Wilson Magazines: What to Do With Them?

[Lazarus]

For many years I thought I had invested in the best equipment, which would cut down on the chances of a jammed gun... One of my mistakes was using Wilson 47D's. Since I was already using the "best" magazine, then the jams must be happening for other reasons. That was before the "big thaw".

I proved to myself once again today that last round failure to feed, or generally last round jam only happens when using the Wilsons. Doesn't happen with the Metalform stainless mags with dimpled follower and hefty spring. I was "smoke testing" my custom Caspian 1911 after installing the square f.p. stop, 16 pound recoil spring and 23 pound mainspring.

My shots grouped about 4" lower than before the changes. I guess that makes sense if the slide is moving slower while the bullet exits the gun. In any case, I have a number of Metalform mags that work great. I recently ordered some ACT mags from Wolff, but I noticed they do NOT have a dimpled follower. Since the ACT mags spec out very similar to the Metalforms, I just installed a standard mag spring and dimpled follower in them. They work fine, no feeding problems. At this point the ACT mags have a finer overall finish and the factory may be able to hold their Q.C. at higher levels than Metalform. But, they will be more expensive if you have to pay for the dimpled follower and the matching Wolff spring.

That brings me to the Wilsons. What do I do with my 47D's? Does the magazine tube accept a standard spring and dimpled follower, or should I just hold a garage sale and make some other shooter happy? :p

-Lazarus

[1911Tuner]

Don't tell Wichaka. He won't be able to sleep nights... :D

The 47D magazine will accept a standard spring and follower. The Wilson-Rogers follower won't work with the standard spring, though...so it's all or none.

If your shots are hitting lower after the change, then the first recoil impulse must have dropped, because by the time the slide has move an eighth of an inch, the bullet is gone. Interesting. I may have to rethink the effects of the small radiused stop, since I was convinced that it was mainly in the tertiary effect...slide hitting the frame...and in the secondary due to allowing the use of a lighter recoil spring. Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry interesting...

Were you using a heavier recoil spring before the change?

[Lazarus]

Yes, I was following accepted practice amongst the "blind". 18.5 pound recoil spring, 18 pound mainspring, Wilson 47D mags, mirror finish on the frame feed ramp. The whole (WRONG) 9 yards. Let this be a lesson to you other folks...this plan will fail in the long run!

My analysis of the lower groups comes from the fact that the gun might rise more slowly if the slide is moving more slowly...all while the bullet is leaving the barrel. I can't defend that idea with physics, but the gun did shoot to P.O.A. @ 25 yards before the modifications. Heck I hate to call them modifications now that I know they were the original intent of the designer!

-Lazarus

[1911Tuner]

can't defend that idea with physics, but the gun did shoot to P.O.A. @ 25 yards before the modifications. Heck I hate to call them modifications now that I know they were the original intent of the designer!

Well...ya don't hafta use physics to defend it. The gun is doin' that pretty well on its own. Looks like I'm gonna hafta morph back down to a millimeter tall and see if I can
find out why. Right now, the only thing that comes to mind is the momentum gained by the slide in the first bit of travel is yankin' on the gun more than I suspected.
And just when I thought I'd finally cracked John Mo's code...

Ya know...A guy that figgered this thing out for the most part in his head is just a little scary.

[Deacon Aegis]

Now this one has me a bit perplexed as in my reconning, the slide is not moving at all until right after the bullet clears the barrel in that split instant when pressure-drop occurs or at least the movement of the slide is negligable in regards to the effect on the pistol's point of aim. The physics of this issue I would think would not involve slide travel at all unless there is some movement in the primary components while at battery. Please correct me if I am wrong (and I very well may be), but I would not immediately focus on the motion of the slide as being cause to this issue.

Basicly, when the bullet is fired, the instand pounding of the round into the rifling and expansion of the hot gasses slam the barrel forward along the travel of the bullet. The pressure occuring at this point in the round's detonation keeps the barrel locked into battery as the round travels the length of the barrel... or does the pressure against the breach face by the gas expansion cause the action to start its cycle out of lock prior to the bullet exiting the barrel?

