Series 80 Safety (Again)

[Phil]

I recently bought an older Series 80 Officer's Model in excellent condition to use as a carry gun, but until this weekend hadn't had a chance to take it to the range.

I field stripped and lubed it; took along several magazines and loaded them with Remington 230gr FMJ's to start off with.

Chambered a round, squeezed the trigger and got a "click". Checked to see that a round was chambered, recocked the hammer and tried again - another click. I tried the next round - another click. I unloaded the weapon, examined both rounds and saw no firing pin marks at all.

As the range master came over, I was removing the slide. The plunger lever didn't move at all when the trigger was squeezed. He just shook his head and walked away.

I haven't had time to examine the gun further, but whatever the reason for the FTF, I've decided not to bother fixing it. I'm going to remove the firing pin safety levers and install the spacer.

I know that the Series 80 system is reliable and I also know that this is the exact reason that you take any gun to the range before depending upon it, but I can't express in words the sinking feeling I had when I heard that click.

My brother-in-law was in the next lane, firing our deceased father-in-law's 1911A1 parts gun - Ithaca slide on an AR Sales Co. frame - at least 40 years old with virtually no maintenance and not fired at all in the last 20 years. It went bang every single time.

I've owned Series 80 Colts since 1986 and have never had this happen. But whatever the reason, on a carry weapon I need the gun to go "bang", not "click" when I decide that I need to pull the trigger.

[1911Tuner]

Gunny's Law:

The more gadgets it's got, the more "Murphy" it gets.

[pa_guns]

Hi

If you pull the parts - hang on to them. At some point you or a future owner may decide to put the pistol back to it's original configuration.

Bob

[Phil]

Hi

If you pull the parts - hang on to them. At some point you or a future owner may decide to put the pistol back to it's original configuration.

BobYeah, will do Bob. I almost forgot about that :D

[Bud White]

Sounds like the plunger lever was put in wrong.. I wouldn't know about this at all :)

[OD*]

I'd be very interested Phil, in knowing what the problem is when you find out.

[wichaka]

Haven't heard of them failing too often, but failing at all is too often.

Let us know what the problem is.

[John]

Dump those parts and use a spacer. Actually, you can leave only the lower lever in, just remove the upper lever and all the stupid things from the slide and you'll be good to go.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Here's another thing to at least think about. I have no idea how I would make this decision my self so I only mention it.

Suppose you wind up in court one day. Something has happened and your pistol was involved. You gotta believe the "other guy's" lawyer is going to bring up the modifications to the safety system on your carry weapon.

Again, i don't know even what my answer to this would be. Some very smart people go with the "I'll carry only an out of the box Glock" approach. Other equally smart people carry what they know and trust the most. I can't intelligently argue with either one. It's certainly a debate that has sparked a *lot* of threads.

Bob

[John]

Well, definitely an interesting question, but I have two remarks.

1. The S80 firing pin safety is a safety, only in the sense that it does not allow the pistol to be fired, without the trigger being pulled. If the intend to shoot the other guy was there, the existence or not of that mechanism is irrelevant, and any good lawyer should be able to fight the opposition arguments.

2. If the intend to fire was not there, then the existence or not of the S80 mechanism is not going to help you or condemn you.

The only case that a lawyer can find you liable of something, is if your pistol, in which the S80 parts were removed, is dropped, it discharged and killed an innocent by-stander. If you read how difficult can this happen, I am sure you will agree that if someone wants to remove these parts, there shouldn't be any reason why not to.

On the other hand, I'll be the first one to say, that these poor parts have been accused for anything from not allowing the pistol to fire, up to giving the 1911 a horrendous trigger pull. Neither of these is true, so if your pistol works OK, there is no real reason to remove those parts.

As they say, to each his own.

[Phil]

The only case that a lawyer can find you liable of something, is if your pistol, in which the S80 parts were removed, is dropped, it discharged and killed an innocent by-stander. If you read how difficult can this happen, I am sure you will agree that if someone wants to remove these parts, there shouldn't be any reason why not to.

On the other hand, I'll be the first one to say, that these poor parts have been accused for anything from not allowing the pistol to fire, up to giving the 1911 a horrendous trigger pull. Neither of these is true, so if your pistol works OK, there is no real reason to remove those parts.

As they say, to each his own.I certainly agree on the lawyer part. I would far rather be alive on the witness stand having to answer that question, than the alternative.

Another way of looking at it is, "Would you not carry a Series 70 gun due to its lack of the extra safety?" If you were carrying a Series 70 gun and got fumble fingered, causing injury or death to a bystander, would you be afraid that some lawyer would ask why you weren't carrying a Series 80 gun? Or a Glock, etc., or why you were carrying any gun at all in the first place? It can go on and on if you're going to worry about all possible scenarios.

