1911PD Problems

[53vortec]

Last year while home on R&R I purchased a NIB S&W 1911PD, 4 1/4". After I bought it I put about 150 rounds through it, and experienced some feeding problems with Winchester White Box 230gr FMJ. It wouldn't fully return to battery while firing, stopping about 1/4" short. I attributed the problem to it being new and didn't pay it much mind.

Fast forward to this year, when I got home I took the pistol to qualify with for my Texas CHL. Sure enough, more of the same malfunctions with WWB FMJ and a Wilson Combat magazine. I called S&W and they suggested I try it with different types of ammo, so I raided the ammo locker and went to the range - here's the results.

Hungarian MFS 230gr FMJ: 50 rounds, factory and WC magazines, zero malfunctions.

Federal 230gr Hydra-Shok: 50 rounds, two malfunctions (1 each factory and WC magazines). With these malfunctions the round jammed almost straight up, with the nose of the bullet stuck in the rear of the chamber and the base of the casing stuck in the front of the magazine. Also experienced one premature slide stop engagement. I thought the slide lock may have been my fault, and ensured my thumbs were tucked DOWN for the rest of the session.

Hornady TAP 200gr +P: 20 rounds, factory and WC magazines, zero malfunctions.

Winchester Ranger T 230gr +P: 50 rounds, two misfeeds of the same type I experienced with the Federal ammo, and two more premature engagements of the slide lock.

Any ideas on what's wrong with my gun? I was rather disappointed with it's performance, especially considering the reputation the S&W 1911s have and the great performance I've had with other S&W products. I didn't have time to ship it back to the factory before I left, so I guess I'll have to deal with it next year.

[John]

Is your pistol standard? I mean you haven't changed any recoil springs or anything? Do you use a shock buff in it? How clean is it? Have you clean the external extractor area well? Are you sure the extractor can move when the rim of the cartridge tries to go under it? Finally how old are those WC magazines?

Most probably a magazine issue, even though the pistol is still relatively new and it may need some more breaking in.

The slide stop locking the slide prematurely is not a big issue. Take the slide of the pistol and reinsert the slide stop in its normal position. Push the slide stop down, as far as it will go and slowly insert a loaded magazine in the mag well with the ammo that caused the slide to lock back. You most probably will notice that the tip of the rounds get very close to an area on the inside of the slide stop. Now mark that area in your head. Remove the loaded magazine and insert an empty one. Look at the area which touches the mag follower. Mark that in your head as well. The trick is to file away a little at the area which touches the tip of the rounds, without making the slide stop incapable of catching the follower. Got that? So file carefully and a little at a time, until the rounds do not touch the slide stop, but it still gets activated by the follower.

[53vortec]

John,

thank you for your reply and detailed instructions on the slide stop fitting. If I don't ship the pistol back to S&W I will definately do that.

Regarding your questions:
1)The pistol is stock, as shipped from the factory. I purchased it NIB and made no modifications, simply cleaned it and shot it.

2)I don't use a shock buff.

3)The weapon was cleaned prior to inital firing (~150 rounds) and prior to the qualification.

4)I did clean the extractor area and breechface.

5)I didn't test it with a cartridge rim, but did ensure that the extractor moved properly after cleaning.

6)The two Wilson Combat magazines (model #47DCB) were new, as were the two factory magazines. I'm unsure of the factory magazine manufacture, they're simply marked "S&W" and are of a polished blue finish with polymer base pads.

The pistol now has over 350 rounds through it with no sign of improvement. I showed it to a gunsmith friend of mine and another 1911 head, and both noted how the ramp looked as though it needed to be smoothed out. As compared to a Springfield or Colt the distance from the back of the barrel to the top "edge" of the ramp does seem excessive.

[John]

That distance should be about 1/32". And polishing the ramp won't help in a failure to return to battery. The ramp's role is finished as soon as the tip of the round starts going in the chamber. If it doesn't go all the way in, it's a different matter.

A couple more things:

- a picture of the ramps area, with the slide locked back would help.
- have you noticed if the jams occur with the first round in the magazine? The last two? Any round in the magazine?

I would refrain from giving you any more instructions and I would say return it to S&W, since this seems to not be magazine-related, or ammo-related. A pistol which does not fire Winchester White Box ammo is definitely problematic. Yours seems to be a three point jam, but I am not that experienced with this thing to give you guidelines on how to solve it. What I'll do, is move this thread to the Gunsmithing section, hoping that 1911Tuner jumps in, he is much more experienced than I am and he will help you.

[1911Tuner]

First...As Socrates said: "It's time to take off our shoes, sit down, and define our terms."

Failure to feed and failure to return to battery are two different malfunctions.
They are sometimes related, but they're not the same. They're also generally caused by different problems...even though the problems that cause both can overlap.

Failure to feed means that the round doesn't get into the chamber. If it gets into the chamber...even just barely...it becomes a failure to go to or return to battery. Describe the stoppage in as much detail as you can remember.
Last round only...Top round only...Top round during a reload from slidelock...
or intermittently at any point in the magazine. Fully 95% of all true failures to feed are caused by the magazine, and 95% of those are the fault of either the spring or the follower. The magazine can be a player in failure to go to battery, but is rarely the sole cause.

