Thank you, GunBroker.com



12/31/2004 1:35:23 PM
Sean Duval
your absolutely right i did and do not like it.
$$$ does talk but so do firearms forums and that is where all this will be posted if no wrong was done no worries right. i found out about GB on a forum so will others.
perhaps they can learn from my apparent mistake and i now believe that was not calling or emailing and asking specifically if the firearm was available....funny i thought thats thats why it was up for aution.
sean



12/31/2004 1:37:32 PM
Sean Duval
also the issue of my missing feedback has not been addressed. in other words you have not responded to that. was it erased? it was candid and gave an unbiased view on the transaction. this is a larger problem than the 1st.
sean




sean

[Wes Janson]

Sounds like ton80 did they best they could. Online buying, selling is always a complicated can o worms. I don't see him as having done anything wrong..

[AZ COLLECTOR]

not to sound snappy and not to be short on this one.

are you telling me listing something you don't have is ok. :confused:

that i should not expect things to have gotten pretty harsh if i told them hey i was expecting $1000.00 in the mail someone i didn't really know well said they would mail it to me? i would have been nailed as a bad bidder in a heartbeat. :eek:

i'm not saying ton80 is a monster lol. i am saying that gunbroker does not follow policy when it suits them. and i am saying that they do not answer questions that are rather valid. :mad:

i am more upset at gb then ton80 though i think he would have put the screws to me if i wouldn't have sent in the $$$ asap.

sean :o

[Wes Janson]

I imagine the law would probably ask, did ton80 have reasonable expectation to believe he would have the firearm at the time of transaction? It would seem he did. Blame would lie with the bidder who decided to tell him the gun was being shipped to him, and then not ship it. As far as what Gunbroker can do, they have strong limitations as to how much they can interefere, in their view there was nothing more they could do.

I see no reason to believe anyone involved was trying to scam or rip off anyone else. As the saying goes, s*** happens, unfortunately, and in this case this buyer (or rather, his wife) was the one who wound up losing time. It's obvious this sort of problem doesn't crop up very often, with hundreds upon hundreds of positive feedback. Unfortunately, every once in a while something weird happens, and mistakes get made. I don't think a single incident like this would necessarily show a sufficient need to change the policy. There's no real way for them to enforce it anyhow, except retroactively, in which case the damage has already been done.

[texasbatman]

Before you comment on this you need to go look at ton80's feedback. This is not the first time that he has done this. He seems to make a habit of it. He has 30+ negative feedbacks. 9 of the first ten were because he sold itmes he did not have in his posession. This gives new meaning to "Caveat Emptor". You can't sell what you do not have. What do you think John would do if you listed items for sale here and did not have them in your posession? I'll bet you would be looking for a new forum before long. Gunbroker needs to have that same mindset.

You should not list what you do not have. This scenario can be likened to a seller who buys wholesale from a company and then parcels out retail on an auction site. The seller expects to have the item by the time the buyers money arrives but due to a glitch the shipment does not come in. That seller is WRONG in having listed it in the first place. If I had been the buyer and had known he did not have ready access to the item I would not have bid on it......especially since it was a gift for Christmas.

I have had this same type of thing happen to me on another auction sight. This seller was anticipating receiving shipment before auction was over. This was a dutch auction and there were several bidders. Guess what? He did not receive shipment on time and all the bidders waited over a month for their items. This was WRONG!!!! There is no difference in these two scenarios. You can't sell what you don't have.

The seller is obviously a credible seller. He has excellent feedback. There is no doubt that he fully intended for this auction to have a happy ending. However, it did not work out that way. In this case you have a good faith buyer (who might have been able to procure the item elsewhere had he only known the seller was not in receipt of the item) who literally has a right for hard feelings. The least that Gunbroker should done is to have warned the seller against future violations of this practice regardless of sellers past history. The seller was WRONG.........period!!!!! You can't sell what you don't have.