I do, however, disagree with the last part of your statement John: "these poor parts have been accused for anything from not allowing the pistol to fire, up to giving the 1911 a horrendous trigger pull. Neither of these is true"

Actually, since the firing pin on my gun is installed and functional and was not striking the primer at all, and I know that the plunger lever is not functioning, that is the cause of the gun failing to fire. While I realize that several other things can also cause an FTF, in this case the only apparent cause is the firing pin being blocked. I'll know more once I have a chance to tear it down.

I know that parts can break in any gun, sometimes at the worst possible moment. But as Johnny just said earlier in this thread, Gunny's Law:

The more gadgets it's got, the more "Murphy" it gets.Again, that "click" was the first time anything like that has ever happened to me and it was a really bad feeling that I can't forget. I've decided to eliminate that "Murphy" from the three Series 80 guns that I use for carry.

[wichaka]

THE reason I don't carry a 1911 with any firing pin safety as a duty gun........

[John]

Oh I understood that the gun went click instead of bang. But this is just a part. If it is broken or bend or whatever, you can change it. It's up to the owner to make sure his pistol is 100% reliable before trusting his life to the gun, and the plunger lever is nothing more than a gun part that you should check and make sure it works OK. Just like any other functional check we do.

As I said, it is up to the user to decide if he removes these parts or not, but in my Colt, the existence or not of these parts doesn't affect firing and it certainly has a negligible effect on the trigger pull, so negligible that I can't tell the difference actually.

[RickB]

I suspect the lever that hangs on the sear pin is either missing, or installed backwards. I woun't necessarily condemn S80 just because someone else didn't reassemble it properly.
A buddy of mine had his oil changed at a garage that forgot to tighten the drain plug, which resulted in a destroyed engine. My friend didn't therefore swear off cars, or start riding a bike, just because another guy screwed up a perfectly-good and proven system. The system depends on someone paying attention, though.

[Phil]

I suspect the lever that hangs on the sear pin is either missing, or installed backwards. I woun't necessarily condemn S80 just because someone else didn't reassemble it properly.But this is just a part. If it is broken or bend or whatever, you can change it. It's up to the owner to make sure his pistol is 100% reliable before trusting his life to the gun, and the plunger lever is nothing more than a gun part that you should check and make sure it works OK. Just like any other functional check we do.I totally agree with all of the above and this is exactly why I hadn't yet carried the gun even though I've owned it for a few months.

I haven't had time to investigate it yet due to a couple of other "brush fires" in progress, but perhaps by the time I get into the gun I'll have gotten over the whole thing sufficiently to just fix it, rather than eliminate it. But it is true that JMB didn't design it this way and it's one more thing that can go wrong.

[SteveS]

There is a good chance that the the plunger lever was assembled with the sear pin missing the hole. I've seen this happen and you can't blame the gun or safety design for operator reassembly error. Before you pull the sear pin out try to ascertain that the pin is holding the lever....

[Phil]

There is a good chance that the the plunger lever was assembled with the sear pin missing the hole. I've seen this happen and you can't blame the gun or safety design for operator reassembly error. Before you pull the sear pin out try to ascertain that the pin is holding the lever....Thanks.......... will do.

[pa_guns]

Hi

I'm not a big fan of the Series 80 setup, but I do own a 1911 with that setup. It seems to work fine, including the trigger. I also own several SW1911's with a similar setup they also seem to work just fine.

The basic 1911 is a good design. Unless you routinely drop your pistol the firing pin block stuff isn't going to help you much. I don't think that's an issue with normal people in the real world.

My only problem with removing it is it creates the "impression" that you have an unsafe pistol. I've spent enough time around lawyers to know what they can do with something like that. When reality meets spin - spin wins ...

Bob

[1911Tuner]

My only problem with removing it is it creates the "impression" that you have an unsafe pistol. I've spent enough time around lawyers to know what they can do with something like that. When reality meets spin - spin wins ...

Agreed.

If you do opt for parts removal, be sure to replace the firing pin spring with one of standard length and rate. The OEM springs in Series 80s are short and weak.

[Phil]

Agreed.

If you do opt for parts removal, be sure to replace the firing pin spring with one of standard length and rate. The OEM springs in Series 80s are short and weak.Thanks for the tip Johnny. I'll be sure to do that.

[Phil]

There is a good chance that the the plunger lever was assembled with the sear pin missing the hole. I've seen this happen and you can't blame the gun or safety design for operator reassembly error. Before you pull the sear pin out try to ascertain that the pin is holding the lever....I finally had the time to detail strip the OM today and found exactly what you mentioned. The gun had been improperly assembled with the lower plunger lever off the sear pin and just floating around inside. Other than missing or broken, that was about the only possibility, I suppose. It's back together correctly and working now, although I still won't carry it until I get it to the range and verify operation, of course.