If that is the case, then I would be curious if the rounds or lighter-loaded target rounds or if there was a change in the new recoil system that effected the geometry of the the lower lug travel, such as a group-gripper system replaced by a conventional recoil spring stop... In my mind, there are at least a few more variables to ascertain for the equation to be thorough.

Is it possible that with the delay in slide movement, anticipation of the shot is more pronounced and is the culprit? I know for me, that is the most notorious issue I battle with myself.

Just thinking out loud gents as this is an unusual result. My apologies for jumping in where I may be only adding to the confusion.

[wichaka]

Lazarus, if you're wantin' to unload them thar Wilsons.........I'll take 'em off your hands.

[John]

Strange! I would have thought too, that the bullet is out of the barrel before the slide has moved back that much for the fps to hit the hammer. The gun is not rising before the bullet exits, since there is no recoil yet (me thinks). The forces inside the barrel are equal and opposite, so there is nothing to cause the rise.

It's either that, or I am still half asleep, it's only 9:30 here and the twins haven't wake up yet (for once).

Wilson guns malfunctioning? Wichakaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[gbw]

By coincidence I did the same test today with Colt factory mags. The wilson 47s allow the last cartridge to jump free, under inertia I suppose. Not every time, but enough. I even filed some small notches in the Wilson followers - that may have helped a bit, but sure didn't stop it. Started using the Colts and all problems went away. Question now is what to do with 5 W 47D mags?

[garrettwc]

For those of you wondering what to do with your Wilson 47D's I would suggest that you do two things.

1. Check the dimensions along the length of the feed lips to make sure they are still in spec. Wilson uses a thinner tube than some of the other vendors and that can cause the feed lips to spread.

2. If #1 checks out OK, then get some of the Tripp super 7 kits or the Wilson 7rd rebuild kits and rebuild your mags. In either case they will become 7 rounders, but if #1 is OK, then they should become 100% after the change.

[1911Tuner]

Now this one has me a bit perplexed as in my reconning, the slide is not moving at all until right after the bullet clears the barrel

Ahhh, Deacon! You've been readin' Kuhnhausen. The slide moves before the bullet exits. Indeed! If the bullet exits before the slide has moved, the slide won't move...at
least not so you'd notice.

gbw...Your last-round escape trick is pretty common with some magazines. Go to the sticky: "Function of the Dimple" and you can understand what happens.

[gottripletsNC]

Just thinking out loud here, but after changing the the parts you did, you could very have lightened the percieved recoil and natural reaction is to lean into, or push on the gun to control recoil, and you may be just pushing too much now that the percieved recoil is less. Thereby pushing the gun down just a little more than you need to. Of course, if you have been shooting for a long time, your muscle memory may be hard to overcome.
As for the slide moving and changing direction. I think about it like a vehicle hydroplaning. When the tires are on the pavement, there is friction, same as the bullet moving down the barrel. It pulls the barrel, until a point at which the bullet has heated up enough to make its own lube if you will. This is where the car hydroplanes, the friction is gone, the car slides across the water, as a matter of fact, the car will actually speed up as there is no friction to slow it down, this is where the barrel loses its grip if you will on the bullet, at this point, the equal and opposite reaction (recoil) can occur while the bullet is still accelerating out the barrel.
When the bullet leaves the barrel, there is nothing to push the slide back now, the energy has been released, thereby no recoil after that. This is how a compensator is misleadingly thought to be used, by alleviating some of the gases to reduce recoil. It doesn't reduce recoil, it reduces felt recoil by physically pulling the gun forward and trying to negate the rearward push of the gun in recoil.

Ok Johnny, I got the recoil, barrel movement to slide in firing of the weapon, now I gotta go study the sear/disconnector thing a little more.

