Gun grouping question? Test group vs real world.

[BAArcher]

How many of you guys/gals own a gun that was sold with a test pattern of 2" or less?
Of you shooters, how many have you ever been able to duplicate it with over the counter ammo?
I do understand they use support devices but I am just trying to gage my work on a new gun. I am able to keep a tennisball sized group off a sandbag at 20 yards, ammo is Walmart Blazer Brass 230gr round nose.........

[Weg Ban]

I would observe that you're doing quite well IMHO. 3-inches or so at 60 feet is more than respectable. As far as the "advertised" tight groups, as has been observed here more than once, if you fire enough 3- or 5-shot groups, you'll get one that's tight enough to make it into the picture they put in the gun magazines. Or else, they fire them with a Ransom Rest and unless you're some sort of cyborg, that tells you little or nothing about how the weapon performs in the hands of human being.

All of my handguns (Colts, S&Ws and one Browning) are far more accurate than I. I practice to put large groups (25, 30 or more rounds) all in the 9-10 ring of a standard silouette target at reasonable distances (my definition of such being 40-feet, shorter than yours). It has also been my experience that modern ammunition (US made stuff, I don't use the eastern European stuff) is pretty good too, sloppy groups are my fault, not the gun, not the cartridges.

[Joni Lynn]

I have several 1911's that have been shot in a ransom rest and with good match ammo, (usually federal 185 match) are capable of doing 2" or less at 50 yards. Realistically I don't ever expect to achieve anywhere near that myself but I can tell the guns are more accurate than I am which gives me a goal to shoot for.

[BAArcher]

I am my own worst enemy at times! I understand my abilities and the limitations that the "human" touch adds to the equasion. I am still curious as to the difference between top shelf ammo and my Walmart OTC stuff.
I feel my next conquest will be with a Dillon press in search of the perfect load!!

[wichaka]

If you looked at the pistol tests I've done for the e-zine, all the guns were shot in hand, not from a bench, or in a rest.

I think this is the best way for testing, to see what they are capable of doing in your hands.

If the barrel has a good fit, its all acedemic from there.

[nick50471]

If you looked at the pistol tests I've done for the e-zine, all the guns were shot in hand, not from a bench, or in a rest.

I think this is the best way for testing, to see what they are capable of doing in your hands.

If the barrel has a good fit, its all acedemic from there.

I disagree. You can't test a gun with your hand and expect a reader to believe he is able to mach it. Your arch of movement, trigger control and grip are all different. That is why a gun is shot from a ransom rest. To show exactly what the firearm is capable of with a given ammo at a given distance.


Your quote should read, "capable of doing in my hands".

my two cents

[Canuck-IL]

I believe that Rock River uses Fed match 185 for their accuracy guarantees ... others (Wilson, Baer) use custom but not exotic loads (Bullseye, V310)...it remains uncertain how many 5 shot groups were attempted to get the target that is shipped with the gun.

Also, since a Ransom Rest locks the frame of the pistol in, I think it demonstrates only the lower limit of what the gun is capable of since slide-frame play cannot be compensated for. Same reason slide mount dots are more popular in Bullseye than frame mounts. That is why the tales of a High Master shooter outperforming a Ransom Rest are not all apocryphal.

Yes, I know new Baer guns have so little play it takes 2 men and a 6-pack to break them open but I'd still take Zins over a Ransom in the long haul.
/Bryan

[littledoc]

The firearm is only a part of the system, which also includes the shooter. A Ransom group is interesting but academic. IMHO, I think we put too much emphasis on group size, anyway.

For a gun used in defense, the difference between a 2" and 3" group at 25 yards is pretty moot. Besides, if you take the time to aim like that at fightin' distances, you may never get the shot off. I think feel and handling ("ergonomics") are much more important.

Now, for a target pistol, group size becomes more important, feel and handling slightly less so. Including Ransom data here could serve more of a purpose, "inherent" accuracy may be more important to the prospective buyer.

IMHO, these numbers influence new and intermediate buyers much more than they should.

[wichaka]

IMHO, I think we put too much emphasis on group size, anyway.

Amen brother......

If you're going to use it for bullseye shooting, then yes.....all means put it in a rest and test away.

But for combat situations, where pin point accuracy is not required, and in most cases not obtainable.......

2-4+" groups are more than adequate for combat, and thats shooting rapid fire, not slow aiming shots.

Look at the e-zine articles I posted. All the shots are done at combat shooting distances, and speed.

If the gun will hold groups like that when testing under those conditions, then it's more than capable of doing what it needs out on the street.....or in your house. Provided you do your part.

[GR8GIFT]

How many of you guys/gals own a gun that was sold with a test pattern of 2" or less?
Of you shooters, how many have you ever been able to duplicate it with over the counter ammo?
I do understand they use support devices but I am just trying to gage my work on a new gun. I am able to keep a tennisball sized group off a sandbag at 20 yards, ammo is Walmart Blazer Brass 230gr round nose.........

My Rock River National Match Hardball has a 50 yard test target under 2 inches with hardball ammo. I can't quite match it at 25 yards. But I know it's my shooting not the pistol that screws up the groups. Here's my poor try 10 rounds and 25 yards.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/420302.jpg (http://www.hunt101.com/?p=420302&c=500&z=1)

[Frank]

There is certainly a difference between the mechanical accuracy of a particular gun, with the human element removed, and the practical accuracy of the gun-shooter system.

I think it is interesting to know the mechanical accuracy of a particular gun. It provides some hint as to the care and precision with which everything fits and cycles. It also, gives you a good clue as the best you can expect when you do your part.

Part of evaluating a gun is appropriately some assessment of its mechanical accuracy. Another part is an assessment of the operating characteristics, i. e., those attributes that will help the shooter use the gun accurately and effectively, like the trigger action.

But the real test, and what counts IRL, is how well you shoot the gun. You will probably, at least most of the time, shoot a gun better the more mechanically accurate it is AND the better its sights and trigger are.

DVC

[nick50471]

Well written Frank

[Maj Tom]

I have several that will hold sub 2 inch ten shot groups (fifty yards Ransom Rest test target included with pistol). I never shoot factory ammo so I cannot comment on that. But I have been able to work up loads that exceed the accuracy of the test targets. Can I shoot sub two inch 10 shot groups at fifty yards? Not yet, but I'm working on it. Can I shoot 2 five shot strings rapid fire at 25 yards and hold under two inches. Yes, most of the time (working on that inch or less (like that high X count). Is this required for combat style shooting? Not really, for the most part anyway. Just my penny and a half.....

[Canuck-IL]

Interesting comments on the same topic on the other forum...read the 10th post down by Paul Liebenberg
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=156442
/Bryan