slidestop questions

[Boogalou]

One of the axioms concerning the use of heavier recoil springs is the potential damage the slidestop endures as the slide goes into battery. There is also the conventional wisdom that the shooter should use the heaviest recoil spring that still allows the gun to work reliably and not send casings into the next county. Pistol makers of course have their own recommended ratings, based I believe on the amount of pounding they feel the slide & frame can absorb with standard ammo when the slide is retracting, and possibly on the aforementioned concern over slidestop breakage.

In the grand scheme of things, based on variables like mainspring weight, power of cartridges, magazine spring tension, and anything else that would affect the speed of the slide, are small deviations from recommended settings anything to get worked up over concerning the lifespan of your slidestop?

[wichaka]

Wether your cases go into the next county, should not be a factor in choosing the weight of a recoil spring. As long as they get out of the port and not leave your forehead disfigured, is something to celebrate.

A few years back I had access to a tool that measures spring weight, and here's what I found;

Most Gov. sized 1911's with factory springs run between just above 14lbs up to over 16lbs. Commanders from a bit over 16lbs to close to 19.

Now if the manufactureers have started to use brand name springs, then the above may or may not be still true today.

When Browning invented the 1911, he fiddled with lighter that 16lb springs. Remember that back in 1911, the pistols had some softer metals..........they hardened the parts of the slide where the impact was and left the rest as is.

Boogalou wrote;
In the grand scheme of things, based on variables like mainspring weight, power of cartridges, magazine spring tension, and anything else that would affect the speed of the slide, are small deviations from recommended settings anything to get worked up over concerning the lifespan of your slidestop?

The above things you mention are in no way "small deviations" they can be major, depending on many factors.......including the quality of the gun itself in terms of barrel lock up, extractor tension and prep, ejector prep, and the list goes on..........and don't forget magazines as well. They are a removeable part of the 1911 firing system.

When you talk about stiffer i.e. heavier springs, they recoil back slower, but slam home faster and harder. So that in itself may cause some problems, not only with wear & tear on the gun, but function and accuracy as well.

When the sldie recoils back slow, there's no problem with that........it's when it goes forward. The slide will return to battery faster. If your magazine springs are not up to the task, you'll either get a jam, or just ride right over the top of the round and end up with an empty chamber. I've seen both.....
You end up with a jam because the mag spring doesn't have enough poop to push the next round up fast enough to keep up with the faster moving slide.
And to directly answer your question, yes I have seen 3 things happen when using a stiffer recoil springs. Cracked frame, battered lower barrel lugs, and damaged slide stop pins. This of course also is in conjunction with two things.........the quality of the above parts mentioned, and sometimes how they were fitted in/to the gun. This also depends on how often, how many rounds and what kind of rounds are put thru your gun.

Lastly, when you use heavier recoil springs.......the front of the gun will dip down causing slower follow up shots because the front sight dips down too far from the slamming home of the slide upon retuning home to battery.

So to end this novel...........there are many other factors to consider when changing your springs.........any of the springs in the firing system. As you change one thing on thses guns, and it can, and most times affect other parts/functions of the gun.

Hope this helps.......

[robot1911]

Well now, you just received some good advice from one who knows whereof he speaks. So let me add a little to it. If you'll use a factory mainspring (23#) and one of those EGW square bottom firing pin stops with a very slight bevel (.026), you can use a much lighter recoil spring and thus reduce the probability of the damage just described by our Moderator.

Bob

[wichaka]

Excellent point..........should have added that.

[robot1911]

Not to worry. Sometimes even the monkey falls out of the tree.

[Gammon]

The bottom line is that you only need enough spring to operate the pistol reliably with the ammo you are using. More is not necessarily better when it comes to recoil spring weight.
I use IPSC major loads for most of my shooting and use 10 lb springs in my bull barreled .40 Para and 12 lb springs in my .45 long slide. I have yet to damage a shock buff; the slides barely leave a mark on them. With these loads heavier springs aren't necessary.

[AJV45]

Funny, this original question has been concernin me for some time also. I have a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. Never had a single malfunction through it. I love it. But it does have a 18.5# variable recoil spring in it. I always thought this was too heavy for the barrel lugs and slidestop pin. Today, I ran a 17# conventional Wolff spring through it and it worked flawlessly. I only shoot 230grain ammo. The only difference was the brass ejected between 6-12 feet away. Should I continue to use a 18.5# variable that Baer recommends or swith to the softer 17# conventional that I tried today?? Help, I'm confused!!! thanks.

