Longer barrel = more accurate?

[AZ Mark]

Just in general, with otherwise similar guns, will a standard-size (5") always be more accurate than a Commander- sized or Compact model? Is the main difference going to be sight radius?

[Young-Kiwi]

Just in general, with otherwise similar guns, will a standard-size (5") always be more accurate than a Commander- sized or Compact model? Is the main difference going to be sight radius?


Personal observations :

In a ransom rest, the difference seems too little to care about. (but ransom tests mean nothing once you have to hold the pistol yourself)

This leaves sight radius and recoil characteristics.
Sight radius is somewhat important, and it does mean that sighting errors are magnifed. It's not less accurate, just less forgiving.

For me Recoil characteristics are the most important, not only how a lighter pistol may recoil a little more, but mostly how the pistol sits in your hand, and how it shifts in your hand under recoil.

[Northman81]

I was wondering about this myself, having seen a SA 'Long Slide' model.

Outside of the less forgiving to aim thing (which might be a plus if you're a dead shot, I'd imagine), and the weight / recoil thing, what other benefits would you get? There must be a couple of reasons why I've seen such a very low number of these...

[scooter]

I was wondering about this myself, having seen a SA 'Long Slide' model.

Outside of the less forgiving to aim thing (which might be a plus if you're a dead shot, I'd imagine), and the weight / recoil thing, what other benefits would you get? There must be a couple of reasons why I've seen such a very low number of these...Quick guess would be harder to conceal and higher cost.Most longslides I have seen are anything but inexpensivehttp://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon9.gif

[John]

Too many things affect accuracy. I have fired an Officers-length pistol, of a friend of mine in Las Vegas, some years ago, which was equipped with a Schuemann bull barrel and that thing was amazingly accurate. It even made me look like a good shooter :)

[carsten1911]

I was wondering about this myself, having seen a SA 'Long Slide' model.

Outside of the less forgiving to aim thing (which might be a plus if you're a dead shot, I'd imagine), and the weight / recoil thing, what other benefits would you get? There must be a couple of reasons why I've seen such a very low number of these...
Hi Northman,

dont take it as offense, for its just a matter of personal taste:
Longslide 1911 just dont LOOK like real pistols...(to me).

[Recon]

It doesn't seem like there are allot of longslides around but I do seem to run into them more and more. I was just looking over Caspian slides the other day and they have a 6" model now.

Here is a link to the one Rob Leatham has.

http://www.robleatham.com/vaultequipuspsalimited10.htm

The longer barrel would give you some additional velocity with a given load allowing you to back off slightly to make your power rating. One would have to try it to see if the difference has any benefit.

[ArmscorBA]

Longer barrel=longer slide=more weight+Longer sight picture=More accurate! :)
Ivan

[Mtrclass]

The different lengths (Officers, Commander, GM, Long Slide), assuming the same quality of parts and tolerances, will have the same mechnical accuracy potential. The longer guns will however be easier to shoot more accurately because of the longer sight radis.

[Hunter]

Well I will add my opinion here. A longer barrel has the potential for more accuracy. My Gold Cup Commander (4 1/4" barrel) is as accurate as several of my other Gold Cups (5"). I also have a Colt Compact (3 1/2" barrel) and though she is plenty accurate it will not hold the groups of my Gold Cups (I understand that barrel length is not the only difference in these pistols). My shooting buddy as the Springfield Micro (3" barrel) and it is almost on par with my Compact. The sight radius (as has been mentioned) also effects aiming (but plays no part in mechanical accuracy). I believe everything else being equal below a 4 1/4" barrel accuracy will suffer. My thoughts anyway.

[RickB]

I've been shooting a longslide .45 in IPSC matches for a couple of years, while shooting 5" and 3.5" guns in IDPA competition. I shoot the 6" gun the best, and I think it is entirely due to the longer sight radius, and road-hugging weight. I've never really done any accuracy testing, beyond sighting-in, but I'm sure any difference in mechanical accuracy is due to the fit of the individual barrels, and has nothing to do with the length. The short barrel/short grip gun is definitely more difficult to shoot well, and I attribute that to a less secure/consistent grip, shorter sight radius, and light(er) weight. But, it may be as mechanically accurate as the others.

[rides&shoots]

All things being equal - longer barrel = better accuracy...period

[carsten1911]

I dont think a longer barrel is more accurate...if you compare ONLY the barrels from a fixture.

BUT: With the absolute tolerances (bushing, lugs etc.) being equal in a 5 and a 6 inch barreled pistol, of course the angle a 6 inch barrel can move is smaller compared to a shorter barrel. So its not really the length of the barrel itself but the smaller angle of possible movement that will make the 6" barrel pistol more accurate.

