1911TUNER for President

[wakani]

After taking apart the lefty, I found that 1911Tuner advice was right on. When the slide recoils back, toward the end of the travel, it jams the hammer into the grip safety. Marks are on the grip. Tuner I do appreciate the insight.

I checked the FP retainer and it does not extend beyond the bottom of the slide. Hammer too big? File that bad boy down?. Retainer too thick? Cannot get another "leftie" FP retainer. What did I get myself into?

Oh boy!

[1911Tuner]

If elected, I promise a 1911 in every household... :D

Are ya sure the hammer is makin' hard contact with the grip safety? When the hammer is cocked during fire, it doesn't ride the slide back smoothly. It gets slammed back past full cock, strikes the safety, and falls back to the slide...which then drops it onto the sear when it goes to battery.

If the hammer is in hard contact with the safety tang when the hammer is resting against the retracted slide, then it needs to be relieved. Filing a little undercut in the contact area will do, but you may also opt for cutting the spur a little shorter. I wouldn't get too caried away though. The spur adds mass to the hammer, which gives the firing pin a good smack.

Any sign of damage on the discinnector rail?

[Herb Clark]

Actually I think Tuner would make an excellent Secretary of Defense! :lm:

[Baldy]

He's got my vote...

[wakani]

If elected, I promise a 1911 in every household... :D
.... do not get too caried away though. The spur adds mass to the hammer, which gives the firing pin a good smack.Any sign of damage on the discinnector rail?

The mass of the hammer was also my concern. My plan is to take a bit off the spur, then a bit from the hammer face (above FP contact). Also took some nibs and bits off the slide in vicinity of the restraint, not sure manuf result of the slam against the impinged grip.

Disconnector rail seems ok.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/wakani/lefty1.jpg

[1911Tuner]

No sense in taking any off the hammer above the firing pin contact point. That won't keep the hammer from slamming back past full cock, but it may let the hammer fall too far against the slide and cause it to miss the sear when the slide drops it. It'll hit the grip safety, no mattery what you do. What you want is to give it clearance when the hammer flass back to the slide after cocking.

Shortening the spur a bit and undercutting it at the point of contact will relieve the bind without causing misfires unless there's another problem.
Overly strong firing pin spring...blockage in the firing pin channel...weak mainspring, etc.

[wakani]

Thanks. Think I have it. Trimmed off a bit of the spur, polished. The hammer I have, not sure what it is, SS, has about a 10-15 deg angle from vertical face that contacts firing pin, angles up about 1/4 inch to spur. This is what contacts the underbelly of the slide. Smoothed and polished this to a mirror finish and all seems well. Slide moves smoothly, contacts disconnector and that works fine. All else seems fine, e.g., grip safety. All safety issues are in place, save the nut behind the gun!


Off to the range tomorrow. Pray for me?

[pa_guns]

Hi

How about Tuner for King?

This is definitely a situation where going slow and taking a little bit off the hammer at a time is the way to go.

Bob

[wakani]

Hi How about Tuner for King?

I would support that. Would vote early and often!

Agree on mass removal. Did nothing to the operating surfaces, e.g., hammer face. Took off the spur just enough to give me about .010 clearance to grip. Deburred retainer.

I sincerely appreciate all your help here. It is a wonder to behold.

[7790314]

Can't remember the source but I once read that you could grind the hammer face until you get a perfect cock of the hammer to keep it from having to travel back forward to meet the sear tip. I tried it on one spur hammer gun I built and have never had a problem. Although, I'd be curious to hear other opinions on this.

[pa_guns]

Hi

The Wilson's DVD has a segment on fitting a hammer so it does not have to return at all to get back to the sear.

Bob

[John]

The mass of the hammer was also my concern. My plan is to take a bit off the spur, then a bit from the hammer face (above FP contact). Also took some nibs and bits off the slide in vicinity of the restraint, not sure manuf result of the slam against the impinged grip.

Disconnector rail seems ok.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/wakani/lefty1.jpg
It's either you are a lefty and have a totally left hand 1911 or your picture is posted backwards.

[1911Tuner]

Can't remember the source but I once read that you could grind the hammer face until you get a perfect cock of the hammer to keep it from having to travel back forward to meet the sear tip.

That once was pretty much standard practice when building up a target gun with a finely-honed trigger...in order to prevent wear and/or unnecessary damage to the sear primary angle from the hammer falling onto it after the cock.

