Reliability Testing

[garrettwc]

This thread was inspired by Ken Grant's Officers Model thread.

Let's discuss what and how we test a gun for reliability before making it our carry/self defense weapon.

I have read for years about testing your gun to make it reliable. I have seen round counts from the popular '200' in the gun rags, to as much as '1,000' by some hard use operator types. My 1911 went the first 200 without a hitch. I broke an extractor on round 204. Since then it has went well over a 1,000 but in small intervals with regular maintenance.

So what do we do to make sure we are OK? How many rounds? How quickly? What makes it a go or no go?

I'd also like to hear more about "Tuner's Hot and Dirty Reliability Test" so hopefully he'll chime in.

[wichaka]

When I build 1911's for duty use, I make sure the gun will function with at least 200-300 rounds of the carry duty ammo. One problem during the testing phase, and the gun will not go out the door.

Like anything..........you can test, check etc. til the cows come home, but ya just never know when a part may fail. Unless you want to x-ray every piece etc.

One can only make sure the gun is set up correctly, and is operating without failure for several hundred rounds before carrying.

There are even repair shops for Ferraris..........so even some of the best will fail sometimes. Nothing mechanical is a sure thing.

[garrettwc]

Roger that on using actual carry ammo.

How do you run your testing phase? Round counts don't tell the whole story. A pistol that get's 300 rounds in 50 round intervals over a period of weeks (typical of some shooters) will run differently than one that gets 300 rounds in a day or a few hours.

When you have a problem, such as a bad magazine, do you isolate that mag and continue with the testing from there, or do you go back to square one and start over?

[wichaka]

I'll run it in 100-200+ round tests.........clean, then go at it again.

Just like Wilson, Baer etc., they cant test their guns over a period of weeks. They have to do some basic testing and get the gun shipped.
My testing is over the period of a day or so........but then again, we're mixing a bit of apples & oranges here. All the parts on my builds are hand fitted, with a factory production gun, I would advise testing it over a week or more.........just to make sure all the bugs are gone.
As you pointed out in your first post, right after round 200, you had a failure..........so it goes to show, you still never know.

There's a member on here 'jazor' with whom I went thru a Springfield Loaded, and in the 'test' section of forum, I put on a Caspian light rail for him.
Well we went to a USPSA match last Sunday with that exact pistol, and the bottom lug of the barrel cracked and jammed the gun.......this was his duty gun........UGH! I'll try to remember to post a pic of it when I get home.

So one never will really get anything 100%, but I think we can wring out most of the problems by 400-500 rounds. My thought is, if you still have problems after that........there's something wrong that REALLY needs to be addressed.

Also, when experiencing a problem during my testing........i.e. FTF, FTE, etc., one has to diagnose right away to find the cause. If it's mag related, then yes the test goes on.

[garrettwc]

So one never will really get anything 100%,
That's what backup guns are for. ;)
but I think we can wring out most of the problems by 400-500 rounds. My thought is, if you still have problems after that........there's something wrong that REALLY needs to be addressed.
True. However, I think we may need to push them a little harder, get them "hot and dirty" as Tuner calls it.

I know of people who have guns that have hundreds of leisurely range rounds through their guns, but had their guns puke out on them the first day of a training class because they had never pushed it hard enough.

If you figure that the typical training class is 1000-1500 rounds in two 8 hour days, that's probably about 100-200 rounds an hour, so a 500 round test should be done in one day to say the gun is good for hard use.

After that, I think you would detail strip it, clean and inspect, reassemble and relube and you would be good to go. What do you think?

[wichaka]

I agree there.

If you run 200+ rounds thru it right after another, you'll get it hot & dirty. Then let it cool.......clean, detail strip, inspect it, and go after it again with another 200+.........I would feel comfortable letting it go out the door.

The problem with production guns.......is I would not feel comfortable with any of them, until I detail stripped it, did a realiability look over first before any testing.

But I think we're on the same page.

Hmmmmm awful quiet in this here thread garrett, me thinks we could have done this conversation over the phone my friend........ :D

[pa_guns]

Hi

Obviously to quiet, so lets create a bit of noise ....