And dont mix up accuracy with shootability: They do have nothing to do with each other! Muzzle-heavyness, sight radius etc. only contribute to shootability. Accuracy can only be reliably tested from a solid rest. And hand-shooting an extraordinary accurate gun might spread your shots all over teh target...because shootability might be miserable, by design or other reasons.

[Frank]

carsten1911,

I agree. A longer barrel may contribute to shootability, but it is not intrinsically more accurate than a shorter barrel.

DVC

[Canuck-IL]

So its not really the length of the barrel itself but the smaller angle of possible movement that will make the 6" barrel pistol more accurate.
Disagree - once it's properly in battery then it matters not what angle it swung through to get there...a well fit barrel is a well fit barrel. The angle of movement does contriubte to timing and feeding difficulties ... shorter barrel = a steeper angle in a reduced time = frequent problems with shorter than Commander guns.

Shootability does improve with increased sight radius and recoil control may, for some shooters, improve with added muzzle weight but, the inherent accuracy has to do not with length but rather with the barrel itself (test it from a fixture w/o the gun attached) and the way it is fitted...repeatability is constant return to the same in battery position, good barrel-to-slide fit.
/Bryan

[Joni Lynn]

The longer the barrel the more potential for some small defect or difference in the barrel to affect it's accuracy. Several of the magazines (for better or worse) in the last 20 or so years have tested rifles and handguns (by shortening the barrelsand recrowning) and found that shorter barrels have as much or more accuracy potential because of that. In the real world, sight radius and the weight of the gun as well as other ergonomic features will contribute to the longer barrel gun shooting better for most people most of the time. (in handguns)
Bullets also don't need a lot of barrel length to become stabilized, they do that pretty quickly once they hit the rifling.

[mr45]

... In the real world, sight radius and the weight of the gun as well as other ergonomic features will contribute to the longer barrel gun shooting better for most people most of the time. (in handguns)... And that's what really counts! Who needs a gun for a Ransom Rest? Guns are - or better should be - made for people's hands.
The biggest Les Baer dealer here in Germany told me some weeks ago, he sells nearly as many 6" guns as 5" guns. A 1911 is used over here mostly for accuracy shooting at 25 meters. The sight radius and the weight make the 6" guns the better performers for our matches. For me personally it is this 1" more of sight radius that helps my eyes to get gun and target in line.
As long as you don't do IPSC there is no need for gun to fit in a holster over here as we are not aloud to carry guns. :(
At a place where you can carry your gun and do a lot of shooting at shorter distances, why not take a 5" or shorter barrel. All the big custom and semi-custom manufacturers give the same accuracy guarantees for 5" and 6" guns - from rests... :)

[Joni Lynn]

Several times I've almost purchased a Ransom rest but never did. I bought my guns for myself and to have enjoyment from, not to clamp in a machine and waste ammo. Other than a once in awhile test for accuracy it would be one of the least used items around.

[carsten1911]

Disagree - once it's properly in battery then it matters not what angle it swung through to get there...a well fit barrel is a well fit barrel. The angle of movement does contriubte to timing and feeding difficulties ... shorter barrel = a steeper angle in a reduced time = frequent problems with shorter than Commander guns.

Shootability does improve with increased sight radius and recoil control may, for some shooters, improve with added muzzle weight but, the inherent accuracy has to do not with length but rather with the barrel itself (test it from a fixture w/o the gun attached) and the way it is fitted...repeatability is constant return to the same in battery position, good barrel-to-slide fit.
/Bryan


Hi Bryan,

well, I guess now it is my turn to disagree :p

Well fit does not mean that the barrel makes zero movement during the shot. Even in full battery the barrel can move. If e.g. the bushing is fit to the barrel with just a .00000001" clearence, the gun wont work. Any recoil-operated weapon needs some play to move...at least if you want to get a second shot out of the gun.

The most accurate rifle arent autoloaders but bolt actions. The same goes for pistols. Bolt action pistols, even wheelguns are more precise, just because the barrel doesnt move. And this is not by accident.

If you have the same clearance between barrel an bushing in two guns, one 6", one 5", the possible angle of movement is smaller in the 6" gun.

Of course you are right to say that it has nothing to do with the movement while unlocking...the bullet is on its way for a long time then, already.

Analogy: If you build a house and are able to keep measurements with 1 " of tolerance compared to the plan, the 30 foot house is much more out of angle than the 500 foot building. Of course the bigger the difference in length the more obvious it becomes.

Think in extremes: Imagine a gun with 2 " barrel and one with 10" barrel and give them both a bushing/ barrel clearence of 1/10". Hope it gets clearer now....
Both barrels might shot one hole groups from a rest, though, thats got nothing to do with the spread caused by the moving barrel.