There's no way to get a "perfect cocking" of the hammer because the hammer doesn't
ride the slide as some imagine. It's slammed back...bounces off the grip safety, and is stopped by the slide, which drops it back onto the sear as it rides forward off the hammer. Altering the hammer to provide the minimum distance of that drop made it
a kinder, gentler operation that goes a long way to preserving those precise, narrow engagement angles.

The drawback lies in overcutting the hammer to the point that it falls directly onto the sear after striking the grip safety...or soon wears to that point...which places the full, spring-driven energy of the hammer on the sear primary angle and hammer hooks. If the timing of that event is just so, it can even catch the sear before it fully resets, standing the hammer right on the edge of the hooks, which either produces hammer followdown, or a very ticklish trigger pull on the next shot...and I'm talkin' single-digit ounces.

When attempting this modification, leave at least .010 inch of drop from the slide rather than trying to get it just "perfect." A bit of wiggle room is always preferable to
a gun that stops working in the middle of a match or a 38-ounce, 1200 rpm .45 caliber submachinegun that goes into overdrive without warning.

[Lazarus]

I completely agree that tweaking the hammer/grip safety contact for minimum overtravel is not a good idea. The hardest thing for people to remember is that none of these precisely fitted parts operate in a demure and dainty way when the gun is actually used.

What is to say the same person won't try to eliminate trigger takeup and overtravel? Mechanical things don't operate that way. But wait! There is a way to eliminate these inconvenient clearance requirements. Electrical ignition. Man, that means you can have any type of trigger you want. Name your pull weight. No fussing with hammers and sears. But be sure you bring an extra battery with you.

-Lazarus

[wakani]

It's either you are a lefty and have a totally left hand 1911 or your picture is posted backwards.

A totally left handed 1911, built from gound up, so to speak, even the riflings are lefty, e.g., clockwise rotation from the breech.

[John]

There is a way to eliminate these inconvenient clearance requirements. Electrical ignition.

Brrr, this thought gave me the goose bumps!

A totally left handed 1911, built from gound up, so to speak, even the riflings are lefty, e.g., clockwise rotation from the breech.

Amazing, thanks for sharing.

Is the front sight missing? I can't see it there.

[1911Tuner]

even the riflings are lefty, e.g., clockwise rotation from the breech.


Have you figured out what the reason is for that...and why that the rifling in most American weapons have a right-hand twist, while the original rifling in the 1911, and all clones have a left-hand twist?

[wakani]

Brrr, this thought gave me the goose bumps! Amazing, thanks for sharing. Is the front sight missing? I can't see it there.

Amazing?? :scared: Well, John, it is YOUR fault. Had it not been for YOUR site, I would have never considered building a 1911. Truly. And thanks every so much.

Sight was not yet on when pic was taken. Now installed. And I think ready for range.

Related: Had no choice, no lefty 1911's available. Parts are sooo hard to come by.

[Lubaloy]

'most american weapons'
so the torque would tighten the barrel, not loosen.

'the original 1911's'
so the torque would move the gun into your hand.

:confused:

[wakani]

Have you figured out what the reason is for that...and why that the rifling in most American weapons have a right-hand twist, while the original rifling in the 1911, and all clones have a left-hand twist?

Tuner, no I do not know. We were talking about it at the range, no one seemed to know. It seems to be that clockwise rotation for a right hand gun would be desirable, and ccw for a lefty. Started out with a ccw barrel, but felt that since was making a lefty gun had to go all the way, ergo got a CW barrel.

[1911Tuner]

'most american weapons'
so the torque would tighten the barrel, not loosen.

'the original 1911's'
so the torque would move the gun into your hand.

:confused:

Bingo! 'Course...Lubaloy is a Sub Rosa Ringer, but he nailed it.

Shoot a standard 1911 in your left hand, and you'll notice a sharp torque to the right. You don't see it when shooting it right-handed because it torques into your palm, which offers more support and resistance.

So, It seems that RH rifling is more suited to southpaws, while the 1911 is
just "right"! :D

[John]

Wakani, this gun deserves a full report. Why don't you write one, giving us some details on what parts you used to build it? I am sure that there are plenty of other lefties 1911 shooters, who are interested in this creature.

[John]

Bingo! 'Course...Lubaloy is a Sub Rosa Ringer, but he nailed it.

Shoot a standard 1911 in your left hand, and you'll notice a sharp torque to the right. You don't see it when shooting it right-handed because it torques into your palm, which offers more support and resistance.

So, It seems that RH rifling is more suited to southpaws, while the 1911 is
just "right"!

