Hammer problem

[rushta]

I am experiencing a hammer dilemma. I installed a EGW stop thursday night. I noticed at the range Friday before I shot my pistol that the hammer is not parallel with the cuts on the slide. I switched to the stock stop for shooting.

The hammer is shifted to the left. I was worried that I had maybe cut the bevel in the stop crooked and bent the hammer pin but I only cycled it by hand. I then noticed that the original stop had marks on the FP stop that show the hammer was already off to the side.

The original stop shows it came that way from kimber, and I guess I never had looked at the hammer that closely. I noticed the marks on the stop before, but didn't really think about why they were that way. If pictures would help, I can maybe get them up tonight. Is this a problem, and if so what can I do to fix it? Any advice would be appreciated.

[Lazarus]

First things first. You have to determine if the hammer pin sits squarely in the frame. Disassembly of the pistol is needed. A quick method would be to put in a known good hammer (i.e. a high quality part: take your pick). And visually check for squareness. Do NOT take the gun out and shoot it with a different hammer!

Once you have disassembled the frame, put the hammer pin and the slide stop in the gun. Using machinists calipers OR a set of dividers, see if the distance from the slide stop pin (forward surface) to the hammer pin (rear surface) is the same on both sides of the gun. You will be measuring from the left inside dimension and the right inside dimension; this is one check for hammer pin squareness.

Another check would be to see if the frame rails are parallel to each other (calipers or divider measuring front outside dia. and rear outside dia at the rails) - AND, then checking to see if the hammer pin is indeed perpendicular to the frame rails.

In other words, take a look at a few basic dimensions and get a feel for what may be happening. It is not unusual to get the odd ball cast frame that shows an offset from the left side to the right side. No fix for that: let Kimber get you a new frame if that's the case. If it is just a crummy hammer, then things are much easier.

-Lazarus

[rushta]

Alright, thanks for the advice. I will have to borrow some calipers and learn how to disassemble my pistol. It appears that the hammer is twisted somewhat, the gaps at the bottom are fairly even but it seems to tweak up towards where it contacts the firing pin. I will hopefully have the status up in the next couple of days. I appreciate the response.

[Spindly61]

I've seen a few of these posts lately. I'm wondering if it is a bad batch of hammers.

[pa_guns]

Hi

I'd let Kimber take care of it under warranty. Swapping to a new hammer gets you into a trigger job. The cost is going to add up if you do it all from scratch. Might as well let them do it all for free.

Bob

[Lazarus]

Yup, letting someone else take care of it might be the right choice. It all depends upon your orientation. It seems that Rushta does not know the gun very well so he may not easily notice what type of problem he has. On the other hand, Rushta might be interested in getting to know more about his new pistol and performing a physical on it would be just the ticket. (Notice that I cautioned NOT to shoot the gun with a different hammer?)

Can't speak for others, but I was mightily irritated 10 years ago when I got my first 1911, a Kimber Stainless Gold Match. It wouldn't shoot 7 straight rounds without jamming up real good. Not to mention every moving part felt like someone had poured sand into the gun. Yeah, I could have sent it back to Kimber. But personally, my view is that Kimber had their chance at making the gun right. And secondly I didn't care for the idea that they would be installing more of the same gritty, misfit parts in an attempt to fix it. That's when I decided it was time to take responsibility for the gun myself. But, that's just me.

Rushta, are you interested in gunsmithing? Good with mechanical things? Like expensive tools? If not, maybe Kimber can help you out.

-Lazarus

[pa_guns]

Hi

Every time I post anything about warranty or something like that I worry that it will be taken wrong.

I have absolutely no problem with fixing something that's still under warranty. I have done significant amounts of work on brand new pistols. It's part of why I buy 1911's - you can work on them if you want to. Often what I find after research here is that I can fix the problem better and faster than the factory.

My concern is that in the rush to "get it working" somebody doesn't realize what the next three steps down the road are or may be. More specifically somebody may not realize what the cost of the next couple steps may be in time or tools.

Bob

[Deacon Aegis]

Bob, I'd tend to agree, although I'd still poke Kimber and see if I could fanangle a hammer in exchange for the out of spec part. These little parts are expensive and you never know when having that extra bit comes in extraordinarily handy. ;)

[Spindly61]

Nice post Lazarus,made me smile. I love expensive tools .

