Contract Magazine Question

[jacobtowne]

In Clawson's "Collector's Guide," page 85, there are two entries for each of the WWII contractors Scovill, Little, and Risdon. The first entry shows L, and then Little Mfg. The second shows L, and L-C , then "Little subcontract for Colt."
Does this mean that a magazine with only the L stamped on the top of the toe can be either Remington Rand or Colt, and that there is no way to tell the difference?
JT

[Scott Gahimer]

Contract mags marked L,R or S on the top of the toe were the mags shipped new with Remington Rand, Ithaca and US&S pistols.
Same mags with the C-L, C-R or C-S on the bottom were shipped new with Colt pistols after November 1942 through the end of the war. Colt received these mags partially completed, and finished them prior to shipping. Colt also made and shipped full blued, pinned base (unmarked) mags that were shipped with pistols 1940-1942. Additionally, Colt transferred some commercial mags to military sales in 1942-43, and these were used intermittently in shipments until they were depleted (probably sometime mid-to-late 1943).
G marked mags were made by General Shaver, part of Remington Rand. All these mags were produced and shipped under a contract for field replacement magazines.

[jacobtowne]

Thanks for the info. Scott. What I'm confused about is that Clawson is apparently saying that magazines with both types of stamps - single letter on the top of the lip and C-(letter) on the bottom - are correct for Colts. At least that's the way I read his listing and identification of WWII subcontractors.
JT

[Scott Gahimer]

JT: I think it's on the bottom of P. 85 in Clawson's Guide where he specifically shows the mag manufacturers for WWII.
He shows:
Colt unmarked

Little marked L on top of toe
Little subcontract for Colt marked L, and C-L on bottom of base

Risdon marked R on top of toe
Risdon subcontract for Colt marked R, and C-R on bottom of base

Scovill marked S on top of toe
Scovill subcontract for Colt marked S, and C-S on bottom of base

General Shaver marked G on top of toe (field replacement mags)

[RayP.]

Scott,is there any way to tell the diff. between Colt/Rem.UMC mags besides the shorter toe on the Rem.UMC mags?

RayP.

[Scott Gahimer]

Ray: Certainly the primary way to tell the difference is in the length of the baseplate, as you mention.
There were a variety of mags used during WWI. Colt and Remington-UMC provided the mags for their pistols. Additionally, there were several companies who were contracted to produce extra magazines. Remington-UMC was one of these companies, and records indicate they produced over 1.6 million such mags.
Raymond Engineering also was contracted for spare mags, and Clawson notes their mags have the same dimensions as Rem-UMC, but are also marked with the R on the bottom of the baseplate.
I've seen many two-tone mags that resemble Rem-UMC mags' toe shape and size. But, I also believe many mags have had their toes ground off since then, either to repair damage, and/or to specifically replicate a Rem-UMC mag.
I can't say offhand whether there is any other distinguishable difference, such as in the followers or springs. There tends to be some variation in polish levels, fit and finish among all the mag producers, so it would be difficult at best to say for sure one way or the other.
I'd just suggest looking closely at the toe of a mag you suspect to be Rem-UMC. Look for signs of alteration. I do not recall any substantial difference in appearance otherwise, but can't say I've really studied all the WWI mags extensively either. In fact, I've only seen one genuine Raymond Engineering mag that I know of. I've seen a few fakes.
There were about 1.7 million Rem-UMC mags produced in all. They've just been absorbed into the system over the years, and may be in any gun by now.

[RayP.]

I have some unmarked mags,some for over 50yrs. or so(gifts from Uncle Sam) and some bought from Army Surplus Stores back in the days when they were 50 cents apiece so I'm pretty sure they are original,up to a few yrs. ago I never paid any attention to them contractor wise,I'm an accumulator/shooter not a collector,it looks to me like unmarked Colt/UMC and R(Raymond) bottom stamped mags are a case of fakery being begged to be applied. While on the Subject of mags,I have several American Pins that that have diff. font type "A"s on them,3 diff. style "A"s that I can make out,don't think it means anything,workers just used what ever "A" stamp was given to them I guess, unless it was for the purpose of ID for a certain contract run so they would know which batch to reject if problems arose with them. Anyone Know how many mags ea. contractor made?

RayP.