Well, you are the President, if you say so, we have to take your word. LoRL :D :) :p

:lm:

[wakani]

Wakani, this gun deserves a full report. Why don't you write one, giving us some details on what parts you used to build it? I am sure that there are plenty of other lefties 1911 shooters, who are interested in this creature.

Not much to tell, really. But will get 'er together within few days.

1911Tuner:: Measured "free" clearance between spur and grip and it is .040, nominal. Clearance with slide fully aft, .010, nominal. Betcha initeria on recoil will close that gap, have new mainspring, standard 23 pounds. Me thinks that should be ok. What say you?

Still confused on the rifling. I thought CCW rotation (from breech) on the "normal" 1911 would tend to torque the gun away from your hand?

[1911Tuner]

1911Tuner:: Measured "free" clearance between spur and grip and it is .040, nominal. Clearance with slide fully aft, .010, nominal. Betcha initeria on recoil will close that gap, have new mainspring, standard 23 pounds. Me thinks that should be ok. What say you?

Still confused on the rifling. I thought CCW rotation (from breech) on the "normal" 1911 would tend to torque the gun away from your hand?

Still a little close, but .010 should be enough. As long as it's there.
Again...The hammer is slammed back past the full-cocked position and bounces off the safety tang, and gets stopped by the slide.

Nope. The torque with a CW(RH) twist will be to the left, into your left hand. CCW (LH) will torque it to the right.

[wakani]

... .... stopped by the slide.


Ahhh. the part I was not hearing. Yes, understand it now. :butthead: If not stopped by the slide, then what will stop it!!!! Yes! Lord have mercy, I am dense. :scared:

[1911Tuner]

Ahhh. the part I was not hearing. Yes, understand it now. If not stopped by the slide, then what will stop it!!!!

You have learned well, grasshopper!


If it rebounded directly back onto the sear, neither the sear nor the hammer hooks would live long and prosper.

[Cactus]

Tuner, you got my dang vote for President, based on the help you gave me tonight, and other times....PLUS, i like your statement.. "A 1911 in every home."

Does your campaign promise include ammo? :D



Cactus

[1911Tuner]

Does your campaign promise include ammo?

Nope. I'll end welfare except for the truly needy. Let the folks who are able...reload!

:lh:

I love that dang horse!

[Cactus]

Nope. I'll end welfare except for the truly needy. Let the folks who are able...reload!

:lh:

I love that dang horse!


Dang, spoken like a true "honest" politician !
I'm already at my reloading bench! :D

I love that horse too... ;)

in fact I am in the process to stick my boot in the middle of "stopping" the horse slaugther house's here in TX. Well i better not get cranked up on that one... But, any of you reading this, that want to dump your horse or buthcher it... We WILL buy or adopt them. We have plenty of W. TX pasture. We don't want to see them butchered so some one in Eroupe can sit at the table and eat it!


Cactus

[Herb Clark]

As a Lefty IDPA shooter, would there be much of an advantage in getting a barrel to twist my gun toward my palm? :confused:

[pa_guns]

Hi

Given the cost in tooling a rifling machine I'm not sure you can get a choice of left hand versus right hand twist.

I've been wrong before though ...

Bob

[Spindly61]

Right or left hand twists should be a simple matter as far as machining. Broaching a barrel is dragging a stationary cutting tool through the very slow turning barrel.The tool will follow the same direction as the round.Repeated passes are required. The machine will do the exact same thing as far as feed goes. Everything will just be set up 180 degrees opposite to include what way the chuck spins.If the tool is set up facing towards you as an operator and the chuck spinning towards the operator also.
Cutting is done by the tool coming towards you,travel of the tool will be from left to right
For opposite hand twist just turn the tool 180 degrees so the cutting surface of the tool is facing away from you.Turn the machine on in reverse. The chuck will now be turning away from you with cutting being done away from you. When the feed is engages the tool will still move from left to right while cutting.
Piece of cake.

[1911Tuner]

Spindly...Correct. Basically, rifling a barrel isn't so very different than cutting inside screw threads on a lathe, unless we're talkin' about hammer-forged barrels, which entails reverse-cutting the rifling on a mandrel and beating the barrel around it.

[Spindly61]

Ahh tuner you've done some single point threading then.

[1911Tuner]

Ahh tuner you've done some single point threading then.

Tuner<---Toolmaker by trade. ;)

[Spindly61]

I allways wondered why I understood you.
:lh:
I come from a little City in Ohio. Youngstown, 3rd. generation machinist. Pleasure to talk cutting steel,
takes me back aways. I like the horse too.