The beyond all reason checkout procedure:

1) Make sure it runs ok when dripping with lube (50 rounds)
2) Make sure it runs marginally lubed and very clean (100 rounds)
3) Make sure it runs after very dirty ammo and marginal lube (200 rounds). For real fun try some dryer lint ....
4) Check each of the mags after they have sat for 10 days with a full load of rounds in them
5) Check with hollow points, FMJ, target ammo and hot ammo. (In addition to the normal carry ammo) 50 rounds each.
6) Check it hot, dry, and dusty (not hard this time of year) and cold, damp, and mucky(use a bag of ice) 50 rounds each.
7) With the pistol hot and properly lubed push three mags through it as fast as you can feed them (don't do this on a regular basis!!).

The idea here is to check it beyond the range of any normal carry enviroment. At each stage check out includes such fun stuff as safety and disconnecter function. Trigger pull should stay consistent throughout. The holster(s) is/are part of the pistol and should be used throughout.

After it's been through all of the above BS carefully check it out (as in with some magnification) after a detail strip.

This is a whole lot of crazy testing. It's no guarantee against breakage, just that the pistol set up right.

That should heat things up a bit. I find it imposable to believe that somebody won't take major issue with some of the above.

Bob

[Hunter]

I usually test my 1911s with 185 LSWC and 230 Federal Hydra Shocks (my carry ammunition). Before I will carry a 1911 I want to run at least 200 185 LSWC and a few magazines of Hydra Shocks with out 1 failure (after break in). If it will feed 185 LSWC it should feed anything. I test them clean and lubricated (as they would be if I was carrying it) but no relubricating or cleaning during testing. The first thing I do with a new 1911 is detail strip and give her a once over. After that it is test time at the range. After I am done I will do another detail strip (it needs to be cleaned anyway) and check out every thing again. So far I have not had a Colt fail the test. There is never any guarantees with a mechanical device. The way I see it take all the precautions you can and keep another pistol in the truck (or your pocket). I have shot my Colt Gold Cup Trophy countless times with all sorts of ammunition and have had 1 failure (FTRTB). Come to find out the ammunition was way out of spec and would not go into a go no go gauge. I have all the confidence in the world with that pistol.

[scooter]

ANY firearm can malfunction at ANY time and usually the WORST time. I was trained from day 1 of firearms training at the academy....to practice clearing a malfunction.....BUGs are great but do you carry as much ammo for it as your primary?are you gonna just drop your primary (with 3-4 extra mags) for a bug with 1-2? reliability is needed in a carry/duty sidearm but familiarity and practice with it are JUST AS IMPORTANT (IMO).http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

[pa_guns]

Hi

I don't think any of us are arguing that you can guarantee a pistol will be 100% reliable.

As I understood the original question the desire is for a testing procedure that shows a pistol is ready to be let loose in the real world. As with anything procedures can go from mild to wild and still not be perfect.

Bob

[OD*]

Couple excellent points there Scooter.


Normally it had been 500 (HPs & Ball) trouble free rounds (not necessarily at the same session) before I'd carry.
The last couple of pistols I've went as far as 2000 without cleaning, just to see if they would. They did. ;)

[1911Tuner]

Watched for awhile and thought I'd add a little to the thread.

Before I'll trust one for carry:

200 rounds of factory ball (cheap) as a preliminary check. Any feed/return to battery problems are assigned to the magazine in use. I isolate that magazine and immediately try to duplicate the failure. If none is noted, I isolate it and continue. If the same failure is noted with two or more other magazines, I blame the gun and work to resolve the malfunction...and return with only the magazines that it failed with, simply to eliminate any variable. If no malfunctions are noted, I move on to the next phase.

200 rounds of whatever ammo that I plan to carry, with whatever magazines that are assigned to the gun...generally 5 per gun..and so marked..and the test is abusive.

Starting with a clean gun, lightly oiled...not dripping wet...the gun is fired until scorching hot, and allowed to cool for 5-10 minutes, depending on the ambient temperature. Then the gun is fired with as loose and as limp a grip as I can manage...basically cradled on the web of my hand with only my thumb and index finger for support. Two magazines to slidelock. Magazine three...Two rounds straight up with a moderate one-hand grip...two rounds with the gun canted mcounter-clockwise to 45 degrees...Two rounds with the gun held upside down...and the final round back to straight up.