Carsten

[carsten1911]

The longer the barrel the more potential for some small defect or difference in the barrel to affect it's accuracy. Several of the magazines (for better or worse) in the last 20 or so years have tested rifles and handguns (by shortening the barrelsand recrowning) and found that shorter barrels have as much or more accuracy potential because of that. In the real world, sight radius and the weight of the gun as well as other ergonomic features will contribute to the longer barrel gun shooting better for most people most of the time. (in handguns)
Bullets also don't need a lot of barrel length to become stabilized, they do that pretty quickly once they hit the rifling.

Hi Joni!
Thinking about this phenomen makes it pretty logic: Given the same materiel strength, the longer barrel is more prone to "whipping" than the shorter one. Thats the reason for bull barrels...less whipping with the same barrel length.

Might be interesting to find out just how short a barrel at what caliber can be to still stabilize the bullet.

In PPC / 1500 I have seen very impressive shot groups at 25 yards from 2" barelled wheelguns, though in pictures only....

Carsten

[Canuck-IL]

Good morning Carsten,
I gotta pursue this as I just don't see it the same way.
Well fit does not mean that the barrel makes zero movement during the shot I agree but the point I made was that they were equally well fit.

If you have the same clearance between barrel an bushing in two guns, one 6", one 5", the possible angle of movement is smaller in the 6" gun. Not if the back end locks up to the same tolerances on each.

If you build a house and are able to keep measurements with 1 " of tolerance compared to the plan, the 30 foot house is much more out of angle than the 500 foot building. Of course the bigger the difference in length the more obvious it becomes. Not sure what you mean by "out of angle" ... with a constant 1 degree offset, the end of the 500 ft building is more out of line than the end of the 30 foot house.

Analogy I prefer is a car door hinge...doesn't matter if it swings the door through a 3 foot arc or a 4 foot arc...once closed each door can have the same door-to-frame tolerances and be equally tight.

Bottom line that I think we agree on is that the barrels themselves are not more inherently accurate as a function of increasing length.

Take care
/Bryan

[carsten1911]

Hi Bryan,

soory, i got to go now...but will be back tomorrow to explain better than i did up to now!

[Mtrclass]

In pistols barrel length has no effect on the potential mechanical accuracy on the pistol. The exception to that might be where the barrel length drops below about 3/4" but that would be the result of not being able to properly stabilize the bullet because on the lack of enough time engaged with the rifling. And that is just a maybe, you would have to do a lot of testing to prove or disprove it.

If you take two barrel's (both of equal quality and within spec), say a 4" and a 6" and properly fit them in a 1911 (or whatever), and the key word here being "properly", there is no greater potential for accuracy in either barrel. This can be easily proved in a barrel fixture, and has been proved several times by different people.

The controlling factor is the fit of the barrel to the bushing, the bushing to the slide, the barrel to the slide stop, and the slide to the frame (the frame to slide fit is less important on a pistol where the sights are mounted on the slide then one where the sights are mounted to the frame).

Someone mentioned that there is always a clearance (usually between .001" and .003" depending on the intended use of the pistol) between the barrel and the bushing and suggested that this factor would adversely effect the accuracy in a shorter barrel. If the barrel, bushing, and lower lugs are properly fit then when the gun is completely in battery the lower lugs are pushing the barrel up into the slide in a way that angles the barrel in the bushing eliminating that clearance. As the slide moves rearward, after the bullet has left the barrel, the rear of the barrel cams downward centering the barrel in the bushing allowing for enough clearance for the barrel to move freely back and forth. As the barrel moves forward back into battery the barrel and bushing are again pushed into a zero clearance position, relative to the slide, which if properly fit will locate the barrel exactly in the same location for each shot. The only thing that matters, on a gun with sights mounted to the slide, is that the barrel returns to the same position relative to the slide for each shot.

The advantage of a longer barrel as it relates to accuracy is if the longer barrel affords a longer sight radius. Then the result is a pistol that is 'easier' to shoot more accurately but not one that has more accuracy potential. It falls into the same category as a better trigger or a better set of sights, it doesn't improve the accuracy potential of the pistol, but makes it easier to shoot more accurately.

Finally, regarding barrel flex or whip in pistols............ All barrels experience some flexing. As barrel length is shortened the effect becomes less and less. In theory then a shorter barrel would have the potential more accuracy then a longer barrel because flex would be less. The truth of the matter is flex or whip is part of life, that is, within reasonable parameters impossible to eliminate. So instead you design the barrel to flex the smallest amount possible and to flex is the same manner each time. Your ability to create a reproducable flex pattern results in the same accuracy improvements as does properly fitting the barrel. And in normal sized pistol barrel this is pretty easy to obtain. Also bull style barrel's for pistol's are designed the way they are mostly to move weight to the muzzle of the pistol, and to a much smaller degree to deal with the heat build up resulting from rapid fire. Also from a pistol manufactures point of view it is easier to manufacture the completed pistol because there are less parts, and less fitting required.