[Kruzr]

Just remember to replace the original FP stop if you decide to send it back to Kimber. :)

Does the sear show symmetrical hammer hook marks?

[rushta]

I appreciate the replies. It is true I don't know my 1911s very well, and I would like to learn how to work on them. I am somewhat mechanically inclined, as I like to break cars and trucks and rebuild them, but I think I may send my pistol back to Kimber. I would like to perform my own gunsmithing, but I find myself lacking in funds for the expensive tools due to a certain blown up Trans Am motor.

I will take up the challenge at some point, but I think as a beginner I would like to start working on a pistol that I am upgrading rather than correcting a problem I might not understand fully or be equipped to repair.

Thanks again for all the replies, they are appreciated by a novice like myself.

[gottripletsNC]

Normally I would say that there is no better time to figger out the workings of the gun than now, experience is the best teacher. But with Kimber's reputation for tight pistols with close tolerances, I expect there maybe something wrong with the tangs on the frame or the hole for the pin that holds the hammer, or the hammer itself is warped. In any one of the cases, its probably above the novice and better off to have the warranty work done. Not to mention it might draw attention to a tooling problem they may have and noticed it yet.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Don't give up on the gunsmithing yet.

Fiddling with 1911's is at least as much fun as breaking trucks. That goes double in the middle if the winter if you don't have a heated garage :D.

The 1911 is a very good design for kitchen table gunsmith pistol. Every time I pick up a "modern" pistol I marvel at the 1911.

That said I think this is one that should go back to Kimber in as close to original condition as possible. The fix may be easy, but who knows. It could run into quite a few dollars.

Keep us posted !!

Bob

[rushta]

Well I experienced a 180 in my plans today. I live in San Diego and Kimber is in New York so it would cost me $93 to ship it through UPS. I have built a few AR15s so I am not entirely new to working on guns but nothing there required fitting. For what it would cost me to ship it to Kimber I could just replace the hammer, sear, and trigger with non MIM stuff. I am not really afraid of trying to fix it, it is mainly the lack of tools.

I was looking at getting Wilson Combat parts(A2 Sear, Ultralight Skeleton hammer and trigger), but that is mainly because I have been very impressed with their pistols. I shot a Tac Elite and a Professional and both seemed to be very high quality firearms.

If there are better parts for around the same price that I should use or if anyone could help me I would be most appreciative. I would like to learn how to do this, but the cost of shipping and your encouragement have persuaded me that now is the time.

[Kruzr]

Well I experienced a 180 in my plans today. I live in San Diego and Kimber is in New York so it would cost me $93 to ship it through UPS.

That's pretty strange. I've sent guns to Kimber from Orange County via FedEx for under 50 bucks insured. ????????

It has to go overnight, not overnight before 10:00 which is priority.

[pa_guns]

Hi

You might check the warranty. Most manufacturers pay shipping both ways on a warranty repair. You may have to put in for reimbursement, but they pay it.

Bob

[rushta]

I didn't check Fed Ex because the Kimber website said they are typically more expensive than UPS, but I think I would rather upgrade at this point anyway. The Kimber literature specifies that they only pay shipping for the return back to the customer so no luck there. It seems like the point made earlier about not putting the same lower quality parts back in seems entirely reasonable.

My question now is where I go from here if I want to fix it myself. I need to strip it down and measure everything as lazarus suggested, but what parts would I need other than the hammer if the holes spec out ok?

[pa_guns]

Hi

To bad about the shipping.

First step is to get comfortable with the pistol. Probably the best place to start is with a detail strip and re-assembly. There are some great web resources on how to do it. One of them's right at the top of this area.

If you can beg / borrow / obtain a digital readout caliper that's going to be a big help on measuring stuff.

Bob

[Spindly61]

Rushta,
I live in San Diego too. If you have some free time I can put the coffee on and we could go over your pistol. I have lots of measuring equipment.

[Lazarus]

There's an offer I couldn't refuse. I'll bet you can clear up your questions in no time over a little coffee. And, you get to use someone else's expensive tools!!!

-Lazarus

[rushta]

Spindly 61,
I would appreciate that very much. I would have to decline on the coffee though I appreciate the offer because I am a member of the same church that John Moses Browning was, but it would be really helpful for me to have somebody who knows what they are looking at go over it with me. I will send you a PM.