P.S. Why do some custom manufacturers use heavier springs in their guns?

[robot1911]

"some custom manufacturers use heavier springs in their guns?"

A heavier recoil spring will overcome minor build deficiencies that could cause failure to feed problems.

If I were you, I'd read my prior post re mainspring and firing pin stop. Not only will your pistol appreciate it, but it will feel like a different gun. Try it...you'll like it!

Bob

[Hawkmoon]

Funny, this original question has been concernin me for some time also. I have a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. Never had a single malfunction through it. I love it. But it does have a 18.5# variable recoil spring in it. I always thought this was too heavy for the barrel lugs and slidestop pin. Today, I ran a 17# conventional Wolff spring through it and it worked flawlessly. I only shoot 230grain ammo. The only difference was the brass ejected between 6-12 feet away. Should I continue to use a 18.5# variable that Baer recommends or swith to the softer 17# conventional that I tried today?? Help, I'm confused!!! thanks.

P.S. Why do some custom manufacturers use heavier springs in their guns?
Don't try to compare a variable rate spring against a fixed rate spring.

When we talk about a recoil spring being a 16-pound spring, we are not really talking about the spring "rate." What we are talking about is the spring force that is stored when the spring is fully compressed. The term "rate" refers to how the force increases as the spring gets compressed.

As a f'rinstance, let's make up a gun and a spring: the spring goes through a range of movement of 5", and when fully compressed it scales 15 pounds. Of course, like a 1911, our hypothetical spring in our hypothetical pistol requires some compression to get it into the pistol even with the slide in battery. Let's say that in a spring measuring jig this initial tension would be 5 pounds.

So as the slide goes through 5" of movement, compressing the spring and then allowing it to expand, the spring goes from 5 pounds to 15 pounds. So the spring "rate" is 2 pounds per inch. This remains constant over the full range on motion of the spring.

Not so with a variable rate spring. With a variable rate spring, typically they are softer when mostly uncompressed, and as they compress they become incrementally stiffer. In other words, the "rate" (not the "rating") is not constant. With the fixed rate spring, it takes 2 pounds more to move it 1", regardless if thats from 5" to 4" of length, or from 2" to 1" of length.

With a variable rate spring, that first inch of movement might require only 1 pound of force. The second inch takes 1-1/2 pounds, the third inch takes 2 pounds, the next inch takes 2-1/2 pounds, and the last inch takes 3 pounds. It still adds up to 10 pounds to move through 5 inches, but the way it happens is very different. The pistol timing will be very different, because the initial acceleration of the slide as it starts to move out of battery will be quicker. Conversely, the final push as the slide and barrel return to battery will be softer than with a fixed rate spring of the same ultimate rating.

[Gammon]

Shame on you, spring rate has nothing to do with timing; Ask Tuner. I have used both standard and variable springs and can't tell the difference. Personally, I don't think there is any; the momentum of the slide will smooth out the cycle and both types will perform the same.

[AJV45]

Don't try to compare a variable rate spring against a fixed rate spring.

When we talk about a recoil spring being a 16-pound spring, we are not really talking about the spring "rate." What we are talking about is the spring force that is stored when the spring is fully compressed. The term "rate" refers to how the force increases as the spring gets compressed.

As a f'rinstance, let's make up a gun and a spring: the spring goes through a range of movement of 5", and when fully compressed it scales 15 pounds. Of course, like a 1911, our hypothetical spring in our hypothetical pistol requires some compression to get it into the pistol even with the slide in battery. Let's say that in a spring measuring jig this initial tension would be 5 pounds.

So as the slide goes through 5" of movement, compressing the spring and then allowing it to expand, the spring goes from 5 pounds to 15 pounds. So the spring "rate" is 2 pounds per inch. This remains constant over the full range on motion of the spring.

Not so with a variable rate spring. With a variable rate spring, typically they are softer when mostly uncompressed, and as they compress they become incrementally stiffer. In other words, the "rate" (not the "rating") is not constant. With the fixed rate spring, it takes 2 pounds more to move it 1", regardless if thats from 5" to 4" of length, or from 2" to 1" of length.