Ultimately, the quality of the ammo has a greater effect on the accuracy potential of a given pistol, assuming quality parts and proper fitting, then the type and length of the barrel.

[mr45]

Thank you very much, Bob! An article, that really explains some things to me. :)
... if the longer barrel affords a longer sight radius. Then the result is a pistol that is 'easier' to shoot more accurately but not one that has more accuracy potential... One of the most accurate sport pistols .22 caliber is the Walther GSP. It has the maximal sight radius of 9" but only a barrel length of 4 1/2" (115mm). The international rules would alow 6" pistols, but this one outperforms nearly all others for some decades now... :D Barrel length isn't everything, but sight radius helps a lot... :D

[carsten1911]

Good morning Carsten,
Not sure what you mean by "out of angle" ... with a constant 1 degree offset, the end of the 500 ft building is more out of line than the end of the 30 foot house.

Good morning Bryan,

I do see that some of the inclarity comes from my obviously less than perfect English, sorry for that. :o
Tonight I will visit my English-teachers and give them a good spanking for being THAT incompetent. ;)


What I wanted to say is:
Draw 2 lines, one is 5" and the other 6". At the end of both lines you draw a perpedcular short line, which is in both cases the same length, e.g. half an inch. So if you draw a line from the starting points of both lines, long and short, to the ends of the half inch line ( you should see 2 triangles by now) and then measure the smallest angle in both drawings, the angle in the 6" line drawing is just smaller => Smaller angle=> less deviation=> better accuracy (with both barrels being equally precis from a fixture)

And the precision of building the gun is measured in clearence (here: the short perpedicular line), not in any kind of angle...
I hope this explanation was clearer?????

Now lets continue: Since the barrel moves during the shot (a well fitted barrel just moves less than a bad fitted one) it moves to the extent the guns allows: Here are our clearings/ tolerances again! Both barrels got the same moving space...but the ANGLE is different for both barrels! => Different angle=> different spread!

Dont let anybody tell you the barrel does not move during the shot in a recoil operated pistol. This is just not true. :nono:
The things going on inside the gun after the ignition of the primer of the cartridge are pretty .... lively!


Bottom line that I think we agree on is that the barrels themselves are not more inherently accurate as a function of increasing length.

Take care
/Bryan

I do understand that this is the point everyone here sees the same....at least one for us all! Now should we have a beer on that? :D

[carsten1911]

In pistols barrel length has no effect on the potential mechanical accuracy on the pistol. The exception to that might be where the barrel length drops below about 3/4" but that would be the result of not being able to properly stabilize the bullet because on the lack of enough time engaged with the rifling. And that is just a maybe, you would have to do a lot of testing to prove or disprove it.

Now here is the number I waited for! Really that short, just 3/4 "? Amazing, but you live and learn! :) Thanks for this one!

If you take two barrel's (both of equal quality and within spec), say a 4" and a 6" and properly fit them in a 1911 (or whatever), and the key word here being "properly", there is no greater potential for accuracy in either barrel. This can be easily proved in a barrel fixture, and has been proved several times by different people.

I do see us all think in the same way on the "barrel accuracy from fixture"-topic...but we differ with the "accuracy from the pistol"-topic...(see my posting above...)


The advantage of a longer barrel as it relates to accuracy is if the longer barrel affords a longer sight radius. Then the result is a pistol that is 'easier' to shoot more accurately but not one that has more accuracy potential. It falls into the same category as a better trigger or a better set of sights, it doesn't improve the accuracy potential of the pistol, but makes it easier to shoot more accurately.

Now this is another topic, that´s shootability, which is basically a matter of personal preferences and ergonomics...

Also bull style barrel's for pistol's are designed the way they are mostly to move weight to the muzzle of the pistol, and to a much smaller degree to deal with the heat build up resulting from rapid fire. Also from a pistol manufactures point of view it is easier to manufacture the completed pistol because there are less parts, and less fitting required.

I do agree to most of that, bull barrels are lots more effectice in long guns....but they help in handguns, too, precisionwise. Might create other problems, though....

Ultimately, the quality of the ammo has a greater effect on the accuracy potential of a given pistol, assuming quality parts and proper fitting, then the type and length of the barrel.

Now this is another approach: The practical one :D . Nobody could argue on that, selected ammo always helps...