Finally, one full magazine starting from slidelock, loaded by thumbing the slidelock. For this one, the recoil spring is no more than 12 pounds. The gun must feed, return to battery, and fully function to slidelock.

Any noted failures to slidelock are generally assigned to the magazine. The magazine is tested with 2 rounds for 10 cycles. If no other failures are noted, I figure that it was a fluke. If one is noted, the magazine is tuned to
function to slidelock, and forgotten. I don't rely on the slide to lock to notify me that I'm out of ammo, and consider running the gun to slidelock in a fight
as an indication that I'm royally screwed. I do want it to function...but I don't trust it, and I'd rather depend on my own brain to tell me that it;s time to reload than depend on a mechanical device that could fail. Better for YOU to decide when to reload than have the gun decide for you.

[John]

If you would allow me, to add a small comment here.

The testing procedure should be tuned to the owner. For example, why should you bother testing your firearm full of sand, if you are never going to be in ... Iraq? I mean a military person has other requirements from his firearm than me or another city person.

More or less, I do Johnny's routine (with some small variations) twice a year. No dusting the gun, or burrying it in the sand and then firing. No putting it in the ice box and then firing it. No submerging it in sea water and then firing. I am never going to carry a pistol which has been treated in that way, so why bother checking if it works in that condition?

[pa_guns]

Hi

I would avoid things like sand and salt water that will damage the pistol. The idea is to test it not to destroy it. Even if it is going to be used in the desert there are things that are less abrasive than sand that will give you a pretty good idea what will happen in a dirty environment. Dryer lint is still my favorite.

Bob

[1911Tuner]

Bob...Actually dryer lint is a very good test medium. Carry a pistol for about three months, and when ya tear it down, the amount of lint that gets in through the cracks is an eye-opener. If you have an air compressor, you can keep a lot of it down. A quick hose-out about every week or two is my practice.

[garrettwc]

OD*, I think the ideal may be somewhere between the two extremes. As I alluded to in my post about training classes. The ones that really push you out of your comfort zone are 1,000 rounds in two days. Whether the gun is a 1911 or an AR, the good, the bad, and the ugly will usually show up. Range sessions are typically run straight through and only have minimal time when you are not on the line. So anything more than a relube takes too long. Oddly enough you will also learn if you have chosen the right lube. ;)

John, I understand what you are saying about testing for the environment you estimate you will be in. But consider if you will a NYC cop on 9/11 when the air is filled with fine dust. That's certainly not normal environment. Or a Texas cop who goes to New Orleans after the hurricane and suddenly finds himself in an unfamiliar tropical environment. You don't always get to prepare for the environment you we will be in today. Wouldn't it be a comfort to know your equipment is up to it. One less thing to worry about.

[John]

I totally agree with you, but cops and civilians do not have the same requirements from their guns. An LEO (as you correctly point out) can work in a variety of environments and he/she'd better make sure that his/her firearms work perfectly in each and every one of them. A civilian's pistol however will seldom see the same conditions and if there is any chance that it will, then by all means you should make sure it works under these conditions.

All I was saying (and apologies if it was not made clear) is that some folks go to the extreme to make sure their gun is reliable, in conditions they will never meet. It can't hurt, but I find it a waste of time and money.

[Gammon]

I go through a lot of 200 gr swc lead loads at IPSC major velocities, so that is what I use for break in and reliability testing. I shoot at least 200 rounds per session and usually more like 300. After the initial cleaning, prior to firing the pistol for the first time, it isn't cleaned again until well past the 500 round mark, but lubed as necessary. I have been pleasantly surprised with the number of stock guns that have passed this test with flying colors. Unfortunately, I have become aware of several pistols that will feed 200 gr swcs flawlessly, but will choke on a certain brand of hollow points. If you really want to be sure, you should conduct a "reliability test" with the ammo you intend to carry. This is expensive, but what is your life worth?

[Jammer Six]

There is one point here that will make Tuner cringe, swallow and then holler, but I learned it from working on my milspecs.

When a trigger has been worked on, when an ignition system has been altered, if it hasn't been done expertly, (thanks, Chuck!) it can be a dangerous automatic weapon masquerading as a safe 1911. I won't carry a weapon if there is a chance that it may follow, because with my luck, it would go full auto just when I needed it most.