I wrote Gunbroker and voiced my opinion. Here is a copy:

I am sure there is more than one seller doing this but I know for a fact that this seller is. An item should not be listed for auction if the seller does not have it in their posession. This is not right. As a bidder I expect the seller to have the item in their posession. I have recently read of ton80 selling stuff he did not have. I then went to his feedback and saw this is a regular occurance with him. This is not right. This is tantamount to fraud. This individual and any others with this practice needs to be warned about this and if it continues they need to be banned.

I can't bid with money I do not have. How would Gunbroker react if I claimed as a defence that I expected to have the money by the time the auction was over but due to unknown circumstances I can no longer get it? I am sure my account would be suspended quickly.

This practice needs to be stopped at once.

Thanks.

Jim

[Wes Janson]

Upon going through all of his feedback (all of it) I'd say you're probably right. He seems to have a history of selling things not in stock, or that somehow get sold while he's not in the shop. Doesn't seem to treat many people very kindly either. So..who knows. I dunno what the normal rate of problem buyers is, but for that seller it seems suspiciously high. In that case I think action should probably be taken. But, then, I'm not sure what all Gunbroker could really do to pursue the matter.

[bearandoldman]

I bought a Taurus 445 Ultralite http://www.geocities.com/oldman1727/Taurus445Ultralite.jpg from him early last summer and had no problem. My dealer had the gun the same day my check cleared the bank. Gun ws nib, just as he described and I got it for 299+shipping of 22 bucks and it was a discontinued Taurus MSRP off 550 if I remember. With that markdown I was very leery but it all came through fine.

[texasbatman]

Hi Bear......old man too. :)

Glad to hear about your purchase. This fellow seems to be on the level most of the time but occasionally he does sell stuff he doesn't have. It just doesn't seem right for a fellow to do that without stating so in the auction. I have seen auctions that say "Item is available at time of listing but may be sold out by auction end". I think that is great! At least then I know what I'm getting into if I decide to bid. Poor AZ didn't find out until it was too late for him to do anything else. Shouldn't be. Give Bear a pat on the head and a dog biscuit (or a real one) from me. Loved the story.

Jim

[bearandoldman]

From talking to one of his help on the phine and to him personally, I believe he runs a fairly high volume gun business on the internet.
As far as Bear, he never lacks for a treat, he has become agraduate beggar dog. Place I used to work we stop in and they usally have a treat for him in the back room, now when we get there he abut drags me back ther to check them out. UPS delivery man always has a couple dog cookies for him and now he expects them, if he leaves apackage on the porch when we are gone he always leaves 2 cookies. Saw a UPS man at the hardware the other day, Bear started into the back of his truck, figured Brown is where the cookies are.

[texasbatman]

We had a Golden and she was wonderful. They sure do like their treats. Sounds like Bear has the cookie business figured out. :) Hope you guys have a great day.

Jim

[texasbatman]

I voiced my opinion for what it was worth. Here it is. :)


1/4/2005 10:27:14 AM
Jim Gray
I am sure there is more than one seller doing this but I know for a fact that this seller is. An item should not be listed for auction if the seller does not have it in their posession. This is not right. As a bidder I expect the seller to have the item in their posession. I have recently read of ton80 selling stuff he did not have. I then went to his feedback and saw this is a regular occurance with him. This is not right. This is tantamount to fraud. This individual and any others with this practice needs to be warned about this and if it continues they need to be banned.

I can't bid with money I do not have. How would Gunbroker react if I claimed as a defence that I expected to have the money by the time the auction was over but due to unknown circumstances I can no longer get it? I am sure my account would be suspended quickly.

This practice needs to be stopped at once.

Thanks.