The gap that you mentioned is okay. 1/32nd inch is spec. It can be more, but not less.

Standin' by...

[John]

Johnny, I am puzzled with this. The gun is new, the magazines are new and it seems to jam with either the WC or the factory mags, the ammo is factory, so I think it is something more involved than just a mag spring. And he didn't say if the gap os 1/32", it was me who said that.

[1911Tuner]

Johnny, I am puzzled with this. The gun is new, the magazines are new and it seems to jam with either the WC or the factory mags, the ammo is factory, so I think it is something more involved than just a mag spring. And he didn't say if the gap os 1/32", it was me who said that.


Yep. He mentioned that the gap was larger than most that he'd seen.

Just because a magazine is new, is no guarantee that it's good. I've seen about an equal number of problems come from new magazines as with used ones. It's also well-known that I'm not a great fan of any 8-round magazine, especially the....uh...never mind. Don't wanna upset mah brotha Wichaka. :D

Anyway...We haven't determined yet whether it's a failure to feed or a failure to go to/return to battery.

[John]

I guess you are right, we have heard cases before where WC mags were not so up to the task in specific pistols. But even the mags that came with the gun did the same thing.

Don't worry about Wichaka, he is busy testing new pistols for our reviews.

[53vortec]

1911Tuner,

here's a more detailed description of what I've experienced with this pistol:

WWB 230gr FMJ - Classic failure to return to battery. The pistol is fired, the spent casing ejected properley, a fresh round fed from the magazine and on it's way into the chamber when the slide "stops" it's forward movement about 1/8" to 1/4" short of being fully in battery. This was experienced with both factory magazines and one new Wilson Combat #47DCB (the other Wilson Combat was not used with this ammo). There was zero consistencey as to which round in the string would malfunction - it was usually one "out of the middle." Sorry I cannot recall if any of these malfunctions ever occured on the first or last round, but I don't believe they did and definately took note that most malfunctions were from niether the first or last round.

Federal Hydra-Shok 230gr and Winchester Ranger T 230gr +P - I'm not sure what to call this one, though I referred to it earlier as a "misfeed." The pistol is fired, the spent casing ejected properley, then the next round ends up with the round pointing almost straight up. If viewing the pistol from the right side the cartridge would appear to be pointing at "1 o'clock" with the bullet pressed against the top/rear of the inside of the chamber (as if you were trying to press the bullet through the barrel hoodn from the mag well) and the rim/bottom of the casing ended up stuck alog the front of the magazine. The only other way I can think to describe this would be if you were to insert an empty or half-full magazine into the pistol, lock the slide back, press a loaded cartridge (primer first) through the ejection port and down into the magazine vertically, and hold it there with a punch then release the slide forward - once the space between the barrel hood and breech face is too small to allow the bullet to slip out release the bullet, allowing it to travel straight up until it hits the top of the (inside of) the chamber. That's what happened, with all four mags (two factory and two Wilson Combat) between the two types of ammunition. Again, these malfunction occured variably through the "middle" of the magazine. It was with these two loads that I also experienced the premature slide locks.

Hope this clears things up (or at least doesn't muddy the waters further).

[1911Tuner]

misfeed." The pistol is fired, the spent casing ejected properley, then the next round ends up with the round pointing almost straight up.

In law enforcement circles, this is whatcha call a clew!

This sounds like a classic bolt-over base misfeed in which the slide catches the round in the extractor groove instead of at the back of the rim. Butt goes down, nose goes up. This one is a magazine problem...specifically the spring. The fact that it seems to occur mostly with hotter, service ammo further clarifies it.

What is happening is that the slide is simply outrunning the magazine, and partially rides over the upcoming round before it gets into feeding position. There's another possibility, also spring related. The inertia of the round causes it to move forward far enough to actually get loose from the magazine in mid-stroke. This usually results in a push-feed in which the round is either ejected from the magazine or the round is knocked into the chamber with the extractor rammed against the rim, stopping the slide out of battery. Less likely to occur with external extractors, but still possible.
Most will snap over the rim and never give an indication of the malfunction until the extractor hook breaks off.

The failure to go to battery may also be related to the magazine spring, but more likely due to excessive stem bind...or aka 3-Point Jam...but also could be caused...completely or in part...by the extractor. Since the round stops only
1/8th to 1/4th inch short of battery, I'll call extractor.

A quick test will get us closer. Induce the stoppage, and use a foot-long length of wood to lightly tap the muzzle straight back. If the slide snaps to battery, it's a stem bind. If it moves sluggishly to battery or doesn't go all the way...it's probably either the extractor...a rough or riased portion of the breechface...or the distance between the breechface guide blocks is too narrow.

Do the tests and report back. Most of these kinds of malfunctions are somethin' simple.

[John]

Johnny, just to draw your attention. This one has an external extractor (I think), a S&W one. May be this ridge we see in other S&W slides is also present on this one and causes a problem?

[1911Tuner]

Yep...and you read my mind. :)