[1911Tuner]

Pleasure to talk cutting steel,
takes me back aways.

Oh yeah. If I had to be without a lathe, I'd be like a fish outta water. My mill got fried by lightening a while back, and I donated it to the local cummunity college for the lads to rewire and use in the shop... but I'm on the scrounge for another one.
Gettin' lazy...and blind in my old age. I want a Bridgeport with a 3-axis digital readout.

Second generation for me. The ol' man was a tool and die maker before his back gave out, and he went into engineering and tool design for AT&T (Then Western Electric.)
I was cuttin' steel before I was haired over. Once it gets into your blood, there just ain't no gettin' it out.

[Spindly61]

Nothing like the smell of a machine shop,or a barn. Hats off to you. I should have picked it out in your explanations of how things work in the 1911. The reverse engineering line of thought.

[1911Tuner]

Nothing like the smell of a machine shop,

I'm partial to KoolTool myself... ;)

[Spindly61]

Some of the old lead based lubricants gave a surface finish that made me proud of what I was. I still have "chip" scars on my throat and upper chest. Ever get a red hot chip go in your ear?
The sound of sizzling wax still makes me go into spasms. lol.

[1911Tuner]

Ever get a red hot chip go in your ear?

No. But I did almost set my hair on fire once... :scared:

[DanC]

Primaries were held here in Maryland. Unfortunately, I did not see a space to write 1911Tuner in on the ballot. Maybe I have to wait for the general election in November?

[wakani]

Okay, thanks to you all, esp Tuner, we, my 1911 and me, survived the range. Put about 5 boxes through it (250 rounds or so) had about 5 eject failures. Hollow points (Lawman) seemed to work best, about 75 of them without any failures.

Thanks again.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Maybe the pistol only likes left handed ammo :D .

When the brass failed to eject was there a pattern? Did they all stove pipe or something like that?

Bob

[wakani]

[QUOTE=pa_guns]... left handed ammo :D .


was there a pattern? Did they all stove pipe or something like that? .../QUOTE]

ROFLMAO! :lm:

Think there was no pattern. Range was zoo like, hunter safety day with 65 folk in class, concentration was tough. I was so excited that Tuner could diagnois a problem 500 miles away, esp as esoteric as this was, at least to me. Was so excited that it fed properly, the weapon did not freeze, plus I was helping the PYT in next shooting position with her wheel gun. Will clean up weapon and take it back to range next week. Take more care, and better group my ammo. Should be alone and have some time to carefully note what is going on. Report to follow.

[1911Tuner]

Hmmm...Lemme see now...Intermittent failures to extract and/or eject. Erratic ejection pattern. Extractor needs mo' tension, or it needs to move a few thousandths closer to the breechface centerline, or both. A FEW...as in 3 or 4 thou.

Try more tension first and see if it changes anything. Easy...Too much and it'll fail to go to battery.

[wakani]

... and see if it changes anything.


Extractor removed, cleaned and tired to bend it 3 or 4 thou. Think I did.

Back to the range and pushed 100 rounds of 235gr FMJ downrange with no incidents.

Still looking for some LH ammo, remember being sent off by uncle to find a left handed monkey wrench.. :D

Thanks again. Think I will purchase another extractor.

[jeff1124]

Extractor removed, cleaned and tired to bend it 3 or 4 thou. Think I did.

Back to the range and pushed 100 rounds of 235gr FMJ downrange with no incidents.

Still looking for some LH ammo, remember being sent off by uncle to find a left handed monkey wrench.. :D

Thanks again. Think I will purchase another extractor.

We used to send newbies to the elevator (one story building) to look for a left handed monkey wrench to remove the kniffling pin so that we'd have access to the muffler bearings. Worked well on some of the less mechanical types. LOL

[gottripletsNC]

I like to send the newbies on the FD to check the brake fluid on the firetrucks (airbrakes). It gets em every time.

[swampthang]

Ive seen green mason tenders look for the brick stretcher quite a few times!!!!

[1911Tuner]

left handed monkey wrench to remove the kniffling pin so that we'd have access to the muffler bearings.

No no no...NO! Ya gotta use a widget wrench for muffler bearings! LH monkey wrenches are for the bricket pipes in old farm houses!

[Deacon Aegis]

I lost a Hexagonal Oven Key somewhere along with 50 yards of flightline....


Tuner, ever thought about making a TV show?