Jim



1/6/2005 12:53:29 PM
GBSupport1010
Many of our sellers here at GunBroker.com have retail stores where they sell items at retail. GunBroker.com does not require they "Block from Inventory" and item that might or might not sell at auction. When everything operates correctly the seller immediately contacts GunBroker.com notifying us that an item listed for auction has been sold at retail. We then terminate the auction listing without any possible winners. This also happens to New Items listed for auction at the seller's store that a seller has constant orders for. He can never be sure when the factory shipments will be delayed or come in or how many he will sell in the store prior to the delivery of his orders from a vendor. You mentioned "ton80". He is a large and honorable seller with an (A+) rating on over 1500+ transactions here at Gunbroker.com and has always done his best to work with a buyer when this issue comes up. It does happen, but it is very rare. It is often not as you say regarding "not having an item when initially listed". More often than not, it simply means the item sold at retail before everyone was able to be notified. Understand your frustration and will pass your comments on to the seller as stated. Members should never send payment until the Seller has been contacted and all the arrangements to complete a transaction has been made. Thank you for your concern and comments, but this certainly is not Fraud. You need look no further than your local grocery store to see similar issues. A store advertises a product, and when the customer appears to buy the product it is not available due to a retailer being sold out. Store does everything possible to secure the product for the unhappy consumer at the advertised price, but cannot do so in every case. Thank you again for contacting GunBroker.com Support.





1/6/2005 1:56:06 PM
Jim Gray
There is a difference in "my local store scenario". If I go there and the item is sold out I can go to another store the same day in an attempt to find it. I don't have to wait several days to find this out. I also don't have to give the local store my money before finding out. You are correct about his 1500+ Positive feedbacks. But have you looked at his 30+ Negative feedbacks? The majority of his negatives are for this very same thing. What if he only had 10 or 15 feedbacks? Would you be as forgiving? He makes a habit of selling stuff he does not have at auction end. If he has the item for sale in his retail store then it should be so stated in the auction listing and once the item has a winning bid he should be bound to uphold his part of the bargain. After all, a winning bid is binding on the bidder and it should also be binding on the seller. You should be as rigid with sellers who do not complete the auctions as you are with buyers. This should apply not only to ton80 but to any seller.

Thanks.

Jim



1/7/2005 8:07:46 AM
GBSupport1004
I will forward your concerns to our Fraud Department to take a look at the seller. The seller has a right to list an item for sale not in their immediate possession, as long as the item is available in a reasonable period of time. We do have a lot of sellers that list new items that they can readily get from a manufacturer and we do not have an issue with that. We do not specify what a reasonable timeframe is. That is between the buyer and seller to work out. If the seller does not have the item in stock and cannot supply it to the buyer, the buyer has the right to a complete refund and can leave appropriate feedback. If a seller accumulates negative feedback, then we will terminate their account.



1/7/2005 9:56:29 AM
Jim Gray
Thanks a lot. I am not picking on this one seller. It is the practice that bothers me. For the perfect example of a retailer that sells what he does not have just look at Gunfinder.net.

Thanks again. In the future, when dealing with a retailer, I will make it a point to always ask if this item is in stock.

Jim

[bearandoldman]

Guess I was one of the lucky ones dealing with ton80. As I specieid the gun was at my FFL holder before the check cleared the bank. The man held up his end after we made final agreement over the phone in person with the owner. I would deal with him again.

[texasbatman]

Hi ya'll. I really think ton80 is an honorable fellow. This is just a bad practice. The perfect example of a retailer selling stuff he does not have is "gunfinder.net". He had almost 1200 positives before his demise. :)

Woof Woof WoooooooFFF to Bear......he'll understand......and have a good day to the oldman.

Jim

[bearandoldman]

Hi ya'll. I really think ton80 is an honorable fellow. This is just a bad practice. The perfect example of a retailer selling stuff he does not have is "gunfinder.net". He had almost 1200 positives before his demise. :)

Woof Woof WoooooooFFF to Bear......he'll understand......and have a good day to the oldman.

Jim
Yes he was in a little town about 12 miles west of me and all he had was a little storefront office and no sotk to speak of. Sold everything without having it, he lasted longer than I though the would. Never was stupid enough to deal with him either, know a guy that bought a couple SKB shotguns fro him and he way way too high, I bought some NIB on Gun List for 500 bucks less.

[texasbatman]

You did good. There are a lot of folks a little mad at him. He messed a lot of them over. Glad you did ok though.

Give Bear a pat and a hug. Have a great one.

Jim