[Spindly61]

Sounds good. I'll have some Sprite in the refrig. then.

[Spindly61]

rushta will be coming over Sat. morning for a look see. I'm looking forward to it. I'll have him discussing thrust vectors with Tuner in no time. :butthead:

[pa_guns]

Hi

Hope there's a camera handy so we all can follow along !!!

Bob

[Spindly61]

i'll try paguns. I have a few spare hammers with matched sears. So finding the fault should be easy. If it a frame out of tolerance
there isn't much I can do. But hopefully he will walk away with a better understanding of function. Besides that we'll have fun too.
This is why I love this sport, you can walk up to anybody and they will talk to you about his or her pride and joy.

[rushta]

Well Spindly61 helped me out a ton. I now know how to strip and reassemble the 1911 all the way, and the hammer turned out to be not really an issue. It looks crooked but its within a few thousandths. He also stoned the sear and hammer hooks to clean them up a bit which resulted in a crisp 3.5 lb trigger pull. I put in the EGW stop and shot it and it seemed excellent (although my lee pro 1000 reloads turned out to be around 50% without powder), so until the hammer snaps off or something I won't lose sleep over it.

[Spindly61]

rushta,
It was my pleasure to be able to help you out and meet a
fellow member. It was first time being able to look over a Kimber in detail. All in all I was impressed with Kimbers machining. Slide fit was smooth and fairly tight. Vertical impact surface had the bowtie. The barrel was ground nice and seemed exceptional quality,etc,etc.
The hammer was slightly off,not so much leaning towards the left but hitting the firing pin stop a little out of square.
When the slide was pulled completely to the rear you could notice it more. Indicating one of the hammer holes in the frame was slightly fore or aft.
I couldn't do much about that so I decide to look at the alignment of sear and hammer to see how bad it was there.I got my Power Custom Series 1, set up and gave the hammer hooks a few light strokes with my fine India stone.The right hammer hook was slightly higher than the left but not bad. With a few very light strokes both were in contact. I also lightly stoned the mating faces of the hammer hooks by hand just enough to smooth them up.
On the sear I did not want to mess with it that much as the trigger pull was already at roughly 3 pounds (me guessing). I set my jig do that I was stoning right up to the mating surfaces. Everything was stoning even which to me meant internally things were not that far out. Put the external pins in the Pistol and checked mating and everything was very nice. Nothing a "boost wouldn't cure.
What rushta so graciously failed to mention is that it was my first time dealing with the Schwartz(sp) system. After some fumbling around and looking alot to see which way it went in I finally got it in. The extra part really adds to the fun of pin alignment. Rushta was very gracious and didn't fall off his chair giggling ,which I appreciated.
All in all it was a very pleasant way to spend a morning.
Rushta, pay attention to the new EGW firing pin stop to see how it is printing, it is a little off but not bad. If it causes any problems by all means call Kimber.
We measures trigger pull after reassembly and it came in at 3 1/2 lbs. and crisp. No creep, just under what i would prefer. A very nice target pistol pull. We also measured for a EGW barrel bushing using 0-1" micrometers and telescoping gages for the I.D.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Sounds like a good time was had by all.

The frame being off a little is one of the things you worry about when you go into one of these things. The kitchen table doesn't seem to have very many good hole mover tools on it. :D

From the description it sounds like the pistol is doing pretty darn well at this point. I'd go shoot the (what ever) out of it. Drop the EGW bushing in when it gets there.

Bob

[rushta]

Well now that I can strip the pistol I might just check the frame holes as suggested earlier in the thread with some digital calipers to see how far off we are looking at, then if I absolutely have to ship it to kimber... but I don't really want to. I love my trigger!

[John]

It was my pleasure to be able to help you out and meet a
fellow member.

Am I correct in assuming that when you two pigeons met, you were both wearing the M1911.ORG patches to identify each other? If not, this is a great disappointment! :) :D

Another happy customer from the "Unofficial M1911.ORG Help-Each-Other" team!

[Spindly61]

Sorry to be a big disappointment but I figured an address was sufficient. I did have several posts from this wonderful forum for rushta to take home with him. About 20 pages. Blatant groveling is not against the rules is it? :)

[John]

Nope, as long as credit is given where credit is due! And yes, you were a big disappointment. No patches? Either of you? Tsk, tsk, tsk!