[Scott Gahimer]

Clawson's big book P. 194 reports these totals of SURPLUS mags in inventory as of 12/26/1918:

M.S. Little 207,000
Risdon 707,000
American Pin Co. 577,000
Barnes & Kobert 730,000

Clawson also states the above manufacturers produced a combined total of 4,605,884 magazines.

Then, he also states that the following companies also received contracts to produce extra mags:

Rem-UMC contracted for 9,686,500 produced 1,658,812
Raymond Engineering contracted for 1,000,000 produced 4,120
Ferro Stamping & Mfg. Co. contracted for 1,000,000 produced 0
Intl. Silver Co. contracted for 1,000,000 produced 0
Nation Blank Book Co. contracted to build 25-rd. extension mags (probably experimental) contracted for 3 produced 3 (Cost was not to exceed $250.00)

Further up, Clawson speaks of the extra mags Colt's produced (824,228) at $.50 each under one contract. Then he states they also received another contract that was subsequently increased to 9,531,244 mags. This was when all the contractors were included in the "community plan" to fill the contract requirements.

Now, maybe we can undertand why we still see so many two-tone mags around. :eek:

[RayP.]

Scott,

You stated that you've only seen one original Raymond mag,was it in a collection,up for sale or what? Seems like such a small production would make it worth almost as much as a pistol.If I ever come across one you would be the first person I would contact,I would have to get rid of it to a collector who would appriciate it because there is no way I want to get hooked on starting a collection like some of you guy's have(us Hoosiers have to stick together anyway).

RayP.

[Scott Gahimer]

Ray: Yes, the mag is in Chuck Clawson's magazine collection. The fakes have all been readily identifiable because the characterisitics of the mags are different to begin with, and then the "R" stamp isn't the proper size or style.
I'm sure I'd be proud to own anything you'd offer me... and I agree we Hoosiers have to stick together! ;)
Best wishes to all for a happy New Year.
Scott

[Doran]

There are several different styles of A stamps. Many are only a partial letter. I think that the A may have been stamped by hand or after assy because the partials look to have been struck at an angle. All A stamps I've seen have been stamped in the same direction.

I have examples of B stamps stamped in both directions and from just personal observation this is the only magazine I've found where this is common.

R and L seem to be stamped in the same direction. However, I've seen pictures of examples stamped in the opposite direction but they must be rare.

Baseplate lengths are hard to call. I think the two tone baseplates were probably mill sawn and then profiled. The cutter dia, deburring, setup, mfg tolerance, etc can have an effect. A short B and a long R for instance might possibly have .030 difference.

I've personally seen two faked Raymond magazines but never an original except in pictures. I own one and a friend owns the other. They were both at the same show but came from different dealers. Luckily we aren't into them for much.

[jacobtowne]

Scott:
I'm still confused, but that's the way with novices.
ON page 85, Clawson lists the stamps for Little subcontract mags. for Colt as
"L C-L."
Does he mean L AND C-L, or does he mean L OR C-L?
IN other words, does the lip have one stamp or the other, or both?
JT

[Scott Gahimer]

JT: The L, R or S is stamped on TOP of the toe of the baseplate. The C-L, C-R or C-S, when present, is stamped on the BOTTOM of the baseplate.
Only the mags with BOTH stamps are Colt mags. The ones with only the L,R or S on top of the toe are mags for Remington Rand, Ithaca and US&S.
There aren't any silly questions. That's how we learn. Many are too vain to ask, and in return, learn little or nothing. Thanks for pointing out where the confusion was. I'll try to remember to be more specific in my answer about the markings in the future.

[jacobtowne]

Scott:
Thank you again. The fog has finally cleared, and I hasten to add that it was not your reply that caused my confusion, but rather Clawson's listing which (in my opinion) could be read two ways.
JT

[Scott Gahimer]

JT: Glad you're onboard with the correct info now. I can see how the chart in Clawson's book could be confusing if one was not somewhat familiar with the magazines to begin with. To have included photos of the markings in the book would have been the ideal situation.
If you'll notice, up at the very top of his chart, Clawson does show two separate headings for the markings; one for the markings that will be on top of the toe; and one for the markings on the bottom of the base. It's clear to me what his intent was...but I can now see how confusing that could be for someone not familiar with the mags.
I think Ty Moore still has some photos of the actual markings on his website at www.coolgunsite.com that I provided some time back. If he has replaced the photos by now, I'm confident he'll have other better photos in their place.
Scott