This was an internet purchase and I hadn't had time to tear it down just to check everything - my fault. But I had taken it to a highly regarded local (2-hour drive) pistolsmith for a FLGR installation along with Trijicons.

Although I never specifically asked him to check out the whole pistol, I did ask if he had test fired it after the FLGR install and he said no. That kinda surprised me - guess I'm old school.

Anyway, it's not the fault of the Series 80 safety, obviously, but I'm still considering "converting it to Series 70 type" (sounds better than removing the safety). I have a spacer on order from Brownell's. We'll see.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Glad you found the problem. There are a couple of other more difficult to fix problems that could have come up.

Now at least you have a choice about what to do ...

Bob

[Bud White]

see post 5 phil i knew thats what it was

[Phil]

Sounds like the plunger lever was put in wrong.. I wouldn't know about this at all :)You got it, Bud. (Now how DID you know?) :D

From now on, I'll take the time to detail strip every gun that I buy before taking it to the range. It will save time and aggravation.

[Bud White]

first time i did a 80 i um put it back together wrong ..lol

[pa_guns]

Hi

Ummm, putting it back together wrong is errrr pretty common .... :butthead: :butthead: :butthead:

A series 80 is one of those things that when ever you do a detail strip a wood pencil test is in order. If the wood pencil doesn't' go into the ceiling then check the assembly.

Bob

[Phil]

Hi

Ummm, putting it back together wrong is errrr pretty common .... :butthead: :butthead: :butthead:

A series 80 is one of those things that when ever you do a detail strip a wood pencil test is in order. If the wood pencil doesn't' go into the ceiling then check the assembly.

BobI'll have to see if it will eject a wood pencil....... Thanks Bob.

[Phil]

Yep, works like a champ. Now my wife will want to know what those marks are on the ceiling :D :D

[SteveS]

glad it's all sorted out

Steve

[OD*]

Good deal, Phil.

[Phil]

Yep - a real exciting Saturday night. Dragged out all the 1911's in the safe and shot pencils into the ceiling. Whooahhhh.... :D :D

[daveohno]

I like the pencil idea. Plenty to learn here.

[jeff1124]

I like the pencil idea. Plenty to learn here.

Yep, it sounds like every time a detail strip is done the test would almost be required, especially on a carry gun! Good to know since I have 4 of these Colts!
I've stripped them all down but have so far been lucky on the reassembly. See, even old dogs can learn new tricks. ;) :D

[pa_guns]

Hi

Now when running the pencil test be sure to wear eye protection and do it only when you are sure of your backstop. :D :D :D

Bob

[jeff1124]

Hi

Now when running the pencil test be sure to wear eye protection and do it only when you are sure of your backstop. :D :D :D

Bob

you mean I shouldn't shoot the pencil at the dog or the in-laws?? :p

[Hawkmoon]

you mean I shouldn't shoot the pencil at the dog or the in-laws?? :p
Certainly not at the dog. The in-laws is your call.

It might help preserve the sheetrock to buy a couple of those slip-on erasers and put one over the "business end" of the pencil before launching it.

[Joni Lynn]

Never never at the dog..........in laws are ok and considered fair game by many.

[Bud White]

i learned the pencil test after my first mess up on it .. in laws are fair game right on ...
GAME ON

[daveohno]

If I had a backbone, I'd launch a couple of pencils at "that woman I live with", but alas, a coward resides in me. A frying pan hurts too much. :eek:

[larry starling]

If I had a backbone, I'd launch a couple of pencils at "that woman I live with", but alas, a coward resides in me. A frying pan hurts too much. :eek:
I wouldn't call you a coward, I would call you smart! Remember that if things go ugly she will hit you where it hurts in court and take your Colt's! :D

[pa_guns]

Hi

Dog's - definitely not.

Are the inlaws armed? :D

Actually you can make a pretty good pencil backstop out of an appliance box. Fill it up with packing peanuts and you are good to go for quite a while.

Bob

[Phil]

Whoever came up with the Series 80 firing pin safety at Colt probably never dreamed that it would become a sport all it's own.

Airsoft is for woosies. Shoot pencils instead :D :D

[daveohno]

I wouldn't call you a coward, I would call you smart! Remember that if things go ugly she will hit you where it hurts in court and take your Colt's! :D
Nah, she would let me keep the Colt's. I'd be hard pressed to find even two nickles to rub together from then on, though. All while residing in my minivan with contusions on my coconut.

[jeff1124]

You all are right, I could never shoot the pencil at the dogs!! The in-laws shall remain in consideration and the ex in-laws all already have contracts out on them but never are within pencil range!! ;)