A dangerous ignition system can function thousands of times with live rounds, and it can pass basic bench tests with flying colors. I know. I had just such a weapon. I still shudder when I remember the day I discovered it.

However.

If you cradle a weapon in a loose firing grip, and rack the slide HARD, violently, and let it drop on an empty chamber, a dangerous ignition system that will pass all other tests, and give all the appearences of a safe, sane weapon can reveal itself, and fall to half cock. Doesn't happen every time. Mine have to go ten such drops before I'll carry it.

Since learning that, I've used it to reveal several people that I thought were genuinely knowledgable about the 1911 at my range, with a number of responses.

My favorite one was "any good trigger will do that if you rack it that hard!"

Well, no.

However, we then went through four other weapons that that shooter owned, all of which he had worked on, and they all followed when tested in that fashion, but would not follow (yet) otherwise.

It shouldn't be possible to make a 1911 hammer fall to half cock, no matter what you do.

Every two or two and a half pound "special, tactical competition uber light EXPERT" trigger I've seen will fall to half cock if racked in this fashion. Won't have one.

Neither of the weapons I carry can be made to follow. Then again, they're both set at four and a half pounds.

I understand the risk to the weapon with such a test, and I want to point out that you should never do this to anyone else's weapon without their express permission, because it does do damage to the weapon every time it's done.

I've talked a few IPSC "experts" into trying it on their four or five ounce triggers, though, by demonstrating on my weapon, and then I thoroughly enjoyed their expression when their hammer followed. :D

[pa_guns]

Hi

The idea of a two pound trigger on a carry 1911 makes me cringe no matter how you test it.

That said, it's up to the individual to *understand* the risk and make their own choice. It's the *understand* part we often have trouble with.

Bob

[1911Tuner]

Hi

The idea of a two pound trigger on a carry 1911 makes me cringe no matter how you test it.

That said, it's up to the individual to *understand* the risk and make their own choice. It's the *understand* part we often have trouble with.

Bob

Amen and Amen! I don't even want a 2-pound trigger on a target pistol!

[OD*]

Garrett,

We are on the same page sir. ;)

[garrettwc]

All I was saying (and apologies if it was not made clear) is that some folks go to the extreme to make sure their gun is reliable, in conditions they will never meet. It can't hurt, but I find it a waste of time and money.
John, no need to apologize. I think we are both headed to the same destination, just on different roads. ;)

As mentioned, there are folks who take it to the extreme and try to break the gun before they will trust it. Then there are the folks who buy a box of whatever is on sale, run a couple of mags through it, and then stick it in the bedside drawer.

My purpose with the thread is to stimulate thought and discussion on what is valid testing and why. Armed with the hows and whys we can then use the info to analyze our own situation and determine what works best for us.

[Jammer Six]

I don't think it's a waste.

You don't know where it will happen.

Maybe you WILL be confronted in a nice, quiet, well lit store by a bad guy at 21 feet.

Or maybe you'll get blindsided, in the rain, at night, and take a blow to the side of the head before you know anyone is there. Maybe the stars you'll see will be your first clue something is wrong. Maybe you'll react with shaking hands, fumble the draw, fall to your knees in the mud, and root through the puddle to find your dropped weapon by feel.

Don't talk to me about situational awareness, because uber tactical super heroes don't really exist. We're humans.

If you're fast enough to find it, in the bottom of the puddle, it better work.

It needs to work with a limp wrist because EVERYONE'S wrist is limp in the seconds immediately following a serious wound, like a gunshot, a stabbing, or a blow to the head.

Won't have a Glock for exactly that reason- Glock's don't like limp wrists, and an attack that comes close can create exactly that, no matter who you are.

At least if you drop it in the snow, you can see the hole in the snow...

[Gammon]

Light triggers have their place on competition pistols. I set my triggers at about 2.5 lbs on my IPSC and steel guns. I have not had one follow in many thousands of rounds. I guess that makes me an "IPSC expert".

[pa_guns]

Hi

I have and have had 45's with light triggers. They are something that makes sense on target guns. You do need to understand what you have though.

The range is a very different environment than what a carry gun sees. No matter how hard you try to make competition like the real world it's still the range. A pistol going full auto is not acceptable in either case, but I have never seen that problem with the pistols I have owned.

Bob