With a variable rate spring, that first inch of movement might require only 1 pound of force. The second inch takes 1-1/2 pounds, the third inch takes 2 pounds, the next inch takes 2-1/2 pounds, and the last inch takes 3 pounds. It still adds up to 10 pounds to move through 5 inches, but the way it happens is very different. The pistol timing will be very different, because the initial acceleration of the slide as it starts to move out of battery will be quicker. Conversely, the final push as the slide and barrel return to battery will be softer than with a fixed rate spring of the same ultimate rating.

I understand how all this works, I'm just confused if the 18.5# variable spring that Baer uses is going to batter my slidestop and barrel lugs over time. Is it overkill, or would a softer spring be better? Like i said, the 17# conventional I tried works fine, only difference is the brass ejects farther. Just looking for opinions.

[Hawkmoon]

The point of that long-winded explanation was to explain why you should not do exactly what you are doing: compare a fixed rate spring to a variable rate spring. The variable rate spring is NOT exerting anywhere near as much force on the slide when it returns to battery as a fixed rate spring of similar rate. In point of fact, the 18.5# variable spring probably results in a softer "landing" than the fixed rate 17# spring.

[AJV45]

The point of that long-winded explanation was to explain why you should not do exactly what you are doing: compare a fixed rate spring to a variable rate spring. The variable rate spring is NOT exerting anywhere near as much force on the slide when it returns to battery as a fixed rate spring of similar rate. In point of fact, the 18.5# variable spring probably results in a softer "landing" than the fixed rate 17# spring.

thank you. I am only worried, cause I don't want to do any significant damage to the lugs and slidestop pin. I guess, the guys at Les Baer know what they're doing. I did NOT know however, that the variable springs do in fact provide a "softer landing". Maybe that's why Baer uses variable springs. To make sure the slide has enough oomph to chamber a round from the mag, but to be softer on the lugs. Is that the way I should be understanding this?

[Lazarus]

Sorry I'm a bit late on this one, but I wanted to add my 2 cents worth. There are a couple of different discussions going on in this thread - I only want to comment on one of them and that is AJV's original question about the 18.5 pound spring. I'm going to begin by admitting publicly that before I knew better, I mistakenly bought into the notion that a heavier recoil spring was a great idea for "saving the frame". It seemed at the time that every custom gun I saw had extra heavy recoil springs. :nono: Bob has nailed it already, but he is being very diplomatic.

AJV, I also owned a TR and so I'll just tell you right now why I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. Somehow the myth started that a fiercly tight slide equalled great custom gunsmithing. And people couldn't line up fast enough to see whose slide was tighter. I could barely cycle my slide by hand unless I had just eaten a power breakfast. To see exactly what was so tight, I removed the barrel and frame parts: the slide to frame fit was actually pretty loose! That poor barrel was "jam fitted" to make everything extremely tight when cycling. Nothing less than an 18 pound spring would put the slide back into battery - some folks found that 20 or 22 pounders were necessary to do the job.

First priority would be to make sure that the barrel is fit up correctly. That might mean a new barrel (it did for me). Then a standard 16 pound spring will be just the ticket.

-Lazarus

[1911Tuner]

That poor barrel was "jam fitted" to make everything extremely tight when cycling. Nothing less than an 18 pound spring would put the slide back into battery

Lazurus...Too bad about that pistol. You coulda slicked it up in fine fashion for about five bucks and 30 minutes of your time.

The reason behind the (IMHO) overly-tight barrel fit is accuracy. Seems that right behind tight slide to frame fit, ragged, one-hole groups are the rage, and everybody wants a 1911 pistol that'll shoot groups like that whether they can shoot that well or not. Accuracy's fine, and I like all I can get as long as I don't have to sacrifice reliability to get it. A slow-fire bullseye gun that has to shoot into an inch or less at 50 yards won't get you shot if it fails to go to battery...but I can't shoot into an inch at 50 yards from sandbags...and I sure can't hit a shirt button in the dark at 15 feet when the man wearin' the shirt is tryin' to kill me...nor do I need to. What I need more than anything is for the gun to work. Pick any one of my carry guns. Most have a hand-fitted premium barrel, and many have been tightened up and refitted. They may shoot 3 inches at 50 yards from the bags on a good day, assuming good ammo and a steady hand...but I wouldn't bet on it. What I will bet on is that they'll run.


None of this is to suggest that a 1911 needs to sound like a baby's rattler in order to be reliable. In fact, too loose can be just as persnickety as too tight...and the wide spaces are more apt to let bigger pieces of grit and dirt into the works. Loose fit is like Brylcreem...A little dab'll do ya.