[1911Tuner]

Ok Johnny, I got the recoil, barrel movement to slide in firing of the weapon, now I gotta go study the sear/disconnector thing a little more


Simple simple simple! When the slide's in battery, the disconnect is up. The paddle is between the trigger stirrup and the sear, so that a pull on the trigger pushes the paddle against the sear and rotates it out of the hooks. When the slide moves back, it pushes the disconnect down and out from between trigger stirrup and sear, and allows the sear to reset and catch the hammer hooks.
The paddle also moves rearward slightly, so that it's positioned under the sear feet. This keeps the disconnect down until the trigger is released, so that it won't reset when the slide uncovers it at full rearward travel. When the trigger is released, the center spring pushes the trigger forward, which allows the disconnect to move forward and up...and the disconnector is again in position to trip the sear.

So...When it's down, it's a disconnector. When it's up, it's a connector.

Ain't this cool?

[gottripletsNC]

DING DING DING!!!
The lights just went on. That one little paragraph told me more than anything I have read on here yet. Thanks a bunch. That was simplest explanation of how something works yet. I read it one sentence at a time and envisioned in my mind each and every part. Then the lights came on...
Thanks Johnny

[gottripletsNC]

This is why a very worn top portion of a disconnector will cause rapid fire. The sear can no longer be 'disconnected' and the the sear is held out of the hammer hooks, and will not prevent the hammer from stopping?

[Lazarus]

Regarding the lower grouping I experienced I admit that this experience does not qualify as science. I am indeed changing the way I shoot the 1911 and my expectations of what is right and what is not.

Along with the recoil spring, mainspring and f.p. stop change, I took a hard look at the engagement of hammer and sear. I didn't like what I saw and ended up replacing a hammer in one of my guns, and re-cutting the sear in all of them to put more metal in contact with the hammer. So the overall effect of these changes includes a heavier trigger than I have used previously. I don't mind 5 to 5-1/2 pounds at all as long as things work smoothly. So, it is entirely possible that with all these tweaks to the guns that it is simply my shooting that must now readjust.

-Lazarus

[1911Tuner]

This is why a very worn top portion of a disconnector will cause rapid fire. The sear can no longer be 'disconnected' and the the sear is held out of the hammer hooks, and will not prevent the hammer from stopping?

Correct...at least in theory. Truth is, that when a 1911 goes burp, it's usually because the hammer jars off as the slide slams to battery. A simple followdown due to failure of the sear to reset usually results in the hammer riding the slide, without enough impact to drive the firing pin...unless the pin is either too long, or the spring is seriously weak...or both.

What usually happens is that the sear resets part-way, with just the tips of the hooks resting on the sear. When the hammer jars off, the sear can't reset fast enough or deep enough to grab the half-cock....and you're off and runnin'. The most common cause that I've noticed is due lack of sufficient clearance between the top of the disconnect paddle and the bottoms of the sear feet.
The feet drag and stop the sear halfway into the reset...the hammer catches on the tips of the hooks...and when the slide goes home...bang.

This isn't to say that a worn disconnect can't cause burst-fire. It can...but it's rare, and usually requires that other issues are present.

[Lazarus]

What Tuner just said is correct. If the hammer follows the slide into battery you won't have ignition of the next round. MG design includes something that delays hammer fall until the next round is in battery. I hope that last statement was vague enough to be acceptable.

-L

[1911Tuner]

MG design includes something that delays hammer fall until the next round is in battery


Correct, if you're talking about a closed-bolt design. Most machineguns submachine guns fire from an open bolt with a fixed firing pin...and they actually slam-fire. Momentum of the bolt works to ram the round far enough into the chamber to prevent blowout...but designs like the old Ingram Mac-10 ruined the brass due to the healthy bulges ahead of the web, making it unsuitable for reloading due to stretching and weakening of the brass.

This is one reason that hack job full-auto conversions are so dangerous. If the timing of the hammer fall is early enough to fire the weapon out of battery...kaboom. Anyone who states factually that you can make an M1 Carbine fire full auto by "filing the sear" is fulla sheep dip. It MAY work once or twice, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[wichaka]

Question now is what to do with 5 W 47D mags?


Send them to me.........I'll take 'em off your hands.